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how am I wrong? no matter what you said the principal that you introduced your private religious beliefs into a discussion of public policy will apply.
please apologize to humanity.
The thing that really gets me is that what he advocates is far from God's will. Most people who say that tend to ignore what the bible really says.
Do this if you want to really throw something at him that he will have a hard time attacking:
Go here: http://www.biblegateway.com/
Do a search for the word "poor".
You end up with some interesting bits like this:
" 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you."Leviticus 25:35(New International Version)
There are indeed passages in there as well that encourage people to work honestly and not be lazy. But the kind of mean spiritedness that many conservatives advocate is not to be found.
Welfare, food stamps, et al. are entirely in the spirit and word of what it means to be Christian. If someone is having a hard time of things, you help them. It is better to be taken advantage of by the dishonest than to not offer to anybody at all. The dishonest get theirs eventually.
Again this is not to be careless or negligent with aid to others, but helping people in need is very much a perogative of God and not just Christianity and the Bible but every major religion. This is something that a lot of the so-called "Christian" conservatives ignore.
how am I wrong? no matter what you said the principal that you introduced your private religious beliefs into a discussion of public policy will apply.
please apologize to humanity.
I indeed know about it. My family and I received it for the last two years, as well as food stamps for 8 months of that time when I was unemployed.
I finally managed to leverage my education into a decent job with health insurance (thank goodness), and my wife lucked into a job that allows her employment at workable terms with enough income to pay for the daycare that is required.
We have gone from public assitance to productive income tax-paying citizens, and I don't begrudge those taxes one bit. When you talk about lazy-ass people on food stamps, it irritates me because I had little choice and got off of them as soon as I could. The only thing that kept us from being homeless was debt that will take us years to pay off. There is little worse than seeing your pregnant wife break into tears because the bills aren't getting paid. Not everybody is out to cheat the system.
I would lastly point out as an accountant that the earned income tax credit was created to reflect the reality that poor people, even those who don't earn much money, still pay taxes. The credit level was calculated based on an estimate of how much poor people pay in various taxes at all levels. See my previous response to 2centsworth for details on what these taxes are.
conservatism is a cure for poverty, liberalism is a crutch.
you and the excuses and sad story, give me a break. I paid my way through school, worked 4 jobs at one time and wasn't given crap. Be a man bills weren't paid because you didn't work or you spent too much money. It all makes sense you're a man full of excuses. Btw, I did mean income tax.
also, quoting leviticus is a joke.
Okay, what is the point. Didn't I say that a helping hand is okay.
Living off welfare is not okay. You prove my point.
Now, let me tell you something. Before this era, Texas was very poor.
It didn't make a damn bit of difference what race, color or whatever.
You want to impress me, you have. You worked yourself out of a hole,
I did too. Many have. People like you deserve a pat on the back.
But believe me, you are not out of the woods yet. ]
Let me give you a bit of advice, which you will make fun of, as will
others. Start paying yourself first. What does that mean. Well join
your friendly credit union. You want something, borrow the money
from them, pay it off early. Start a Money Market account and
put a little something in there every month. No I don't mean
savings account, I said Money Market account. Leave the damn
money there.
Borrow when you really need something. Nothing wrong with borrowing,
so long as you don't over extend yourself.
You need furniture or whatever, look for the no interest contracts.
Pay it off before the interest hits the books. Their loss, your gain.
I have been in your shoes. I have been in debt. I learned the hard
way. So listen to an old man. As you ac ulate you will feel better,
you will have a better credit rating and it will become such a habit
that you cannot believe. I promise you.
xrayzebra has the things he cares about in his daily life dictated to him by a political party.
your not even human anymore.
^^Yeah, I know. Terrible isn't it. But I do have a normal face. I just
have to wonder what you are going to do. Like the drunk said to
Eleanor, I wake up sober in the morning, but you will still have your face.
One other little fact. You seem to be here worrying about me the last few
days. Could it be that you are a political wannabe. Come on in, the water
can be a little deep and cold and sometimes really hot. But it's all politics.
Except now days it affects the country and the world too.
(laughs)
I apologize unreservedly.
At some point one must make decisions about morality based on something. If it is not religion then it is still a code of ethics of some sort.
I make rational decisions based on information, but still in the end have to have some guiding principles.
