Please be Dan Crawford tonight

[kg_veteran]

Tell it to your owner.

Just because he owns my favorite team doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he has said in the past, does it?

Also, re: his recent blog entry, it had nothing to do with a specific game, did it? It seemed to me he was making a comment on how to improve the playoff officiating system as a whole. My point is, it's not like he was writing a blog entry about how Game 1 was a rip off and the Mavs got screwed or anything.

[FromWayDowntown]

Blaming the refs for losses is the American way, I guess. Nothing is ever "my fault." Somebody else is to blame.

If the Spurs had made the plays that were within their control in Games 3 and 4, this and countless other threads would never have been opened.

Blaming the refs is just a failure to accept the fact that the team didn't make the plays it could have made which would have won the game.

I don't disagree. But it's one thing to say that a team didn't make the plays it should have and lost; it's another to say that a team had to make play-after-play-after-play because the opponent was bailed out time-after-time-after-time on the other end. The statistical disparities in Games 3 and 4 are stark anomalies in my NBA playoff-watching experience. Teams don't shoot 75% from the floor in tight playoff games and just lose. To see it happen in consecutive games, and with some astoundingly questionable whistles, is troubling.

The Mavs played well enough to win those games; the Spurs did enough to lose those games. But I can certainly understand why there is a growing sentiment that the 4th Quarter whistles in those games were not even.

[kg_veteran]

I don't disagree. But it's one thing to say that a team didn't make the plays it should have and lost; it's another to say that a team had to make play-after-play-after-play because the opponent was bailed out time-after-time-after-time on the other end. The statistical disparities in Games 3 and 4 are stark anomalies in my NBA playoff-watching experience. Teams don't shoot 75% from the floor in tight playoff games and just lose. To see it happen in consecutive games, and with some astoundingly questionable whistles, is troubling.

The Mavs played well enough to win those games; the Spurs did enough to lose those games. But I can certainly understand why there is a growing sentiment that the 4th Quarter whistles in those games were not even.

I would argue (even though I'm sure I won't find many that agree with me here) that the reason the Mavs were the beneficiaries of so many FT attempts is that they were getting to the basket or making good moves and getting fouled. Clearly, we can both point to calls where the ref could have chosen not to call the foul. But the Mavs put themselves in position to get the calls by being aggressive, and on top of that the Mavs still had to make their free throws.

If Dirk misses those FTs in the final minute of either Game 3 or 4, we're not talking about this. Instead, there are a dozen threads posted on some Mavs board about how "Dirk chokes."

I think what bothers both of us more than a particular call being incorrect is the fact that the same play could have occurred during a different game or even earlier in the same game, and it wouldn't have been called the same way. That's really what Duncan was complaining about in Game 3 and Bowen was complaining about in Game 4. Neither was really saying, "I didn't foul him." They were really saying (even if they didn't word it this way), "How can you call that a foul at this point in the game?"

[v2000]

I always respected the spurs and their fans (Classy Organization with great fans), but I've lost some during this series. Why is your team and fans whinning so much about the refs. This is getting out of hand. The last thing you should be worried about is the refs. Quit the madness.

haha, im the opposite. i hate the spurs, because i hate their whiny ass fans. i used to like the spurs, but when i realized how much their fans whine, and the players whine, i started to hate them.

[sprrs]

Heaven forbid the Spurs win a ing game on their own. Now you're hoping for a particular official? You people are all sad little s.

Heaven forbid the MAVS win a game on their own.

[FromWayDowntown]

I would argue (even though I'm sure I won't find many that agree with me here) that the reason the Mavs were the beneficiaries of so many FT attempts is that they were getting to the basket or making good moves and getting fouled. Clearly, we can both point to calls where the ref could have chosen not to call the foul. But the Mavs put themselves in position to get the calls by being aggressive, and on top of that the Mavs still had to make their free throws.

I think that's all very true. But I think much of the frustration here is that the Spurs made similar moves and didn't get similar calls, though it seemed at times that there was similar contact. In the 4th Quarter of Game 4, for example, a disproportionate number of the Spurs shots came in the lane (largely because they were working through Duncan) and Duncan frequently drew contact on those shots, but didn't get to the line and couldn't get fouls called. Meanwhile, the FGA for the Mavericks on a shot chart for the same time period are disproportionately outside the paint, yet everytime the Mavs went to the goal (it seemed) they got a call.

If Dirk misses those FTs in the final minute of either Game 3 or 4, we're not talking about this. Instead, there are a dozen threads posted on some Mavs board about how "Dirk chokes."

The point is, I think, that he got that chance in consecutive games on questionable calls.

I think what bothers both of us more than a particular call being incorrect is the fact that the same play could have occurred during a different game or even earlier in the same game, and it wouldn't have been called the same way. That's really what Duncan was complaining about in Game 3 and Bowen was complaining about in Game 4. Neither was really saying, "I didn't foul him." They were really saying (even if they didn't word it this way), "How can you call that a foul at this point in the game?"

