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They'll never take me alive.
I'm sure I'll be seeing you head up to the Attorney General's office in my building sometime in the near future as well.
They'll never take me alive.
I know this isn't the first time this kind of thing has happened, and I know there are a lot of more consequential issues that are decided on by our Congress, but for some reason this pisses me off more than almost anything our government has done, even in the last 6 years. It's such a transparent, unapologetic abuse of the system.
What a mockery.
I have read many public forums over the past few days. Until now, I have not spoken out publicly on the Internet Gambling Prohibition Act, and the new version of this law which was attached to the Ports Security Bill on Friday night, although my views are probably foreseeable.
I do not believe most of the members here quite understand the degree of damage this new legislation will have upon the online gambling industry -- inclduing sports wagering, poker, and affiliated businesses such as MadJacks, et. al.
Before I comment upon this legislation and its detrimental impacts, first I should disclose that I have been involved in the poker business for more than a decade. I was and am the Media Director for the World Series of Poker. I was, until yesterday, the Director of Communications for PokerStars.com -- the second-largest online poker site in the world. I resigned my position based on legal advice. In 2004, I was the Editor of a sports betting magazine published by SportingBet USA. I also served as a guest handicapper here at MadJacks for four years. Please note that the opinions expressed here are not those of the World Series of Poker, PokerStars.com, or anyone else I have been affiliated with. They are my own.
Once this bill is signed into law (possibly as early as Wednesday, Oct. 4), it becomes effective immediately. This is why 888, PartyGaming, and others are suspending US operations, effective immediately. News has already been released that .COM (money) poker games will not be available to US residents. However, .NET (free) games will continue uninterupted.
I expect this to have a ripple afffect across the entire industry. Most of the larger poker sites, and likely offshore sportsbooks as well, will be forced to block wagers from US residents. Otherwise, all operators/employees are subject to arrest and prosecution if they enter US territory. Those here and elsewhere who have stated this new law "only applies to financial transactions" have a narrow and tragically misguided view of the legislation. It essentially makes any employee or agent of the offshore site a criminal under US law -- UNLESS they block transactions from US residents. In short, an executive from an offshore sportsbook could enter the US and not fear arrest, provided that company is not doing business inside the United States.
Hence, the impetous is on the sites themselves to shut down US operations and links to US clients. I expect that most of the larger sportsbooks and poker sites will follow this trend for a few reasons which follow:
1. First, many of the larger, more established compnaies will take a long-term strategic view. They will decide it is better to operate within the law, rather than break it. This is especially true for public companies subject to gaming law and regulations, such as Party, 888, etc.
2. Companies which comply with US law now will be in a better position to re-enter the US market, provided online gamlbing is eventually legalized.
3. While profits will decline in the short-term, these companies will be forced to expand into new markets (Asia, Latin America, and so forth) or perish. Those companies with diversified products (non-US sports on the betting menu, for example) will be in better position to make the adjustment.
4. I expect a number of rogue sites to pop up and cir vent the law. Clearly, some sites will emerge and take the risk of accepting US wagers because of great potential profit. Sadly, I expect some of these rogue sites will be poorly run and mismanaged and scandal will result, which impacts the entire industry, and this makes legaliztion in the US even more difficult.
5. I expect that most of the majors in the sports betting market will continue to operate through the end of football season (the most profitable time of the year) and use the 270-day enforcement discussion period as a grey area which can be exploited to their advantage. However, as arrests and prosecutions continue to make news (Caruthers, s, etc.) some of the majors will be forced to confront the prospect of blocking US traffic. I also expect US officials to put pressure on some governments such as Costa Rica, Antigua, and others to regulate their own sportsbooks, in the manner that the US government is involved in drug policy in counties like Mexico, Columbia, and so forth.