I ask no one to believe the same things I believe in religious/spiritual terms.
Thanks. Your advice is very sound and already being done. I am studying (most of the way there) for my CPA, so I know your advice is on the money.
My first investment is in the high-interest debt my family has ac ulated. That year of unemployment while I was searching for a job was expensive.
I will not bother to save any money until the debt is paid off. Few investments allow the same certain return as one's own debt. My family's income has roughly quadrupled, but we have mostly stuck to the same living standard. It's all about the cash flow and net worth.
I will readily admit to a VERY negative net worth at the moment, unless one counts the education that was purchased with that debt. THAT investment will pay off heavily. But keeping our expenses low, we have slowly started to pay off that debt, and it feels great.
(shrugs)
There is nothing wrong with a crutch if your leg is broken.
I can't and won't argue with these preconcieved notions of what "conservatism" and "liberalism" are.
If being conservative means turning my back on human misery, than stamp the yellow star of liberalism on my shirt sleeve, and ship me to the camps.
If being liberal means ignoring human potential, then off to siberia with my conservative butt for indoctrination.
It is good that you did so. So many of my classmates were simply there because their parents were just paying for their education. You probably appreciated your classes much more, as I did for having earned it. I financed the first four years of my education with the GI Bill thank you very much. It was grad school that really killed me.
I make no excuses. The assistance was there. I used it. I will readily admit I could have worked 4 jobs, but the 5th and 6th jobs of being a husband and a father is probably something you didn't have to worry about, was it? I used the time and assistance to search for better paying work and study.
It was stressful sacrificing money that I could have earned from jobs for good grades. My investment paid off, as I knew it would.
That is part and parcel of a social contract that any sensible society could and should make. Give someone the assistance for a period, and allow me the opportunity to use that to pull myself and my family out of poverty.
I now get to pay back into the system many times over.
The alternative is that I worked 4 jobs, tried to keep my marriage intact and never see my offspring. More than likely it would have ended in a divorce, and my wife would be forced to raise our two sons on her own with whatever assistance I could provide. I would not have the spare time/money to finish school, and the economy would not have the benefit of my education and talent for analysing information in a meaningful way. No assistance= no investment in human capital.
If you find the bible a joke, that is your concern.
you're just self-righteous. I've probably done more for humanity than you have to this point.
I'm not talking about taking away student loans.No assistance= no investment in human capital.
You quoted Leviticus totally out of context. Leviticus is old jewish traditions.If you find the bible a joke, that is your concern.
If the bible is not your thing then mayhaps another book widely read:
"At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge," said the gentleman, taking up a pen, "it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and Des ute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."
"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.
"Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
"And the Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"
"They are. Still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they were not."
"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?" said Scrooge.
"Both very busy, sir."
"Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge. "I'm very glad to hear it."
"Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the mul ude," returned the gentleman, "a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?"
"Nothing!" Scrooge replied.
"You wish to be anonymous?"
"I wish to be left alone," said Scrooge. "Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned -- they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there."
You're obviously a humanitarian.
Galatians 5:19-21 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I have yet to insult you.
If my posts come off as self-righteous, my apologies. The intention was more to express deeply held beliefs in the virtue of helping others. I mentor, I help out with Voluntary Income Tax preparation, and teach local small business people the basics of accounting and economics for free when asked. Well maybe not entirely for free, I do accept an occasional taco and tea.
(shrugs)You quoted Leviticus totally out of context. Leviticus is old jewish traditions.
Since I am wrong about the bible in some way, I will defer to you then.
In general what did jesus say about helping the poor?
I say we need to be concerned about human misery.
You say:
I say that I have accepted assistance when I have needed it for the sake of my family.You're being overly dramatic.
You say:
[RG, you are not a real man].
the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control.
Or am I taking this out of context as well?
I don't have hatred for you man. Like the scripture you just quoted I'm trying to point out how you're acting. If it came across as an insult I apologize too.
Life is all about helping others. We disagree on the role of the government in the plight to help people. The government should only provide short-term assistance in certain cases. However, democrats want the government to take care of large groups of people for a very long time. As I have shown, it's going to bankrupt the country.If my posts come off as self-righteous, my apologies. The intention was more to express deeply held beliefs in the virtue of helping others. I mentor, I help out with Voluntary Income Tax preparation, and teach local small business people the basics of accounting and economics for free when asked. Well maybe not entirely for free, I do accept an occasional taco and tea.
