Subverting the Cons ution by Opposing the Flag

[pussyface]

if you are interested in a more intellectually justifiable brand of conservatism that holds up to greater scrutiny i suggest reading "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand, a very noted voice in the intellectual conservative movement.

I think you could learn a lot from reading it and would not be put off by it in any way. check it out.

[xrayzebra]

xray...why do you want to impose your will on others?
if you dont like burning the flag, you may respond my not burning the flag. other people must be allowed to do things you don't like when those things have no tangible negative impact on you and do not affect your ability to live freely. otherwise, you don't have a free society. everyone suffers.


as a political philosopher, you leave a lot to be desired.

But you would impose yours and others will on me by burning the flag.
Not allowing Christian displays on the court house square. Why, because
it might offend others. Give me a break.

Political Philosopher I'm not. Never professed to be. A person who will
express my views I am.

You state no negative impact. My friend, the conduct of many has had
such a negative impact on this country is beyond anything most would
have ever envisioned. We have had conduct in the past which
impacted the country. Like lynch mobs. And people took care of it.
And now people are once again waking up to those who would change
the face of our nation and have change the face of our nation.
No one, I repeat, no one is wanting to take anyone's freedom of speech.
Don't confuse the issue by saying this. All us that want the amendment
want is to protect the symbol of the United States of American and
for what it stands for.

[turambar85]

In the first place, I state my opinions. Of which you have no respect nor
intention of accepting. Your idea of reason is beyond most on this board.
Your sense of good reasons is only if you agree.

As far as having the "balls" to defend my beliefs. You are a joke. I have
laid them out in the real world. Which most on this board have not.

I have never said you could not criticize me or anyone else. As far as I
know it is still a free U.S. and freedom of speech has not be revoked. As
much as you wish it were, when it comes to people like me who you
disagree with.

I happen to respect the symbol of our country. Old Glory. I think it
should be protected not used as a symbol of some idiot who disagrees
with George Bush or Bill Clinton or any other President or administration.
Old Glory does not represent any one President or Administration. It
represents the United States of America. You descecrate it and you
descecrate the United States not some dumb politicians. Now that
may upset you to know that. That is what American Service members
have given their life for. That is what they are giving their life for now.
Not George Bush or Karl Rove or Chenney but the United States and
YOU dummy. For the people who's life was taken in 9/11 and on the
Cole and in the Embassies we had bombed. And the barracks in
Saudi Arabia.

Now you may not like the talk I talk, I really don't give a damn. The
amendment is not about getting anyone elected, as far as I am
concerned. You understand that? It is about protecting something
that I am and many more have given many years and as stated before
their lives to protect. A symbol of the United States of America, not
some bunch of politicians. It is not taking away anyone's right to
protest. It is about that symbol of a right to protest.

Now, I have said my piece on this. You can like it or lump it. I don't
hide behind my age, the alternative to age is not that great. I don't hide
behind my age. You can accept those facts or lump them also.
As I have said before, age does one thing. It gives you the benefit
of having been there and done that and you know what happens when
certain facts exist. Your thoughts are not original nor is any of your
so called learned professors. Mine are not, my forefathers before me
who taught me plenty of the principles I live by certainly knew what
they were talking about. They were well read, thoughtful and worked
damn hard at making life work. Unfortunately, many like you have
failed to learn those lessons and don't want to listen to those who
attempt to tell you about life.

You dont understand me at all, and it shows.

1st, I never desired to limit your freedom of speech, though if ignorance was a criteria for doing so you would have long been rendered silent. I have actually begged you to speak more, to give your reasoning behind your claims. Freedom of speech my ass, youre the one attempting to eliminate a part of that freedom.

2nd, I am very open minded, and my views on what is a good reason have nothing to do with my beliefs. If you had attempted to rationalize your thought process I would have accepted that, I may have attacked lame views, but I would have accepted them as your point of view.

3rd, it is a symbol of our country, fine. But our country, and not just the last few politicians, has done some terrible things throughout history, it is not unassailable and beyond verbal attack. But the point of flag burning is to send a message to the entire country. They don't burn a Bush sticker because there are 1000's of Bush's waiting in the wings. There is no other way to send a big " you" to America, not that is within their capacity. And for American citizens doing it, it is just a stupid protest symbol. But we don't put Amendments on stupidity. You can't demand and legislate respect or morality. The government is here to help us, and to make sure that we aren't harmed. Flag burning harms nobody, get used to that fact.


4th, it is completely about getting another Republican elected, and saving Bush's ratings. Its using patriotism to rally the masses, to save face, and it is working.