6. I predict that most of the majors will conduct themselves in a professional manner, by refunding deposits and paying (winning) players upon request. More to the point, I am not withdrawing my money from any poker or sports betting account at this time. However, those sites which openly violate US law will risk eventually being targeted in international court. I admit to having less knowledge on this issue than any other. But I do not fear that well-established sportsbooks will run away with money. I can say with absolute certainty that the big poker sites will act in good faith. I think I know this industry well enough to express this confidence.
As to the impacts on poker and sportsbetting, this new law is going to be DEVASTATING. Especially for poker.
Consider that:
A. If poker sites cannot accept deposits from US players, that will kill 70-80 percent of the overall market. The question becomes -- is there eanough of a remaining market and enough contributing players in smaller markets to sustain operations and expansion? Perhaps. But it will take years, if not a decade to return to what has been the golden age of poker.
B. Online poker sites and sportsbooks will no longer be able to advertise (.COM-related services) inside the US. Media outlets will simply refuse to accept the ads. This includes print, television, and radio. Consider the implications. Thousands of new players were signing up daily at various sites. All of that vanishes. Sports gambling is less-relaint on advertising. However, the loss of the US market will force unforeseen changes in how these businesses are run, esepcially those companies that have multiple-gamling related products, such as BoDog, Paradise, etc.
C. Online betting sites will likely not be able to post banner ads and links to gaming sites, especially those based inside the US. "Aiding and abetting" laws could result in arest and prosecution for those who provide links to US residents. Poker magazines, online betting forums, and even MadJacks could suffer. I remain uncertain as to how severe this impact will be, especially at MadJacks. But for the hundreds of poker sites/sports sties and blogs out there that are dependent upon online poker and sportsbook advertising, many will go out of business. Once again, this might not seem a big issue to everyone, but these are the pioneers who are bringing in new poker players and sports bettors and when they dry up, the market skrinks and everyone is adversely affected.
D. Many sites use what are called affiliates. Persons who are affiliates and live inside the US will now be subject to arrest and prosecution, particualrly those who do not block financial transactions from the US.
E. The celebrity poker culture around star poker players will diminish. One poker site is heavily branded to many big names. Now, these players will no longer be able to promote their sites inside the US. Hence, their value and stature diminishes.
F. Big events like the World Series of Poker, which attract meany players and great inteerst from online poker sites, could decline in size for the first time in history. I am most sensitive to commenting upon this event because I still have a longstanding association with the WSOP. However, anyone who looks at the situation must conclude that the WSOP and major poker tournaments will be hurt by this new law.
G. Online gaming sponsorships of various products and services will decline. For instance, Golden Palace ads in boxing arenas, NBA stadiums, and on halftime shows will diminish, if not end completely. PartyPoker ads that are seen regularly on TV, on all stations, will fade away. Millions in advertising revenue will be lost by media companies (which begs the question (why were they not fighting this legislation?)
Keep in mind that these points are off the top of my head. I do not pretend to have a legal background. They are simply personal points of view and speculation as to the impacts of this new law.
Finally, there were some here and elsewhere who said not to worry, that the law would never pass, and so forth. Now, we see what happens when we remain complacent and passive. Aside from this being an outrageous violation of personal freedoms and privacy in this country, I view this issue as largely symbolic of the decline of civil liberties in recent years, and an eerie warning of what is to come. It brings to mind a bumper sticker I saw recently, "If you aren't outraged, you aren't paying attention."
Nolan Dalla
Las Vegas, NV
i pulled out a lot of my money on pinnacle sportsbook.
i am preparing for the worst and will come back if there is some uncertainity put to rest.
R.I.P:
Spurminator's Faith in the U.S. Government
(Oct. 4, 1979 - Sept. 30, 2006)
And they'll use a situation they have created as proof of how right they were.
Unfortunately it's not the first time a government does it.
Maybe I'm just not understanding this right. Can someone explain it to me;
What exactly is the government's justification for this proposed Internet gambling ban. How exactly do they distinguish Internet Gambling to like Casino gambling or even those horse race gamblings at the track?
1. Money laundering. Even if .00001% does it, everyone gets the prohibition.
2. taxing reasons if they want to regulate it later.
those are my only 2 plausible reasons.
