E-N: Study shows Texas high school Bible courses as sectarian, not academic

[Phenomanul]

It appears that a wide swath of posters agree that there is considerable academic value in teaching students about the Bible. It also appears that fundamentalists in the public schools are incapable of teaching the Bible in a way that is anywhere near being remotely consistent with our laws, or the basic tenets of religious freedom upon which our country was founded.

So, we are left with either auditing these curricula to ensure compliance, or doing away with these electives altogether.

I don't disagree with correcting how these classes should be taught...

But there is a difference between that concern and the abolishment of the right for that class to exist in the first place.


Also realize that the language is far more hostile than would be generated by an objective study. Consider the source.

[ChumpDumper]

But there is a difference between that concern and the abolishment of the right for that class to exist in the first place.

Since examples of acceptable classes were given, I fail to see a call for an outright ban.

Also realize that the language is far more hostile than would be generated by an objective study. Consider the source.

I'd be glad to read the findings of a similarly thorough study from the other side, if one exists.

[boutons_]

"in teaching students about the Bible."

I'm all for academc courses like "history of (all) religion", "comparative religion", "In search of the Historical Jesus", "metaphysics", "philosophy of religion", but these courses are usually college level, probably because HS level and below kids are mostly adhering blindly to their parents religion, and the parents may not want the under-18 kids to learn that their sect of Christianity is just one of many approaches to Truth.

[Phenomanul]

It is still the case, even moreso now. You should know that. Trying to pretend school board members don't have agendas is completely disingenuous.

You misunderstood me. I know about the existence of school board agendas... What I was saying was that most of these agendas are anti-religious in nature not the other way around.... this shift has occurred to appease the 'politically correct' crowd that lobbies solely on a misinterpretation of the 'separation of church and state' clause while ignoring the 'establishment' principle...

[ChumpDumper]

You misunderstood me. I know about the existence of school board agendas... What I was saying was that most of these agendas are anti-religious in nature not the other way around.... this shift has occurred to appease the 'politically correct' crowd that lobbies solely on a misinterpretation of the 'separation of church and state' clause while ignoring the 'establishment' principle...

The very existence of these Bible courses that ignore legal guidelines indicates otherwise. It depends on the locality.

[Phenomanul]

In either case....

The class instruction methods should be regulated.

[Extra Stout]

I don't disagree with correcting how these classes should be taught...

But there is a difference between that concern and the abolishment of the right for that class to exist in the first place.


Also realize that the language is far more hostile than would be generated by an objective study. Consider the source.

Ideally, the class should exist.

I don't know if it has a "right" to exist, other than in the general rights of the states to conduct their business under the Tenth Amendment. If the cons uents want this sort of thing, then the states have the authority to ins ute it --- until it runs up against the Establishment Clause. If a state decides that the pervasive abuse of the curriculum by fundamentalist zealots is more trouble than it is worth, then it also should have the authority not to allow these electives, or not to allow them without rigorous vetting.

And from my reading of the report, if anything, their langauge is understated relative to the flagrant disregard of even the narrowest notions of religious freedom as conceived by the Founding Fathers being perpretrated by people I can only describe as virulently theocratic.

[Phenomanul]

The very existence of these Bible courses that ignore legal guidelines indicates otherwise. It depends on the locality.

You realize how small the percentage was of school districts that even offered the elective.

That's more telling to me.

[Spurminator]

It takes a very good teacher to give a secular course on religion and manage the curriculum in a way that the main focus is historical. I'm not sure many of my HS teachers could have handled it... you'd have to balance the inevitable discussions about student/teacher personal beliefs and the primary historical objective of the class.

[Extra Stout]

You misunderstood me. I know about the existence of school board agendas... What I was saying was that most of these agendas are anti-religious in nature not the other way around.... this shift has occurred to appease the 'politically correct' crowd that lobbies solely on a misinterpretation of the 'separation of church and state' clause while ignoring the 'establishment' principle...

I would disagree with your characterization; most of the secularist pressure has come from the top down through the courts. The counterattack by the religious right has been to elect sympathetic candidates onto school boards.

[ChumpDumper]

You realize how small the percentage was of school districts that even offered the elective.

That's more telling to me.

The word "elective" is telling to me. Besides, the article doesn't make clear if the 25 districts are the complete total of schools offering the class or just the sample they used.

[Extra Stout]

It takes a very good teacher to give a secular course on religion and manage the curriculum in a way that the main focus is historical. I'm not sure many of my HS teachers could have handled it... you'd have to balance the inevitable discussions about student/teacher personal beliefs and the primary historical objective of the class.

