And, yet, the appeasing whiners of the world...

[MannyIsGod]

And as for the reason for large volume of civilian deaths, stop trying to lay blame in places it doesn't belong based on one picture. Thats ridiculousness.

In Israeli eyes, the value of the life of an Israeli solider far exceeds the value of a Lebanese civilian. Thats why they die. Its easier to send in a missle to kill a terrorist in an apartment building where you know there will be civilian deaths than to risk sending in troops to avoid some civilian casualties.

But yes, I'm sure the logical explanation is because every militiaman has a personal possee of admirers.

[Yonivore]

And as for the reason for large volume of civilian deaths, stop trying to lay blame in places it doesn't belong based on one picture. Thats ridiculousness.

So, the Palestinians and Lebanese have a civil defense and shelter system?

In Israeli eyes, the value of the life of an Israeli solider far exceeds the value of a Lebanese civilian. Thats why they die.

That's your opinion. Not supported by any facts, just rhetoric.

Its easier to send in a missle to kill a terrorist in an apartment building where you know there will be civilian deaths than to risk sending in troops to avoid some civilian casualties.

Yep. And, when rockets are being launched from that apartment building, a good distance from any ground troops able to attack, it is more expedient as well.

When's the last time you heard of the IDF launching military assets from civilian populations? And, if they did, would you condemn the Palestinians or Hezbollah for launching rockets into their civilian populations in an attempt to take out a military target? Oh wait, you don't even condemn it when they indiscriminately launch rockets into civilian populations of Israel where there are no military assets. Silly me.

But yes, I'm sure the logical explanation is because every militiaman has a personal possee of admirers.

I don't know, what is the logical explanation beyond - the AP is lying. Which, I concede could be the case.

[MannyIsGod]

So, the Palestinians and Lebanese have a civil defense and shelter system?


That's your opinion. Not supported by any facts, just rhetoric.


Yep. And, when rockets are being launched from that apartment building, a good distance from any ground troops able to attack, it is more expedient as well.

When's the last time you heard of the IDF launching military assets from civilian populations? And, if they did, would you condemn the Palestinians or Hezbollah for launching rockets into their civilian populations in an attempt to take out a military target? Oh wait, you don't even condemn it when they indiscriminately launch rockets into civilian populations of Israel where there are no military assets. Silly me.


I don't know, what is the logical explanation beyond - the AP is lying. Which, I concede could be the case.

Are you challenging my statement that Israeli's view the life of their soldiers as more valuable than those of Lebanese and Palestinian civilians?

Sure, launching attacks on rockets coming from apartment buildings is something you love to toss around. Unfortunetly Israel's military goes after suspected terrorist leaders in apartment buildings in the same manner when there is no imminent threat from that location.

As for the AP lying, it is irrelevant because you cannot draw conclusions from one picture. You love to grab onto a sensationalist item like this and spin it to the max. Oh look look look!!!! Only idiots draw conclusions from such a narrow source.

[mookie2001]

Typical liberal response

very untypical conservative response

[smeagol]

Its easier to send in a missle to kill a terrorist in an apartment building where you know there will be civilian deaths than to risk sending in troops to avoid some civilian casualties.

Well, at least they launch missiles to try to kill terrorists. Which military target do suicide bombers try to go after when they blow themselves up in a market place?

[mookie2001]

youre right governments are better than suicide bombers

[Hook Dem]

Well, at least they launch missiles to try to kill terrorists. Which military target do suicide bombers try to go after when they blow themselves up in a market place?

Damn good question!

[MannyIsGod]

Well, at least they launch missiles to try to kill terrorists. Which military target do suicide bombers try to go after when they blow themselves up in a market place?

Thats such a ing non sequitor. I'm not arguing for terrorists, I'm arguing against Israel's actions. They are not the same argument. It is possible for for BOTH to be wrong.

I'm so damn sick of people busting out the "AT LEAST" card. Stick to the argument at hand and don't use diversionary tactics.

I really doubt dead people are all the concerned with "AT LEAST" arguements.

