It's simple Panathinaikos (as most Euro teams) is finnalizing their roster. they weren't willing to wait for a week to see what the Spurs will do, especially since the probabal result would be Spurs signing Javtokas.
And Javtokas wanted more than LLE, so the Spurs couldn't sign him right away.
Javtokas didn't want to risk, so he signed one year sure deal.
It makes no sense to say Javtokas was any more than their third priority. Javtokas could have been had and the Spurs knew the price. The Spurs made him the contingiency/back up plan thinking he would wait. They made the offers to Elson and Butler and Javtokas realized what they were doing. He got offended, as I think most would, and decided it wasnt worth waiting around for if he wasnt a priority.
Yeah - they alwayes could sign 30 more players and wait what will javtokas doSo If Javtokas was asking for a ridiculous amount of money for a totally unproven player in the NBA, then thats the FO's fault?
of course...
EVERYTHING is the FO's fault.
yeah, the thing about jav not being the third option seems dubious considering that if the spurs won out with elson and butler, there'd be no money, presumably, for jav, which is probably what he figured. the big x factor is new york, which we now see isn't 100 percent going to sign butler. if you're overseas trying to get in and see that much uncertainty, esp. if you think you're worth more, then going with the sure bet makes sense.
i hope the knicks match just so i can hear the excuses the idiots on here have for passing up on Javtokas.
so butler and elson was the plan? ing dumb.
neither elson nor butler are better than narz or rasho. anyone with any basketball sense knows that. considering all the ing you fools did over nazr and rasho's play, i can't i can't imagine the whine fest that will be this board come this season.
Last edited by itzsoweezee; 07-15-2006 at 09:02 AM.
Javtokas got pissed that he wasn't enough of a priority for the Spurs? What was all that time he spent in San Antonio? Scola and Jav have really stupid agents.
he is also manu's agent and oberta
scola's issue was not the money
Hmm, sounds like we put some real curve balls in the contracts. I'd say we're looking a little better as far as our chances go...The seven-day window the Knicks and Nuggets have to keep the restricted free agents didn't start until Thursday because NBA lawyers asked the Spurs to clarify some of the language in both contract offers.
Mr. Body, I don't think you're getting it either. The way I read the article it sounds like there was something in his Greek contract that set a deadline of Friday to either take it or leave it.Manny, no disrespect, but I don't think you're getting it. The issue is not picking Elson over Javtokas. The issue is losing their insurance policy through bad communication. The article clearly states they wanted to sign him to whichever slot was matched.
There was no miscommunication or lack thereof there, just the devil in the details.
You've got nothing to substantiate your claims either, other than your hard on for Javtokas.
ing get over it.
It's been widely reported the Spurs offered the MLE, and that Rudoy was asking for more than the LLE. Which totally go in the face of your argument. You're wrong.Maybe Javtokas asked for too much money. Whatever it was, I can assure you it wasn't out of market price - Rudoy wouldn't do it, anyway. But if the terms were too high, the Spurs might have tried a little thing like 'negotiation' and offer a lower price. For centuries humans have done this sort of thing.
So you want to see the Spurs team miss out and have a hole at center just so you can say I told you so on a ing bulletin board?
You're not a Spurs fan, you're a dumbass. Anyone who wants to see their team get ed in the FA chase just so they can egg someone on a bulletin board doesn't deserve to be able to say they are a fan of their team.
Weak.
I actually think it's quite plausible that the calculations associated with the Javtokas situation came down to a conclusion that the Spurs could find a basketball value similar to Javtokas elsewhere. They've made a decision that both Elson and Buter are more likely to provide immediate help to the basketball team than Javtokas and so they prioritized the RFAs. I think they also HAD to prioritize them in order to get these deals done -- it's unlikely that they could have offered one, waited, and then offered the other if the first offer was matched. But my point is that the decision to prioritize those guys and to take a "take-it-or-leave-it, we'll come back to you if something falls through" stance with Javtokas makes great sense if you think that Javtokas will be marginal at best and that his skill set are easily duplicated by other available players.
It seems to me that a significant assumption underlying Mr. Body's argument (adopted by the pro-Javotaks camp) is that Javtokas is going to be able to contribute in the NBA and that the Spurs will regret their choices because they won't be able to find a player of his quality a week from now.