What about FTP?
Well, they stuck this legislation inside a port security bill and the country hasn't so much as blinked. Why? Because even though Tens of millions of Americans gamble online, no one is going to stand up for that because of the stigma gambling carries.
So, in short, they don't need justification, because no one is going to challenge them on it. It's blatant bull , but if no one calls you on it, who cares?
They're heavily American based, and I'd assume eventually they'd HAVE to cut off American clients because of how home grown that company is.
This is the email I got from them today.
Apparently they're going to use the window to its fullest, but at this piont I expect them to follow suit.o Manuel,
Thank you for your e-mail expressing concerns about the bill which
passed in the US Congress on September 29th as an attachment to a Port
Security conference report.
Until we fully understand the bill?s ramifications, we cannot comment on
how this bill might ultimately impact the ease with which our customers
will be able to transfer funds to and from Full Tilt Poker. However, you
should note that there is a 270-day period during which any new banking
regulations will get enacted. We do not expect any impact to your
playing experience before that time.
Please also note that the bill does not criminalize individuals who play
poker from their computers. Instead, the bill will eventually attempt to
prevent the transfer of funds to illegal gaming businesses. As poker is
a game of skill, we do not assume that it will be affected by this new
bill.
Full Tilt Poker is legally licensed and regulated to offer its services
to anyone around the world. Because of this, we find it impractical to
make definitive legal judgments as to the laws governing poker from
nation to nation or state to state. It is the responsibility of each
customer to determine which laws may be applicable in the location they
are playing from.
We are always here to answer your questions and we thank you for playing
at Full Tilt Poker.
Regards,
Edward
Full Tilt Poker Support
This a rundown of the sites and what they are doing right now
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...gonew=1#UNREAD
Pacific and Party have been the only ones to come out and say they are closing down to Americans. Actually, I think the Cryptologic network has done so as well, but that was a mostly European network.
Almost every other major site has come out with a letter like Full Tilt has, and some like TruePoker or WPEX have flat out said they are staying in business. Neteller has a new set of terms of service up today that you have to accept, but I couldn't tell you what is different. But they will likely still do the same until the government comes out and says exactly what they are stopping.
This is pretty big:
BC-Internet Gambling-Banks,0453
Banking group sees protections in Internet gambling bill
With BC-Britain-Internet Gambling
By GREG EDWARDS Ž
Dow Jones Newswires Ž
ST. LOUIS (Dow Jones/AP) — The Internet gambling legislation passed late last week by the U.S. Congress, which led to a major sell-off of Britain-based online gambling stocks Monday, remains a concern to the U.S. banking industry but isn’t as burdensome as feared.
“We got some language in the bill that looks like it protects the financial services industry,” said Steve Verdier, director of congressional relations for the Independent Community Bankers of America, which represents almost 5,000 banks in the United States. “It could have been a lot worse.”
The legislation is designed to prohibit U.S. banks and credit card companies from processing payments for illegal online gambling. Financial services companies and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce had expressed concerns about the compliance burdens that would be imposed, such as tracking and blocking potentially millions of transactions.
Under the legislation as passed, “If you are acting as a normal bank, and you’re not in some sort of conspiracy with a betting house, then you are not going to be held liable,” Verdier said.
In addition, the legislation will be guided and enforced by regulations written by the Federal Reserve and the U.S. Treasury Department.
“If they find that the banks just don’t have the technology to track and block these transactions, then we don’t have to,” Verdier said. “The Fed and Treasury are not supposed to ask us to do the impossible.”
Still, Verdier said, “we will have to see how those regulations get written.”
The legislation, attached to an unrelated port security bill, was approved by the U.S. House of Representatives Friday and by the U.S. Senate early Saturday. It is expected to be signed into law by President Bush.
Shares in Britain-based betting companies, such as PartyGaming PLC, 888 Holdings PLC and Sportingbet PLC, plunged Monday. The companies said they would suspend business from the United States if the legislation is enacted.