[smeagol]

Thats such a ing non sequitor. I'm not arguing for terrorists, I'm arguing against Israel's actions. They are not the same argument. It is possible for for BOTH to be wrong.

I'm so damn sick of people busting out the "AT LEAST" card. Stick to the argument at hand and don't use diversionary tactics.

I really doubt dead people are all the concerned with "AT LEAST" arguements.

No need to blow a gasquet. I asked a simple question.

In any case, I believe my question is related to the argument at hand because Israel is at war with the terrorists. Israel's attacks usually come in response to a terrorist attack or a missile being shot at Israeli civilians. Unfortunately, these are the methods Israel has to use to stop people who are maniacs.

In other words, no suicide attacks, no Israel bombing buidings where terrorists hide (and killing civilians), trying to kill those terrorists so they are unable to commit yet another suicide attack. It's that simple.

I believe, placed in the situation Israel is in, any government in the world would react very similarly. I have no doubt, if people were being blown to pieces in the streets of Manhattan by suicide bombers, and the US had a vague idea in which cities of the Middle East (or wherever else in the World) the perpetrators of those acts were hidding, those cities, and all its civilians, would be blown into oblivion in a nano-second.

[MannyIsGod]

I believe, placed in the situation Israel is in, any government in the world would react very similarly. I have no doubt, if people were being blown to pieces in the streets of Manhattan by suicide bombers, and the US had a vague idea in which cities of the Middle East (or wherever else in the World) the perpetrators of those acts were hidding, those cities, and all its civilians, would be blown into oblivion in a nano-second.

Thats a total crock of . Take a look at Afghanistan and Iraq. Our military doesn't operate that way.

Isreal is also occuping lands that aren't theirs. People under occupation will find someway to fight back. Do not be suprised if desprate people seek desprate measures.

The point stands that Isreal bombs apartment buildings to get a single person without regard to who else is in there.

I will admit this, if the US found out Osama Bin Laden was in an apartment building somewhere in the world and we had the ability to drop a bomb on that building we woudlnt' give a rats ass who was in there. But Isreal doesn't do this for people of Osama's status, they do this for people who bring Osam his coffee.

[Ya Vez]

if someone is firing missles from my apartment building .. I sure as ain't sticking around to see what the response is going to be....

[Yonivore]

if someone is firing missles from my apartment building .. I sure as ain't sticking around to see what the response is going to be....

You're obviously not Palestinian or Lebanese then.

[smeagol]

Thats a total crock of . Take a look at Afghanistan and Iraq. Our military doesn't operate that way.

You're kidding, right?

Explain to me how all those Afghani and Iraqui civilians died?

I remember vivid images on my TV, in the early stages of the Iraqui invasion, of civilians bieng killed by American bombs.

Nevertheless, your analogy is far from perfect.

Imagin terrorists blowing up themselves in streets and markets San Diego, or San Antonio for that matter, and hiding in Tijuana or Laredo or someplace in Mexico to plan the next attack. Now imagin this goes on for years and years.

That's a better analogy than what you bring to the table.

Isreal is also occuping lands that aren't theirs.

Many countries occupy land that is not theirs. And who's land it is is up for discussion. It's certainlky not you who has the monopoly of the truth in this matter.

People under occupation will find someway to fight back. Do not be suprised if desprate people seek desprate measures.

Ok, so suicide bombings is somewhat justified then?

The point stands that Isreal bombs apartment buildings to get a single person without regard to who else is in there.

The point is Israel tries to defend itself from the next terrorist attack. As I said before, stop the terrorist bombings and Israels attacks will stop almost immediately.

I will admit this, if the US found out Osama Bin Laden was in an apartment building somewhere in the world and we had the ability to drop a bomb on that building we woudlnt' give a rats ass who was in there. But Isreal doesn't do this for people of Osama's status, they do this for people who bring Osam his coffee.

As I said before, America did not target civilians on purposes, but what is going on in Iraq is a war, just like what goes on in Gaza. Americans, as well as Israelis, kill civilians (isn't it called collateral damage in military lingo?). Don't kid yourself.