I don't know how anyone can make that assumption -- he's never done it. And you can try to point to the Olympics or his play in Euro games as evidence, but we've seen in recent years that for all of the Manus and Nowitzkis and Gasols of the world who excel in every context, there are many international players who look good in some contexts but can't get it done in the NBA -- players like Sarunas Jasikevicius or Arvydas Macijauskas (or even Oberto, perhaps) for instance. I'm not sure there's a justifiable basis for an assumption that Javtokas will be able to contribute at the NBA level to an extent that would exceed the contributions the Spurs might get from the average player still left on the market. It's purely an article of faith by fans who have, for whatever reason, taken up the Javtokas flag.
If the Spurs have reached the opposite conclusion, however, I'd be willing to assume that that's a reasoned determination based on extensive scouting and an intimate familiarity with the nuances of the NBA.
Last edited by FromWayDowntown; 07-15-2006 at 11:49 AM.
Looks like the Spurs threw a of a poison pill in the contract.Yippee. We have to wait an extra day
The argument I've made lately has nothing to do with what Javtokas will be able to do in the NBA. It has to do with bodies. As in, beginning the season with two centers (not named Duncan). My presumption at this point is that there is very little difference in talent level in the Butler/Javtokas/Elson triad. If there are variances in experience and upside, then fine.
The Spurs are taking an enormous risk in possibly going into the year with only Elson as their man, with Butler being matched. My argument is that Javtokas was intended to slide into the Butler slot if he was. Just to get the two bodies. It has nothing to do with how good he is, and RJ would have been glad to get what was offered Butler. I see nothing to suggest otherwise, plus it's much more money than what Greece offered (for those delerious with the "RJ is a greedy bas " idea).
Now, the Spurs must have thought they could have Javtokas stand by while those offers waited for a week. They had to have - or else they're foolhardy. Something went wrong in the couple days surrounding the beginning of free agent contract signing and either he thought the offers were off the board entirely and he signed with Pan, or he was a little ticked that the Spurs took a massive and unexpected turn in negotiations and he took a better offer to play elsewhere ('better' = anywhere). In both cases, a lot of fault lies with the Spurs org, if more so in the first case.
This no longer has to do with "is Javtokas better than Elson"? That's a moot point now. The question is, "Will the Spurs have enough capable players in uniform?" And, if they don't, then I fail to see how it's anybody's fault but their own.
If you presume there is very little difference in talent level, then why are you mad at the front office for not handing Jav and his agent a blank check? Because that's about the only argument you have at this point.My presumption at this point is that there is very little difference in talent level in the Butler/Javtokas/Elson triad. If there are variances in experience and upside, then fine.
If there is only a marginal gap in talent levels between the three, then you can't expect the Spurs front office to be willing to overpay one of the three just because you've told all your friends how great the guy is going to be when he comes to the Spurs based off some video clips against weak Euro compe ion.
If September 1 gets here and we still don't have any centers, feel free to . Until then you just look like a bitter Javtokas cheerleader.This no longer has to do with "is Javtokas better than Elson"? That's a moot point now. The question is, "Will the Spurs have enough capable players in uniform?" And, if they don't, then I fail to see how it's anybody's fault but their own.
I think that everybody is making assumptions in what went down between the FO and Jav and his agent. To me its nobody's fault, Jav felt he had a better opportunity and the Spurs felt obligated to go with players that have actually played in the NBA and don't need a half or full season to adjust to a culture shock. If I was running the team and I had arguably the best player in the league in his prime I would go with experience over a project with potential. When it comes to Butler and Elson you've seen them play and know how they play against the same players you play against. With Jav you just don't know. Highlights are great but they aren't against the same people you play against.
Money had something to do with it on both sides cause it always does. The Spurs know what they want and know what they want to pay for it. Everybody loved Malik when he was on the cheap but hated him when he got money. Rasho did good for a minute but with what they were paying him wouldn't have been worth it and would have strapped the team for a couple more years. Unlike the Knicks the Spurs management will try not to keep over spending on average talent just because others want them too.
