Thank You, Joch.
Yonivore, I believe if you speak with your clergy about this topic he will tell you that you will never have to risk your immortal soul in order to save your family, you will merely have to have faith in Jesus Christ. Doing otherwise is not living in a proper Christian way.
You either have faith, or you don't, but you can't have faith and be willing to risk your immortal soul at the same time.
That "blessed are the peacemakers" stuff is so pre-9/11
Yeah, right and wrong changed that day. [/sarcasm]
Okay, to lose to opponent.
Must not lose to fear!
Sincerely,
Mr. Miyagi
Given the option of not waterboarding a terrorist I believed had information that would save hundreds, thousands, or even millions of INNOCENT lives and not waterboarding a terrorist because it's something Jesus wouldn't do, I'd confess my weakness, abandon my faith, and pray for forgiveness.
Deal with it.
Spend some time in Romans Manny. Paul talks about the thorn in his side and how God does not expect us to be perfect and recognizes we will fall, doing things we do not want to do and not doing the things we know are right. He goes on to talk about God's unconditional love, forgiveness and grace.
I agree, if I were to do as Jesus did, I wouldn't waterboard. But, I only aspire to be perfect in his sight with the knowledge it is unattainable.
Just being real. I know that if I thought I could gain information that would save my children in exchange for causing a terrorist a few minutes of discomfort, I'd cause the discomfort.
I heard this analogy....
Sacrificing the coalition troops in Iraq to save lives....isn't this the same as stem cell research and saving lives... I don't see the difference, innocent life for future life....We torture people to possibly save lives as well.
Christianity doens't say you can use the knowledge that you're not perfect to knowingly do something that goes against what Christ wants.
Thats rich man. You don't get cart blanche. Your faith in Christ isn't as deep as your faith in torture? That speaks volumes my friend.
Deal with it? It's your faith - or lack there of rather - I'm not the one who has to deal with it.
Yoni thinks 24 is a do entary.
I don't know if Maher Arar has been brought up here, but his story makes pretty clear what level of detainee treatment our government approves.
http://www.maherarar.ca/
That's not what I said. Knowing that I'm not perfect, I believe that I would be -- if faced with the dilemma -- unable to forgoe these harsh techniques if it meant saving my family's life. That's not ignoring biblical principal, that's recognizing a weakness and a reality.Christianity doens't say you can use the knowledge that you're not perfect to knowingly do something that goes against what Christ wants.
Well, first, I've never agreed any of these techniques were torture. So, why don't you first explain in what way the worst of the techniques, waterboarding, is torture.
Then, I never said I had carte blanche. I recognize that what I might be willing to do could go against scripture. But, I'm not convinced it is. Plus, are you suggesting you don't violate Christian principles on a daily basis?
I'm comfortable with my faith and my failures and my place in God's kingdom. I will deal with it.
So, considering I don't think any of the techniques mentioned cons ute torture (maybe frat hazing techniques) and considering the application of those techniques -- particularly waterboarding -- have produced valuable intelligence that ended up saving lives, I'm okay with it and I refuse to let you attack my faith because I condone the use of these harmless techniques.
So, yeah, deal with it.
Ask yourself this Manny, why did Jay Rockefeller vote in favor of the Military Commissions Act? A leading critic of the Bush administration, probable leaker of sensitive intelligence information (sits on the Senate Intelligence Committee) and yet, when it comes to the nut-cutting, he votes in favor of the MCA.
I'm guessing it's because he actually knows the stakes involved and, further, he knows the techniques have works and have saved lives.
What about the other 12 Democrats? Why did they vote in favor of the MCA?
I hope you and your ilk are feeling more and more marginalized with the passing of every bill that supports the administration's efforts in the war on terror.
You're on the fringe.
K, then I'm on the fringe. If that makes you feel like a better Christian, then more power to you. You can try to deflect attention from how your views dno't add up by trying to paint me as a fringe thinker.
Actually, in this country I'm not too sure I'd be ashamed to not be part of the mainstream. I actually think for myself, I don't pick a side and blindly follow. So yes, I am on the fringe.
It doesn't make me feel anything but relief that you and your type aren't in control of my government.
Indeed, freedom would be a horrible thing. Your type is obviously doing a bang up job. Bravo.
Arar was deported to Syria, this wasn't a rendition. And, if anything, it was the Canadians that screwed up, all action was taken based on information provided by them.
So you don't have freedom?
Yes, the President is doing a bang up job. Bravo recognized. Thanks.
And 30% of the people in the country agree with you!
Here's a question for you Manny.
If you believe the First Amendment implies a separation of church and state, why would you want to force Christian values on our government's interrogation techniques? Isn't that a violation of the establishment clause?
Why not Islamic values? Wow! That'd be a trip. There'd be a lot of one-armed, tongueless detainees.
I never said I wanted to apply Christian values to anything. I pointed out that supporting torture is inconsitent with Christian values that you say you hold.
The 30 most-informed percent, no doubt.
Obviously.
So why handicap our government from using the most effective, least damaging methods for extracting intelligence information from those we know possess it and through the gain of which lives are saved?
They aren't the most effective methods and they are far from least damaging.
Really, name a method that garners information from 14 out of 14 terrorists. Something that works every time it's tried.
What would be the least damaging method of extracting information?
Because the information is always accurate right?
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