Teachers rarely develop their own curricula. they teach what the district tells them, occasionally with some la ude to freelance. If a school district is looking to offer a Biblical elective class, there are several theocratic organizations with talented salesman employing a slick marketing scheme to present their well-packaged theocratic curriculum.

Does anything analogous exist for balanced, literary/historical curricula? I doubt it.

[Mr. Peabody]

The word "elective" is telling to me. Besides, the article doesn't make clear if the 25 districts are the complete total of schools offering the class or just the sample they used.

The report says that only 25 of over 1000 Texas school districts offered Bible courses.

Report

[johnsmith]

The Jews are best authority on the OT, probably the best ( since they actually wrote it for their own people, and haven't stopped analyzing it for 2000+ years). I find highly presumptious that Christian Bible-thumpers think they have any right to dispute OT with Jews.

Very intelligent........yes, only jews can analyze the OT, and only Christians can analyze the NT, and only Muslims can analyze the Qur'an........etc......... you are an idiot. Why would you even throw this into this discussion?

[Mr. Peabody]

You realize how small the percentage was of school districts that even offered the elective.

That's more telling to me.

How many of the school districts offer an elective on Chaucer or astronomy or philosophy? With so many worthy subjects out there, it's not hard to see how this one particular subject could be left out of the curriculum.

[ChumpDumper]

The report says that only 25 of over 1000 Texas school districts offered Bible courses.

Report

Thanks for the link. I actually thought there would be more.

[Mr. Peabody]

Thanks for the link. I actually thought there would be more.

I was surprised at how many small school districts offered such a course. I'd be interested in seeing what courses are not being offered in these schools that should have been offered instead of a Bible class.

[Spurminator]

Teachers rarely develop their own curricula. they teach what the district tells them, occasionally with some la ude to freelance. If a school district is looking to offer a Biblical elective class, there are several theocratic organizations with talented salesman employing a slick marketing scheme to present their well-packaged theocratic curriculum.

True, but inevitably the teacher will find herself/himself in situations where the class discussion (or student essays, etc.) goes beyond the directed curricula. The teacher will need to find a balance that doesn't repress or undermine the students' personal beliefs, but also keeps the focus historical.

[Phenomanul]

The word "elective" is telling to me. Besides, the article doesn't make clear if the 25 districts are the complete total of schools offering the class or just the sample they used.

Didn't the article say it looked at 1000 districts (unless I misread it)???


Edit: Nevermind... already been answered.

[Mr. Peabody]

True, but inevitably the teacher will find herself/himself in situations where the class discussion (or student essays, etc.) goes beyond the directed curricula. The teacher will need to find a balance that doesn't repress or undermine the students' personal beliefs, but also keeps the focus historical.

It could very well be the case that students at this level are not mature enough to handle an academic discussion of religion. , there are college freshman and sophmores that aren't mature enough to handle discussion about religion without getting offended or offending others.

[Extra Stout]

Thanks for the link. I actually thought there would be more.

According to the report, other districts have attempted to offer the class, only to cancel it for lack of interest.

[Spurminator]

It could very well be the case that students at this level are not mature enough to handle an academic discussion of religion. , there are college freshman and sophmores that aren't mature enough to handle discussion about religion without getting offended or offending others.

I don't know, I think they can handle it... especially if it's an elective. Of course, all I have to go on are my classmaes from 8-10 years ago. But I'm not sure if the average public HS teacher can juggle such sensitive responsibilities while also engaging the students.

[Extra Stout]

It could very well be the case that students at this level are not mature enough to handle an academic discussion of religion. , there are college freshman and sophmores that aren't mature enough to handle discussion about religion without getting offended or offending others.

From my own personal experience, in high school my World History class in 10th Grade included a unit on the five major world religions (C, J, I, H, B), and British Literature in 12th Grade included a unit on the KJB.

[Phenomanul]

I would disagree with your characterization; most of the secularist pressure has come from the top down through the courts. The counterattack by the religious right has been to elect sympathetic candidates onto school boards.

Again, the small percentage of schools that actually have this elective to begin with would dictate otherwise. Let's not forget both sides have their proponents; but of late it only takes one anti-religious parent to stir up a storm and do away with such a class. The same can't be said for the 'other side' -- (with exceptions of course.... there's always exceptions to everything).

[Spurminator]

From my own personal experience, in high school my World History class in 10th Grade included a unit on the five major world religions (C, J, I, H, B), and British Literature in 12th Grade included a unit on the KJB.

If I recall correctly we devoted equal time over a month or so to those five plus Taoism and Confucianism.