Again, you're correct. I absolutely agree with those statements. I don't mind so much the difference from game-to-game. That's a constant in sports in which humans officiate. It happens and players adjust. My quarrel is with the difference from stage-to-stage of a single game. Particularly the willingness, in the most important portions of a game, to call contact that has been permitted for the rest of the game. It's not so much "How can you call that a foul at this point in the game;" it's more "How can you call that a foul at this point in the game when you haven't called it all night?"

Blown/bad calls happen. Inconsistent calls are inexcusable. And I do think the inconsistency (and most of the bad calls) have favored the Mavericks in the last two games and have allowed them to stay in games in which the Spurs played better 4th Quarters. Just my .02.

[Jimcs50]

haha, im the opposite. i hate the spurs, because i hate their whiny ass fans. i used to like the spurs, but when i realized how much their fans whine, and the players whine, i started to hate them.

You know what????


GET OUT OF THE SPURS' FORUM, and you will not have to listen to the Spurs fans.

OK??????

[Willinsa]

haha, im the opposite. i hate the spurs, because i hate their whiny ass fans. i used to like the spurs, but when i realized how much their fans whine, and the players whine, i started to hate them.

You hate us because we have 3 rings and your ty team has ZERO.

[rayray2k8]

To this point I dont care who the refs are in the game (and it shouldnt be about them either)
All I know is that theres gonna be a va game at the AT&T Center thats gonna be highly contested.
The way I see its the spurs and 15,000 fans against the mavs, mark cuban and his hair.
Lets get this one guys, what happened before doesnt make a difference, we can piss and moan about the previous games, but theres no changing it now, so whats the point?
GET READY, GET LOUD!!

[kg_veteran]

I think that's all very true. But I think much of the frustration here is that the Spurs made similar moves and didn't get similar calls, though it seemed at times that there was similar contact. In the 4th Quarter of Game 4, for example, a disproportionate number of the Spurs shots came in the lane (largely because they were working through Duncan) and Duncan frequently drew contact on those shots, but didn't get to the line and couldn't get fouls called.

First, thanks for discussing this with me rationally.

Re: Game 4, I was looking back at the play-by-play to try and see which plays you were referencing. Duncan was 2-5 in the 4th quarter of Game 4. The official boxscore says he had one layup attempt blocked by Nowitzki, and then he missed a jump shot with about 3:24 left and the final hook shot at the end of regulation. Which one of those plays were fouls? Or are you talking about plays where he should have gotten the "and 1"?

I also looked at the shots taken by the other Spurs in the 4th quarter, and everything that was missed appears to me to have been jump shots. That matches with what I recall about the game. I guess all I'm saying is, I don't remember any specific offensive plays where the Spurs should have gotten the benefit of a foul call, but didn't.

Meanwhile, the FGA for the Mavericks on a shot chart for the same time period are disproportionately outside the paint, yet everytime the Mavs went to the goal (it seemed) they got a call.

The Mavs also made their fair share of FGA in Game 4. Maybe you could point out some specific plays where fouls were called that shouldn't have been. Re: Dirk's FTs at the end of regulation. I don't think Bowen really believed that he didn't foul Dirk. He just thought they should have "let the players decide the game," which translates to forcing Dirk to make a shot. (FWIW, when Bowen got called for the foul, Dirk had already gone into his spin move and was alone at the front of the rim. I think the Mavs were getting 2 points either way.)

The point is, I think, that he got that chance in consecutive games on questionable calls.

I understand that perspective. The Spurs could have avoided both situations by getting a rebound and/or by not turning the ball over, so I don't think the foul calls cost the Spurs the game, but I know what you're saying.

Again, you're correct. I absolutely agree with those statements. I don't mind so much the difference from game-to-game. That's a constant in sports in which humans officiate. It happens and players adjust. My quarrel is with the difference from stage-to-stage of a single game. Particularly the willingness, in the most important portions of a game, to call contact that has been permitted for the rest of the game. It's not so much "How can you call that a foul at this point in the game;" it's more "How can you call that a foul at this point in the game when you haven't called it all night?"

Yeah, that's fair. I agree with that.

Blown/bad calls happen. Inconsistent calls are inexcusable. And I do think the inconsistency (and most of the bad calls) have favored the Mavericks in the last two games and have allowed them to stay in games in which the Spurs played better 4th Quarters. Just my .02.

I appreciate the fact that you present that opinion without profanity or any broad-stroke conspiracy theories.

[FromWayDowntown]

First, thanks for discussing this with me rationally.

Agreed. I'm happy to do so.