We should help the poor and that's why Christians are some of the most generous givers of their time and money to humanitarian causes.(shrugs)
Since I am wrong about the bible in some way, I will defer to you then.
In general what did jesus say about helping the poor?
Our disagreement comes from the ecomonic systems we support. I believe capitalism helps in the fight to help humanity more than does communism.
There are countries where the social safety net works really well.
In Germany, they get unemployment insurance for however long they need it, and it comes to something like $25,000 a year for free.
In a country of 88 million, less than 1 million abused the system, and the German people were shocked it was that high.
Work ethic is so ingrained in their culture that the system was feasible.
If something like that were in place in the United States, I would not be surprised if 100 million people lived off the dole.
The old American dream was to work hard and get a little piece of the pie. The new American dream is to live comfortably while doing nothing.
The challenge in this country is to separate the people who really need help to get themselves back on their feet (like RG) from those who are just too lazy to work and are content to leech off the system forever.
We don't have a very functional national culture anymore and it precludes our ability to implement these grand schemes.
They also have 10% unemployment.
Random Guy, I just want to say that I have the utmost respect for you beyond what words can express. You handle yourself very well with a high level of morality and intelligence. And obviously you have a big heart for the less fortunate and much forgotten.
For what it's worth, your story is a great one and just from another human being, I'd like to thank you for the human being that you are and the help that you give and the beliefs that you have.
The world needs more people like you. Great posts.
That's roughly 20% in the East, and 7% in the West.
It will take generations to undo the damage the Communists did to the eastern Länder. In the prosperous western Länder, which have been under (mixed) capitalism for 60 years, the system works OK.
But my point was, just because it works in Germany doesn't mean it will work here. They take a lot of trade-offs we would not accept. Very few people are poor over there, but very few are all that rich either, and while the middle-class standard of living is comfortable, it is less than what we have in the U.S. They are willing to trade opportunity for some added security, and are willing to follow the rules of the system. They aren't that way because some politician convinced them to be that way. They are that way because they are German, and that's just the way their society is.
The U.S., at least philosophically, favors greater economic dynamism in pursuit of opportunity. That's why people emigrated here. Unfortunately, thanks to rampant corruption and collusion between business magnates and the government, places like Italy and Singapore are more economically dynamic than the U.S., but at least in theory that's what we want, that's the nexus of our values.
Unfortunately, and this is getting back to my first point, we also have a big chunk of our society that doesn't believe in following the rules, that is not willing to work for the greater good, that is all about getting theirs and telling everyone else to go f*** themselves. This manifests itself everywhere from people who don't want to work and are looking for a handout, to wealthy folks at the top of the corporate food chains who pay one another hundreds of millions of dollars a year because nobody can stop them.
That latter cultural value is a big reason why Third World countries are the way they are. It does not portend great things for our future. And it certainly it not something government has any power to solve, although we certainly see it manifest all over our government in both parties.
let me restate, 4.8% in the US and 12.1% in Germany. Germany is an example of using capitalism to change society for the better. Nevertheless, your point is well taken and I agree with a lot of what you say.
Last edited by 2centsworth; 06-23-2006 at 12:35 PM.
more self-righteousness. He's moral because he's a democrat. Conservatism solves the problems of the less fortunate, liberalism empathizes with the problems.Random Guy, I just want to say that I have the utmost respect for you beyond what words can express. You handle yourself very well with a high level of morality and intelligence. And obviously you have a big heart for the less fortunate and much forgotten.
For what it's worth, your story is a great one and just from another human being, I'd like to thank you for the human being that you are and the help that you give and the beliefs that you have.
The world needs more people like you. Great posts.
With all due respect, my post was directed at Random Guy for a very particular reason. You have made your point and stance very obvious and it goes against what both of us beleive in, and I'm not talking from a Democrats standpoint. By the way, I'm not a Democrat.
I'm speaking of certain morals and values, particularly from a Christian standpoint. I happened to really enjoy what he had to say. That doesn't make someone self-righteous. If you feel that having that belief takes anything away from you in anyway, I apologize, but maybe it's something inside you, that you could look at.
I just wanted to thank him.
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