The U.S. Justice Department has been bringing fraud charges against online gambling companies and their executives.
For example, BetOnSports PLC and its former chief executive, David Carruthers, were indicted in June in federal court in St. Louis, and the company closed its U.S. operations Aug. 12.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/BUSINESS/10/...eut/index.html
With these stock prices dropping so much, what's to stop one of these companies from just folding up and keeping everyones money?LONDON, England (Reuters) -- Online gaming firms faced their biggest-ever crisis on Monday after U.S. Congress unexpectedly passed legislation to ban online gaming there, threatening jobs and hitting stocks by as much as 70 percent.
Britain's PartyGaming Plc, operator of leading online poker site PartyPoker.com, and rivals Sportingbet and 888 Plc said they would likely pull out of the United States and warned on future profits.
PartyGaming's shares fell 59 percent by 0725 GMT, while Sportingbet lost 64 percent, 888 was down 45 percent and gaming software provider Playtech fell 55 percent. Austria's bwin.com Interactive Entertainment fell as much as 22 percent in the first few minutes of trading.
U.S. Congress unexpectedly approved a bill early on Saturday that would make it illegal for banks and credit-card companies to make payments to online gambling sites.
The House of Representatives and Senate approved the measure and sent it to President George W. Bush to sign into law. Most analysts think his approval is certain.
"We believe that this will have a very material impact on the long-term prospects of online gambling, and in particular poker," said analyst Julian Easthope at UBS. "This will lead to a rapid decline in the use of online poker sites."
PartyGaming generates about 78 percent of its revenue from the United States, while Sportingbet gets about 62 percent there.
PartyGaming said in a statement: "If the president signs the act into law, the company will suspend all real money gaming business with U.S. residents, and such suspension will continue indefinitely.
"Any such suspension would also result in the group's financial performance falling significantly short of consensus forecasts for 2006 and 2007," it added.
PartyGaming's smaller rival Sportingbet said the likely ban would hit trading, and said it had scrapped a planned merger with World Gaming as a result of the passing of the legislation.
888 Plc said the move would hit its results, but stressed it remained a profitable and viable business.
Any ban would also hit payment-processors like Neteller Plc and Optimal Group's FireOne subsidiary.
Neteller Plc said the legislation would have a "material adverse effect" on its U.S.-facing business.
Copyright 2006 Reuters. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
If banks aren't held to the fire on these regulations, then I don't see how transactions to neteller will be illegal. If neteller still works to fund your account, I guarntee you online poker isn't dead. Many of the major sites may pull out of the American market, but I'm sure there will be companies run by people who don't give a if they can come back to America or not, and they'll continue to do business here.
Its not like these CEOs are in any danger to be extradited.
Why on earth would they do that? The money they have from everyone is far smaller than the money they'd make if they just stayed in business. The Stock prices don't mean that much, they're most indicative of how investors feel as to the actual strength of the company.
http://about.neteller.com/neteller/u...l2oct067am.pdf
Press release
2 October 2006
US CONGRESS PASSES SAFE PORT ACT
NETELLER Plc (LSE:NLR), a leading online money transfer service provider, notes the recent action early on Saturday 30 September by US Congress to pass HR 4954, the Safe Port Act (the “Act”) which includes certain provisions to prohibit unlawful internet gambling through the restriction of payments to such sites.
The Act further states that there will be a period of up to 270 days beginning on the date of the enactment for a board including the US Federal Reserve and the US Attorney General to prescribe regulations requiring each designated payment system and all participants therein to identify and block or otherwise prevent or prohibit restricted transactions.
The Company, in conjunction with its advisers, is considering the potential impact of the Act at this time. The Board believes that the Act may have a material adverse effect on NETELLER’s US facing business. Once the Company has more information about what the regulations will stipulate, it will have a clearer view of which companies are affected, how those companies will be expected to comply, and any possible resulting impact on the Company. In the meantime, the Company will continue to monitor the progress of this legislation and to energetically plan and adapt NETELLER’s business to minimise any potential adverse impact. The Company will remain focused on developing its business in line with its stated strategic objectives including geographical and product diversification.