Re: Game 4, I was looking back at the play-by-play to try and see which plays you were referencing. Duncan was 2-5 in the 4th quarter of Game 4. The official boxscore says he had one layup attempt blocked by Nowitzki, and then he missed a jump shot with about 3:24 left and the final hook shot at the end of regulation. Which one of those plays were fouls? Or are you talking about plays where he should have gotten the "and 1"?

I don't know that the play-by-play would bear out my complaint, largely becuase it doesn't note instances in which there (from my perspective) there appears to be significant contact but the shot falls and there is no call. It's fair to say that I think there were at least a couple of plays that could have warranted and-1's (given the contact that was called on the other end), but that call didn't come. It happens and we move along.

I also looked at the shots taken by the other Spurs in the 4th quarter, and everything that was missed appears to me to have been jump shots. That matches with what I recall about the game. I guess all I'm saying is, I don't remember any specific offensive plays where the Spurs should have gotten the benefit of a foul call, but didn't.

There were a lot of jumpers, but a shot chart shows that a disproportionate number of the shots taken were shots taken in the lane. Parker did go to the rim (or at least get close enough for a floater). My distaste, though, was mostly for the contact on Duncan that didn't seem to draw calls.

The Mavs also made their fair share of FGA in Game 4. Maybe you could point out some specific plays where fouls were called that shouldn't have been. Re: Dirk's FTs at the end of regulation. I don't think Bowen really believed that he didn't foul Dirk. He just thought they should have "let the players decide the game," which translates to forcing Dirk to make a shot. (FWIW, when Bowen got called for the foul, Dirk had already gone into his spin move and was alone at the front of the rim. I think the Mavs were getting 2 points either way.)

I think the 2 that really stick in my craw are the Bowen foul (which strikes me as a preposterously soft call in that game and that cir stance, given everything else that had gone on) and the block/charge situation with Duncan and Nowitzki. One (the Bowen call) is an example of what I saw as an inconsistency; the other (the Duncan call) is an example of what I saw as a poorly-called play by an official who was out of position. There was a third cir stance, a situation where Bowen elevated before Dirk did and came down without appearing to make any contact, but was still called for a foul. What troubled me about that one was that the official in position to make the call, Derrick Stafford, didn't blow his whistle; and official who was blocked out by Dirk's body, Bavetta, did.

Again, though, it happens. And I'm sure that many Mavericks fans would disagree with me about my perspective on all 3 calls.

I understand that perspective. The Spurs could have avoided both situations by getting a rebound and/or by not turning the ball over, so I don't think the foul calls cost the Spurs the game, but I know what you're saying.

Absolutely. In the end, the Spurs have had their chances and haven't gotten done what should be done. It's on them that they lost the games -- or on the Mavericks for getting those things done at winning time.

I appreciate the fact that you present that opinion without profanity or any broad-stroke conspiracy theories.

Likewise.

[kg_veteran]

My hope is that tonight we can just have a game where the refs are not a part of the storyline.

[spurster]

I've heard there's been a name change from Knick Bavetta to Mavetta.

[FromWayDowntown]

My hope is that tonight we can just have a game where the refs are not a part of the storyline.

.

I'd like 3 of those over the next five days or so.

[kg_veteran]

.

I'd like 3 of those over the next five days or so.

I'm sure you would.

[whottt]

Game 1, 2003 WCF.

And anyone recall that little travelling call on Tim in Dallas earlier this season when Dirk clearly pushed him from behind? Salvatore made that call.

Game 4 2004 WCSF...

David Robinson fouls out in 12 minutes.

[FromWayDowntown]

Game 4 2004 WCSF...

David Robinson fouls out in 12 minutes.

2003, whottt -- and it was 14 minutes. But you were close.

Kevin Willis had 4 in 15 minutes that afternoon, too.

The Salvatore/Nies shuffle

[J.T.]

Spurs are 5-1 when Salvatore calls the game this season. I know we all hate him for fouling out David in 12 minutes but if he refs it's not the end of the world. The Spurs must put everything aside tonight and win this with their ability. the Mavs, the refs. Game 5 will be ALL Silver and Black.

[whottt]

I want everyone to bookmark this thread...

If the NBA is rigged we will get Salvatore in Game 6....Provided we win tonight.

IF there are fixed games he would definitely be the closer.

[whottt]

Spurs are 5-1 when Salvatore calls the game this season. I know we all hate him for fouling out David in 12 minutes but if he refs it's not the end of the world. The Spurs must put everything aside tonight and win this with their ability. the Mavs, the refs. Game 5 will be ALL Silver and Black.

How you like Bennet now?

[GoSpurs21]

what the is wrong with duncan????
he takes weak ass fouls in the most important game of the Spurs playoff run

come on Timmy step up and play smart...we cant afford dumbass weak fouls

[Winnipeg_Spur]

This game is a complete joke. They're playing without Terry so to make up for that they'll just foul out Duncan, Manu AND Bowen. Seems fair.