[Clandestino]

whatever.. those little terrorist ers are going to be the next crop of adult terrorists anyway... kill them while they are young and before they turn 16 and blow up a whole marketplace...

[MannyIsGod]

You're kidding, right?

Explain to me how all those Afghani and Iraqui civilians died?

I remember vivid images on my TV, in the early stages of the Iraqui invasion, of civilians bieng killed by American bombs.

Nevertheless, your analogy is far from perfect.

Imagin terrorists blowing up themselves in streets and markets San Diego, or San Antonio for that matter, and hiding in Tijuana or Laredo or someplace in Mexico to plan the next attack. Now imagin this goes on for years and years.

That's a better analogy than what you bring to the table.



Many countries occupy land that is not theirs. And who's land it is is up for discussion. It's certainlky not you who has the monopoly of the truth in this matter.



Ok, so suicide bombings is somewhat justified then?



The point is Israel tries to defend itself from the next terrorist attack. As I said before, stop the terrorist bombings and Israels attacks will stop almost immediately.



As I said before, America did not target civilians on purposes, but what is going on in Iraq is a war, just like what goes on in Gaza. Americans, as well as Israelis, kill civilians (isn't it called collateral damage in military lingo?). Don't kid yourself.

No one in the world disuputes that Israel is taking part in an illegal occupation, not even our government, yet you are?

You justify Isreal's actions but not the Palestinians?


You have no clue as to American military tactics if you think we do the same thing Isreali's do. Like I said before, your statement is a crock of .

Oh, and if you want to go down the "if there were no ... there would be no .." route then realize that if there were no Isreali occupation there would be no suicide bombing. I know, this is where you go into your rhetoric about how they want to drive the Jews into the sea.

[ChumpDumper]

I believe, placed in the situation Israel is in, any government in the world would react very similarly. I have no doubt, if people were being blown to pieces in the streets of Manhattan by suicide bombers, and the US had a vague idea in which cities of the Middle East (or wherever else in the World) the perpetrators of those acts were hidding, those cities, and all its civilians, would be blown into oblivion in a nano-second.

Our invasions of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan after 9/11 support this argument.

[smeagol]

You justify Isreal's actions but not the Palestinians?

I can't believe you equate a suicide bombing which deliverataly targets innocent civilians, including woman an children, and missiles trying to kill those same terrorists.

You have no clue as to American military tactics if you think we do the same thing Isreali's do

Sure Manny, I don't and you do. My eyes were decieving me back in 2002 and 2003 when the US was bombing the out of Afghanistan and Iraq and all those civilians were getting killed.

Like I said before, your statement is a crock of .

No it is not. By many accounts thousands of civilians died in Afghanistan and Iraq, all of them killed by American bombings, but this is somehow different than what Israel does. Right.

Oh, and if you want to go down the "if there were no ... there would be no .." route then realize that if there were no Isreali occupation there would be no suicide bombing. I know, this is where you go into your rhetoric about how they want to drive the Jews into the sea.

Isreal's occupation of what? Of Gaza and the West Bank? There is a reason why they are there. In any case, they offered a plan to withdraw from there, and Arafat reject it. Remember? which is a good segway to your point: "Radicals want to draw the Jews into the sea". Do you deny this?

[smeagol]

Our invasions of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan after 9/11 support this argument.

Bombing Afghanistan back to the stone age, where the real perpetrators of 9/11 were hidding, supports my argument.

As usual, your one liner makes little sense.

[MannyIsGod]

We didn't bomb Afghanistan back to the stone age numb nuts. You know who attacked Kabul? The Nothern Alliance. Afghanistan natives themselves. Not the United States Military. We bombed the out of the mountains but we did very little bombing within cities. We actually sent in troops or let the NA do the fighting.

Same thing in Iraq. We plastered the out of military targets but we didn't go after every apartment building that might house a republican guard soldier or a member of Sadaams government.

You can say what you want about our entry into the Iraq war, but to say anything about the restraint and rules of engagement of the US military is simple ignorance. The United States could sit back and bomb the out of the world if we wanted to, but there are many times where they send in troops on the ground to avoid collateral damage.