So, in conclusion, X-ray, I never claimed any of my thoughts were original, jackass, and I didn't get anything I have said from any of my professors. I have never had a teacher mention the flag, Bush, or anything else trying to score liberal points. The only reason people like you harp on that liberal education bull is because you are insecure about your own lack of education. I don't know if this is true about you, you may have a great education, but generally speaking I have found this to be a great truth.

Good day X-ray.

[pussyface]

But you would impose yours and others will on me by burning the flag.
Not allowing Christian displays on the court house square. Why, because
it might offend others. Give me a break.
.

I dont know who you think your talking to, but I am consistent in my stances, unlike you. There is no part of me, according to the libertarian worldview I have put forth, that wants to impose my will on you.

"Political Philosopher I'm not. Never professed to be. A person who will
express my views I am. " -you


It's all well and good that you just want to give your opinions and not strive to rise to the level of philosophy. Statements like these make it clear you aren't interested in debate, learning, or developing consistent principals. At the end of the day, any idiot can spout off whatever incoherent bull they want and just fall back on "hey, only my opinion, sorry, thought i was alowed to have one." Carry on.

[pussyface]

Another thing that is dismaying about the way you post is that you import experts from academia to intellectualize your conservatism by posting their articles in threads, but aren't willing to stand on your own intellectual two feet.

often, you post from a credible academic source, and then just say "see! who wants to argue with that? huh? not me, thats for sure" You add nothing and don't appear to be equiped to deal with the contradictory points people raise.

you consistently arent up to the challenge of intellectual debate, even when you instigate it yourself. then, its a one way train to HeyItsJustMyOpinionville

[xrayzebra]

^^My goodness I am surrounded by pseudo-intellects. I give up.
Going back to my golf and let you two burn our flag.

Phil is in trouble and Furyk cant get over the hump. Ah, the
freedom of youth and being bullet proof. Been there and done that too.

Been nice exchanging our thoughts.

[pussyface]

"My goodness I am surrounded by pseudo-intellects. I give up.
Going back to my golf and let you two burn our flag."--you

hehe...when things take a turn for the worse in a debate and your taking the conventional conservative opinion, you can always fall back on calling those who expose you "psuedointellectuals."

okay, man. ...weak

[pussyface]

this guy xray doesnt want anyone to be legally allowed to burn a flag because he is opposed to it personally.

if you disagree with him, you are either antiamerican, a communist, or trying in vain to be intellectual.

Also, disagreeing with him wanting to impose his will on all of America because of what the flag means to him on a personal level means that you yourself want to burn the flag in your free time.

[pussyface]

Somehow, I am not surprised that you are heading to the golf course of all places. Keep living that life of Reilly. You typically have to have some money to hold beliefs as insular as yours, or to have the time to sit around obsessing over things like worrying about others burning a symbol.

saying nothing about your particular political beliefs, i'll agree that the golf course appears to be a far more appropriate venue for you than a public debate.

[xrayzebra]

Somehow, I am not surprised that you are heading to the golf course of all places. Keep living that life of Reilly. You typically have to have some money to hold beliefs as insular as yours, or to have the time to sit around obsessing over things like worrying about others burning a symbol.

saying nothing about your particular political beliefs, i'll agree that the golf course appears to be a far more appropriate venue for you than a public debate.

My, why am I not surprised that you envy someone who has made a
modest success of their life. Why am I not surprised that you think
I have never known what it was like to be really broke. I suppose
I could tell you how to make a success and have a little money, but
you again would make fun of that also. Time and experience does that.
It teaches one.

My political beliefs are based on time and experience. You can only
help those that want help. Freedom of expression is just that. An
expression. The only ones that are impressed, unfortunately are
politicians. But only in this day and age. In pass times it didn't work
that way. A minority is just that a minority. And don't try playing the
race card. I am not talking about that. I am talking about a small
group of people who want to be heard and do outlandish things to
get the attention of the media and politicians. Except now days and
in the past it is working less and less.

Ever heard of backlash? People get tired of crap.

You and turambar85 are wrong, you know you are wrong and that
is your problem. Not mine.

By the way Furyk got over the hump and is doing great now. Good
tournament. You ought to watch it. It is a game where you are
responsible for what you do. Cant blame anyone.

[xrayzebra]

Okay, golf is over. And guess what, the winner is the loser. Yeah, you
more than likely cant figure that out. Well Mickelson was leading all the way
and lost it, yeah, he lost it, no one took away from him. The winner was
an Aussie. Ogilvey. He won it, because he stayed the course.