The Company’s next trading update for the third quarter will be issued towards the end of October 2006. In the meantime, the Company will endeavour to keep shareholders informed of any material developments.
Enquiries:
NETELLER Plc
Andrew Gilchrist, Vice President - Communications +44 (0) 1293 555 726
Citigate Dewe Rogerson +44 (0) 207 638 9571
Sarah Gestetner/Seb Hoyle/George Cazenove
They had to say something, they took a huge shot today in regards to their stock prices falling.
I hate Bill Frist.
Not to be an ass but what do you expect? I mean really... how long was this free money going to go on? For every winner there is 10s to 100s losing their asses. Leave it to the US government to dictate again laws that control behavior amongst their citizens...
When is the free of our society supposed to come into play? , I have no idea.
So is Party Poker stopping US players now?
Because I thought that the rules wouldn't be put into effect until 270 days after Bush signs the bill.
OK, so I just talked to my boss who returned home after being in DC all last week lobbying against this. And he says that nothing will change. I am an independent contractor and I sell all rights to my work to him, so my job is safe, at least for now. He does not work for a casino at all and the company is quite diversified and is not going under, though they will take a hit.
So for the short-term, I am good. But I am not holding my breath either. But I think I will have a beer with my dinner tonight
Party isn't stopping right now, but when Bush signs it. He's supposed to sign it sometime in the next 2 weeks.
From the point he signs it, the law goes into effect, but the regulations for the banks will take UP TO 270 days to figure out. Those regulations don't look to be too severe according to people in the banking industry.
So basicaly, heres the breakdown on everything I can gather so far:
When the law is signed, it makes providing these services to Americans illegal. So executives of these companies will be in danger of American prosecution. Now, this obviously is scaring some companies, namely 888 (pacific poker) and Party. But other companies are playing a wait and see game to see exactly how things play out before they just give up.
Personally, if i was running one of those companies I don't think I'd let the US government tell me what to do. If they come here, they'd be subject to being arrested but really America isn't that nice. Being rich in Aruba trumps a damn trip to New York City in my eyes, but whatever.
Once he signs it, the federal reserve will come up with banking regulations within 270 days. This will specify what the banks have to do to comply with the law. Right now, it looks really good on this front, but I'm not sure how good. If they don't block transactions to Neteller then funding and cashing out will not be that big of a hurdle at all if Neteller goes on with business as usual. This is at least decently likely, but Neteller in the end may block American transactions if they feel the pressure of their shareholders.
IF that happens, I'm sure another ewallet will move into the forefront. Someone will step up and fill the void because the market is just too damn big to leave it alone.
I'm fairly confident that even aftere these regulations are in place, funding a poker account will not be that hard.
But what is worriesome, is what sites will be around after this all shakes out. If all the major sites cut out Americans, all that may be left will be smaller less secure sites. I'm not looking forward to having my bankroll reside on sites that are less than trustworthy and aren't monitored by foreign stock exchanges. Right now the sites out there are actually regulated in many respects just not by the American government. Its a big industry for the EU and they take care of it.
There's also other things that could happen with the WTO or with an exception for poker because it is a game of skill rather than a game of chance. I don't think these have a huge chance for success, but they're out there.
Basicaly, Party slit its own wrists today. Stars or Full Tilt will move into the slot they held if either stays, but how long either stays is really up in the air right now. If you have money on these sites its probably safe.
Awesome news dude!OK, so I just talked to my boss who returned home after being in DC all last week lobbying against this. And he says that nothing will change. I am an independent contractor and I sell all rights to my work to him, so my job is safe, at least for now. He does not work for a casino at all and the company is quite diversified and is not going under, though they will take a hit.
So for the short-term, I am good. But I am not holding my breath either. But I think I will have a beer with my dinner tonight
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