Free Will and Christianity

[clambake]

You said it. Influential. You are suggesting that my "ignorence" is wilful. For that to be true I would have to believe, only to pretend not to. Is it not Gods will for me not to believe. Didn't he give me the reasons and will not to believe? Will I burn in ? Will he send me to for turning away from his teachings? Will satan punish me for turning away form Gods teachings?

[2centsworth]

If I am betting with my soul, wouldn't God recognize that I am nothing more than an ignorant twit, therefor not making me suffer his wrath?

No just God or judge would let iniquity go unpunished.

[xrayzebra]

I have recieved nothing which solidifies a viewpoint in either direction, in my opinion.

I would suggest you go back to church. And wasn't it you that said your
Grandfather was a minister. Why don't you have this conversation with
him. I am more than sure no one on this forum will change anyone's mind
on the subject. Religion is a personal thing. Like death. It is something
no one can do for you. It is something you must face alone and decide
alone. That is not saying you cant talk to a person about the subject, just
that it is a decision that must be made by yourself. And you will know
when you make that decision. There is no sin in questioning your faith.
God has said the only unforgivable sin is not in believing in him. Maybe
not much of an answer, but one I have found to be true over the years.
Faith sustains many over many hurdles and heartbreaks and yes, even
the the good things that will happen to you over your life. It is as much
fun to share your good times as it is to have someone share your heartbreak and sorrow.

[Mr. Peabody]

You are suggesting that my "ignorence" is wilful. For that to be true I would have to believe, only to pretend not to.

No, that would be "bad faith." Wilful ignorance is deliberately refraining from seeking out the truth, so that later you can claim you were unaware.

[Mr. Peabody]

Is it not Gods will for me not to believe. Didn't he give me the reasons and will not to believe? Will I burn in ? Will he send me to for turning away from his teachings? Will satan punish me for turning away form Gods teachings?

I don't know. I am an agnostic.

[Mr. Peabody]

I would suggest you go back to church. And wasn't it you that said your
Grandfather was a minister. Why don't you have this conversation with
him. I am more than sure no one on this forum will change anyone's mind
on the subject. Religion is a personal thing. Like death. It is something
no one can do for you. It is something you must face alone and decide
alone. That is not saying you cant talk to a person about the subject, just
that it is a decision that must be made by yourself. And you will know
when you make that decision. There is no sin in questioning your faith.
God has said the only unforgivable sin is not in believing in him. Maybe
not much of an answer, but one I have found to be true over the years.
Faith sustains many over many hurdles and heartbreaks and yes, even
the the good things that will happen to you over your life. It is as much
fun to share your good times as it is to have someone share your heartbreak and sorrow.

Nice post, xray.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I would suggest you go back to church. And wasn't it you that said your
Grandfather was a minister. Why don't you have this conversation with
him. I am more than sure no one on this forum will change anyone's mind
on the subject. Religion is a personal thing. Like death. It is something
no one can do for you. It is something you must face alone and decide
alone. That is not saying you cant talk to a person about the subject, just
that it is a decision that must be made by yourself. And you will know
when you make that decision. There is no sin in questioning your faith.
God has said the only unforgivable sin is not in believing in him. Maybe
not much of an answer, but one I have found to be true over the years.
Faith sustains many over many hurdles and heartbreaks and yes, even
the the good things that will happen to you over your life. It is as much
fun to share your good times as it is to have someone share your heartbreak and sorrow.

I like it when he tones down the rhetoric and writes civil stuff like this, nice post.

[Extra Stout]

I would suggest you go back to church. And wasn't it you that said your
Grandfather was a minister. Why don't you have this conversation with
him. I am more than sure no one on this forum will change anyone's mind
on the subject. Religion is a personal thing. Like death. It is something
no one can do for you. It is something you must face alone and decide
alone. That is not saying you cant talk to a person about the subject, just
that it is a decision that must be made by yourself. And you will know
when you make that decision. There is no sin in questioning your faith.
God has said the only unforgivable sin is not in believing in him. Maybe
not much of an answer, but one I have found to be true over the years.
Faith sustains many over many hurdles and heartbreaks and yes, even
the the good things that will happen to you over your life. It is as much
fun to share your good times as it is to have someone share your heartbreak and sorrow.

You probably "get it" better than most of the rest of us.

[jochhejaam]

If prayer will not change Gods will, why bother. Isn't that the point?

God's will is that none should perish without the eternal soul saving knowledge of the gift Jesus Christ gave man when he allowed himself to die on the cross thereby atoning for mans sins.

"God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

Yet we are told that far more of mankind will perish without having personally accepted this soul saving knowledge than those that accept this knowledge;

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leads unto life, and few are they that find it.

So Gods will is that none should perish (in ) but reality is that many will.

Conclusion - Gods will is not fulfilled because he allows mankind the freedom to choose what road they take and many choose not to be partakers (of what I will take the liberty to label) "His perfect will".

As Stout previously stated "the fervent, effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much". If I didn't believe that (and I do) then I'm wasting my time.

[jochhejaam]

God tells us to pray... to worship him. To worship him....Does God have an ego that needs to be stroked? I don't get it. Bosses demand worship, too.