Arafat was stupid to reject the deal, but that was 10 years ago. He offered to accept it later, but Isreal refused. You should read on the history of those talks and just how well the blame is spread around. There is plenty of it to be had by every party. I dont' dillude myself that either side is anything but a stubborn group of idiots who's hatred drive them to do horrible things. But don't try to paint the Isrealis as angels. Thats a load of .

[smeagol]

We didn't bomb Afghanistan back to the stone age numb nuts.

I don't think I have insulted you once in this thread, but whatever.

You know who attacked Kabul? The Nothern Alliance. Afghanistan natives themselves. Not the United States Military. We bombed the out of the mountains but we did very little bombing within cities. We actually sent in troops or let the NA do the fighting.

Same thing in Iraq. We plastered the out of military targets but we didn't go after every apartment building that might house a republican guard soldier or a member of Sadaams government.

You can say what you want about our entry into the Iraq war, but to say anything about the restraint and rules of engagement of the US military is simple ignorance. The United States could sit back and bomb the out of the world if we wanted to, but there are many times where they send in troops on the ground to avoid collateral damage.

OK, you've convinced me. No civilians were killed by US bombings in Afghanistan and Iraq

In any case, as I said in a prior post. What Israel has to live with, the suicide bombings, is something not many countries have to live with. The Iraq war analogy is not a good one.

If the US were attacked in this way by radical Mexicans, adn these Mexicans would go and hide in appartment buildings full of civilians, those civilians would die together with the terrorists by a US bombing. Do you agree with this or not?

[smeagol]

But don't try to paint the Isrealis as angels. Thats a load of .

They are not angels. I never said they were. But they are better than the other side, that's for sure.

Same as the Russian government is better than the Chechnyan terrorists or the Spanish governemnt is better than ETA. I have no sympathy for terrorists. I'm not sure about you.

I have seen terrorists much closer than you have. The only good terrorist is the one that is dead.

[smeagol]

You seem to believe Israel should take it up the ass every time a terrorist blows himself up in a market or a bus stop, killing dozens of Israelis. I believe it's their right to retaliate.

[ChumpDumper]

Bombing Afghanistan back to the stone age, where the real perpetrators of 9/11 were hidding, supports my argument.

As usual, your one liner makes little sense.

Where were the perpetrators from?

Where did the ones hiding in Afghanistan go after that country was invaded?

Sorry to make you think about it.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't think I have insulted you once in this thread, but whatever.



OK, you've convinced me. No civilians were killed by US bombings in Afghanistan and Iraq

In any case, as I said in a prior post. What Israel has to live with, the suicide bombings, is something not many countries have to live with. The Iraq war analogy is not a good one.

If the US were attacked in this way by radical Mexicans, adn these Mexicans would go and hide in appartment buildings full of civilians, those civilians would die together with the terrorists by a US bombing. Do you agree with this or not?

I absolutely disagree that Mexican civillians would die in that manner. I never said no civillians died in Iraq or Afghanistan, I said that the Israeli military takes far fewer considerations as far as collateral damage is concerned. If you're going to try to disprove my arguments make sure you get them right.

[MannyIsGod]

They are not angels. I never said they were. But they are better than the other side, that's for sure.

Same as the Russian government is better than the Chechnyan terrorists or the Spanish governemnt is better than ETA. I have no sympathy for terrorists. I'm not sure about you.

I have seen terrorists much closer than you have. The only good terrorist is the one that is dead.

Thats great. When people stop trying to control other people then perhaps terrorists will cease to exsist. 50 years ago, violence against Isreal was due to religous ideology. Today it stems - as does much of the other terrorism in the world - to occupations and people fighting for independence. They use ty methods, but they use them because they work in the long run.

I know its really great to have catch phrases like the only terrorist is a good one, but if you think you can kill every terrorist in the world or if you think this is a fight that will be won with killing then I'll talk to you 50 years from now when people may finally realize that you never end movements like this by killing. Never.