Like some on this board. You more than likely will be losers in life while those
who stay the course, remain true to tried and true principles, will be the
winners.

But that is life. I'm a winner. I know because I have been there, done that
and know the rules of life.

[pussyface]

oh my god what are you talking about?
you are one crazy son of a .

thanks for imparting your considerable wisdom on me. I for one give you full credit for "staying the course" with your desire to impose your will on everyone, equally.

[Guru of Nothing]

But that is life. I'm a winner. I know because I have been there, done that and know the rules of life.

And doggonit, people like you!

[xrayzebra]

Happy you finally saw the light. And I am not a SOB, my Mother was a fine
lady. But you may have had a different childhood.

Like I said. I am a winner. You still have a chance to be one.

And by the way you claim to be a libertarian, you aren't, but no matter. Those
that claim to be should remember something. Laws are suppose to be the
rules of living together. Without rules you have nothing.

[pussyface]

And by the way you claim to be a libertarian, you aren't, but no matter. Those
that claim to be should remember something. Laws are suppose to be the
rules of living together. Without rules you have nothing.

Okay xray. Explain.

[pussyface]

Do you even know what libertarianism is?
Its not the same as the redneck conservatism you embrace.

[xrayzebra]

No explanation necessary. Just go back and read your own post. Explains it
all.

[pussyface]

oh you mean where i advocated for libertarian principles like leaving consenting adults to make their own decisions so long as they do not infrindge on the freedoms of others? actually, that doesnt really explain your claim.

there is no such thing as a libertarian that is for an amendment making it illegal to burn the flag.

[pussyface]

...that would be like "libertarians against gay marriage."
or "libertarians for the invasion of Iraq!"

Again, you don't know what libertarianism is, but if you are interested in learning I suggest a book called Atlas Shrugged. Its a classic and a cornerstone of libertarian philosophy. It has a lot of pages though...and no pictures.

[pussyface]

Now that I think of it though, don't bother checking out the book.
You are already a self-proclaimed winner in life. Its clear you pretty much have all the answers.

[pussyface]

here is one of my previous posts:
"if you dont like burning the flag, you may respond by not burning the flag. other people must be allowed to do things you don't like when those things have no tangible negative impact on you and do not affect your ability to live freely. otherwise, you don't have a free society. everyone suffers.

having a land where no one is allowed to burn a flag because of the ideals it symbolizes to some is in many ways no better than having a land where all people are required to burn flags involuntarily. Leaving consenting adults alone to determine the course of their own behavior is the overriding principal that we need to respect here."

Your right, that totally contradicts libertarianism.

[Guru of Nothing]

And by the way you claim to be a libertarian, you aren't, but no matter. Those that claim to be should remember something. Laws are suppose to be the rules of living together. Without rules you have nothing.

George Bush laughs in your face.

[Guru of Nothing]

And by the way you claim to be a libertarian, you aren't, but no matter.

I voted Libertarian last election. Is that not enough?

[turambar85]

You and turambar85 are wrong, you know you are wrong and that
is your problem. Not mine.

Ok, Mr. Winner, why are we wrong? It takes some kind of man to sit on the sidelines and call the shots, but once in a while you gotta jump into the fray and explain you calls. Tell me why I am wrong, and I will admit that you are the great winner, since you have obvious confidence issues.

Also, why is he not libertarian?? Its called Wikipedia, it will answer your questions about things you don't understand.

And for Gods sake, answer and refute a post for once, that generic bull won't cut it here in the kitchen X-ray.

[fyatuk]

Okay, golf is over. And guess what, the winner is the loser. Yeah, you
more than likely cant figure that out. Well Mickelson was leading all the way
and lost it, yeah, he lost it, no one took away from him. The winner was
an Aussie. Ogilvey. He won it, because he stayed the course.

Like some on this board. You more than likely will be losers in life while those
who stay the course, remain true to tried and true principles, will be the
winners.

But that is life. I'm a winner. I know because I have been there, done that
and know the rules of life.

Society cannot evolve if everyone "stays the course". It will stagnate and die without inspiration, without exploration.

Most "winners" in life are those who have bucked the trend. Who stepped off the path before them and tred a new course.

The US itself refused to "stay the course" repeatedly, and usually ended up better off.

But that'd be just another pointless discussion, seeing as how this has basically turned into a back and forth compe ion of insults, back-handed or otherwise.

The only other comment I have is that just because someone's principles do not match yours, it does not mean they are not "tried and true" principles. In life there is no black and white, and there are ALWAYS multiple answers.