Nobody wanted Nazr back including me and I feel like if we would have had to spend the full MLE on him we would have been in worse shape than what everybody thinks. Imagine you give Nazr the MLE then what. What do you do after that. You have one center, no money and possibly two more holes to fill with LLE money. I like the moves the Spurs have made. When you start to look at the other teams and the moves they make you start to try to force the hand and make irrational decisions. We still have the big three and major contributors with championship experience. After that all you need is servicable role players that understand team concept and bust their ass.
Ag, like a lot of people on this board, you have a talent for creating straw men arguments. Where did I say they should have presented him with a blank check? He would be offered the Butler money, if it were matched. I was ticked for a while that they selected Elson over Jak. What I'm talking about now has nothing to do with that, which doesn't say much for your reading comprehension.
Now you're either being willfully obtuse or you just can't read. Listen to me: THIS IS AN ISSUE OF HAVING TWO CENTERS NEXT YEAR TO PLAY WITH DUNCAN. I don't care if that is Elson/Butler or if it is Elson/Javtokas. What has happened, however, is the Plan B IS NOT THERE. I'm questioning WHY.If there is only a marginal gap in talent levels between the three, then you can't expect the Spurs front office to be willing to overpay one of the three just because you've told all your friends how great the guy is going to be when he comes to the Spurs based off some video clips against weak Euro compe ion.
I feel like I'm talking to someone who barely speaks English and has never even heard of the language.If September 1 gets here and we still don't have any centers, feel free to . Until then you just look like a bitter Javtokas cheerleader.
I think the choice the Spurs made was very clear. They had he MLE and decided first that they needed a real center. Going into the season with Tim as your biggest guy is not a good move. They wanted someone short term and went after Elson. To get him here and to prevent the matching, they are overpaying him at $3M per year, but they would rather do that than get someone long term. With the money left, they decided they would rather take a stab at Butler than sign Javtokas. They took a gamble. Maybe they thought Robertas would wait- who knows- but they took that gamble. If the Knicks do not match and Butler comes, people will think it was a great move. If the Knicks match and the Spurs end up with only Elson out of the three, people will be mad and say it was stupid. We will know which in a few days. Similarly, Spurs traded Rasho and took the gamble that Nazr would stay. He didn't. Now in hindsight, some of the people who liked the Rasho trade, question it.
Mr. Body, I get the same sense about you and the 'english language'.
So, if the Spurs can have their two centers for a combined 5 million, but they would have had to have spend 7 million for the two to make Jav one of them, tell me again why they should have gone through with it.Now you're either being willfully obtuse or you just can't read. Listen to me: THIS IS AN ISSUE OF HAVING TWO CENTERS NEXT YEAR TO PLAY WITH DUNCAN. I don't care if that is Elson/Butler or if it is Elson/Javtokas. What has happened, however, is the Plan B IS NOT THERE. I'm questioning WHY.
And keep in mind, that's not a true 7 million, it's really closer to 10 million with where they are with respect to the salary cap.
The simple fact is the Spurs didn't feel Jav was worth what his agent was asking, and they didn't buy his agent's bluff. That doesn't give you free reign to *blame* the front office for it not working out, as you seem bent on doing.
As for reading comprehension, you aren't even making the same argument as you made back on page 2, so I guess you could stand to do a little bit of learning about consistency as well.
Not at all.Now in hindsight, some of the people who liked the Rasho trade, question it.
Getting rid of that stiff makes the offseason all the more worthwhile.
Gmafb.
Agg-- please find me where it said Javtokas was asking for too much money and that was anywhere close to $5M/yr. Your argument shores against an entirely fabricated notion.
Javtokas never asked for $4 million if that's what he saying. $7 million for two centers when Elson is asking for $3 million means Jav is asking for $4million.
You are calling our front office a failure for not signing Javtokas. Media reports indicate the reason he isn't with the team is due to the finances of the contract.
So, if you're blaming the front office, and the front office felt he was asking too much, you're in essence blaming them for not ponying up for the guy.
Where else is there to go with all the whining about Jav not signing here being the fault of our front office?
I never said he was. I'm saying it would have cost more to land Javtokas + one of either Elson or Butler than it will should we land Elson and Butler.
I thought that was pretty clear in my argument, I apologize if not.
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