It sounds as if you have a limited idea of what worshipping God entails. What do you picture when you think of us worshipping Him?

Throughout scripture we are told that we are created by God for his pleasure, He doesn't need our worship, He covets our Worship.


The greatest form of worshipping Him IMO is by accepting the greatest given ever given to mankind and that is the emancipating decision to accept the life giving sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ. Attempting to pass along this gift to others is a form of worship. Being obedient to him in the way he wants us to live is worship. Helping those in need is a form of worshipping him. It brings God pleasure to see those he has created helping each other out, etc.

[Phenomanul]

God's will is that none should perish without the eternal soul saving knowledge of the gift Jesus Christ gave man when he allowed himself to die on the cross thereby atoning for mans sins.

"God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

Yet we are told that far more of mankind will perish without having personally accepted this soul saving knowledge than those that accept this knowledge;

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leads unto life, and few are they that find it.

So Gods will is that none should perish (in ) but reality is that many will.

Conclusion - Gods will is not fulfilled because he allows mankind the freedom to choose what road they take and many choose not to be partakers (of what I will take the liberty to label) "His perfect will".

As Stout previously stated "the fervent, effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much". If I didn't believe that (and I do) then I'm wasting my time.

Couldn't have phrased it any better myself...

[SA210]

I would suggest you go back to church. And wasn't it you that said your
Grandfather was a minister. Why don't you have this conversation with
him. I am more than sure no one on this forum will change anyone's mind
on the subject. Religion is a personal thing. Like death. It is something
no one can do for you. It is something you must face alone and decide
alone. That is not saying you cant talk to a person about the subject, just
that it is a decision that must be made by yourself. And you will know
when you make that decision. There is no sin in questioning your faith.
God has said the only unforgivable sin is not in believing in him. Maybe
not much of an answer, but one I have found to be true over the years.
Faith sustains many over many hurdles and heartbreaks and yes, even
the the good things that will happen to you over your life. It is as much
fun to share your good times as it is to have someone share your heartbreak and sorrow.

Would you say having faith would also include supporting war?

[xrayzebra]

Would you say having faith would also include supporting war?

In one one word: YES!

Even God tells you that. But you would have a hard time
understanding that. You have too much hate in your heart.
You will never understand dissent from hate. Sorry, but
this the last thing I will have to say on this matter.
The young man was asking a question. I gave him an
opinion, mine. Right, wrong or indifferent. I take him at
his word. He was seeking an answer. The only thing I
would add to my original post was to use what he has.
His brain. Think, use common sense. Look at the country
around him. The beauty that it holds. Nature. People.
Yes people. By nature they are beautiful, in mind and
in their physical being. Look at the animals. One of my
favorite creatures is a Jersey cow. I know it sounds dumb.
But I have always, since a child, looked at those big
brown beautiful eyes they have and who couldn't love them.
When they were calves, they had as much energy as myself.
I know you wont understand. But there is much you don't.
But Yes, I do support war. It is ugly. People die. But
you are always talking about the bible. Remember the
cities God destroyed. They were evil. Evil still exist.

[SA210]

In one one word: YES!

Even God tells you that. But you would have a hard time
understanding that. You have too much hate in your heart.
You will never understand dissent from hate. Sorry, but
this the last thing I will have to say on this matter.
The young man was asking a question. I gave him an
opinion, mine. Right, wrong or indifferent. I take him at
his word. He was seeking an answer. The only thing I
would add to my original post was to use what he has.
His brain. Think, use common sense. Look at the country
around him. The beauty that it holds. Nature. People.
Yes people. By nature they are beautiful, in mind and
in their physical being. Look at the animals. One of my
favorite creatures is a Jersey cow. I know it sounds dumb.
But I have always, since a child, looked at those big
brown beautiful eyes they have and who couldn't love them.
When they were calves, they had as much energy as myself.
I know you wont understand. But there is much you don't.
But Yes, I do support war. It is ugly. People die. But
you are always talking about the bible. Remember the
cities God destroyed. They were evil. Evil still exist.

God made war with the nations.

This was war by command. Nations were executed in righteous war by God, using the Isrealites. And the Last War will be the same.

Wars of today are Not made by God. We are NOT to start wars, finish them or be associated with them in anyway.

Simple, "You must not kill" . No exceptions. You can read I and II Kings and I and II Samuel to see the difference.

[Spurminator]

Wars of today are Not made by God.

Scripture?

[spurster]

No doubt Spurstalk is the place to go to get correct theology. Now here goes:

Free will: We have enough free will to accept Jesus as our Savior. We don't have enough free will to lead a sinless life. We need God's will (the Holy Spirit) to lead a better, more Christian life.

Why bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people: God is not a micro-manager. Almost everything that happens is natural cause and effect. God gave us dominion over the earth, so it is up to us to manage it wisely or not. When God performs an overt miracle (e.g., healing a sick person), it is to demonstrate God's existence, power, love, mercy, etc., not to ensure that everybody gets everything they need or desire. It's our job to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, take care of the sick, visit those in prison. Of course, covert miracles happen all the time when God gives us the Holy Spirit.