Habeas Corpus, R.I.P. (1215 - 2006)

[valluco]

What changes and how have the affected you personally? Just curious.

This hasn't affected us yet...

But, imagine how easy it would be for someone innocent to get arrested on "su ion" of being a terrorist and being held indefinately and subjected to torture.

I'd say that could affect any of us.

[MannyIsGod]

What changes and how have the affected you personally? Just curious.

I - and everyone else - am now in larger danger of being held against my cons utional rights by my own government. I'd say thats a large effect.

[RandomGuy]

Okay, to lose to opponent.
Must not lose to fear!
Sincerely,
Mr. Miyagi

[turambar85]

I'm so sick of the bleeding heart libs who think these s of the earth terrorists deserve the same protections as American citizens. Tell you what, we'll release them and let them come live with YOU - you can be their mentor and help them assimilate. Maybe you'll even be able to find out why they hate us so much and you can solve the problem - that is if they don't cut your throat first!

That is the epitome of the stupid emotional post that I was talking about seeing from Yonivore, gtown, or X-ray earlier. (Sorry to the two of you that are not in the wrong this time, but youre just so damn similar it kills me.0

Bleeding heart libs....
1st. That is not an insult. The amazing thing is that most people who say this are right-wing Christians. What was Jesus but a "bleeding heart lib"?
I guarantee you that every thing that "dems" do to warrant that "insult" is something that Christ himself would spearhead.

2nd- If youre right and they are acting from pure emotion, so are you. But theyre acting from an emotion of cooperation and respect, youre acting from hatred and ignorance...hmm...

3rd- It is not bleeding heart politics to want to follow the ing cons ution as well as international law. Dear God man, the principles on which this country were founded blatantly disagree with you.

4th- This isn't about them being the same as regular citizens, but the same as regular criminals and murderers. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHERE THE ENEMY COMES FROM, JUST THAT HE IS AN ENEMY!

5th- WE DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT THEY ARE ALL ENEMIES, WE ROUND THEM UP IN DAMN HORDES.

I hate to have to yell, but it has been said so many times that I wonder if you are deaf.

[FromWayDowntown]

At this point wouldn't the issue be whether or not this is cons utional and not what smaller forms of this have been committed by previous administrations?

That's among the great ironies here: to defend this Administration, its supporters are largely left to rely on precedent established during the Clinton Administration, which they decry generally as corrupt and specifically as a non-starter in combating terrorism.

[boutons_]

"precedent established during the Clinton Administration"

Same tactic as that Condi this week defending her sleepwalking as NSA head between Jan and Sep 01, saying Repugs were at least as aggressive as Clinton on terrorism (proveably false), after all the Repugs and the entire right wing had trashed Clinton as essentially pro-terrorist. But for her defense, Clinton's anti-terrorist performance is now some kind of basis of comparison?

GMAFB

[Medvedenko]

This indeed is a sad day...I'm shocked something like this even passed. What the is going on in your country.

[Yonivore]

This indeed is a sad day...I'm shocked something like this even passed. What the is going on in your country.

Just legislating what we've been doing for over 200 years. Since when did we ever give cons utional protections to the foreign enemy combatants?

[Guru of Nothing]

It is becoming so damn Orwelian that it really is scary how quickly and silently and willingly this country is going. And very few seem to notice.

[PixelPusher]

Oh, don't get Yoni started on the "Boiling Frog" analogy. His water his alway ice cold. Of course some people aren't as sensetive to "heat" as others.

[Yonivore]

Oh, don't get Yoni started on the "Boiling Frog" analogy. His water his alway ice cold. Of course some people aren't as sensetive to "heat" as others.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me of a single liberty or freedom they've lost as a result of actions taken by the Bush administration.

[Nbadan]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me of a single liberty or freedom they've lost as a result of actions taken by the Bush administration.

Did he even bother to read the rest of the thread?

[spurster]

What rights have we lost? Here's one list.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/28/opinion/28thu1.html

...

Enemy Combatants: A dangerously broad definition of "illegal enemy combatant" in the bill could subject legal residents of the United States, as well as foreign citizens living in their own countries, to summary arrest and indefinite detention with no hope of appeal. The president could give the power to apply this label to anyone he wanted.

The Geneva Conventions: The bill would repudiate a half-century of international precedent by allowing Mr. Bush to decide on his own what abusive interrogation methods he considered permissible. And his decision could stay secret - there's no requirement that this list be published.

Habeas Corpus: Detainees in U.S. military prisons would lose the basic right to challenge their imprisonment. These cases do not clog the courts, nor coddle terrorists. They simply give wrongly imprisoned people a chance to prove their innocence.

Judicial Review: The courts would have no power to review any aspect of this new system, except verdicts by military tribunals. The bill would limit appeals and bar legal actions based on the Geneva Conventions, directly or indirectly. All Mr. Bush would have to do to lock anyone up forever is to declare him an illegal combatant and not have a trial.

Coerced Evidence: Coerced evidence would be permissible if a judge considered it reliable - already a contradiction in terms - and relevant. Coercion is defined in a way that exempts anything done before the passage of the 2005 Detainee Treatment Act, and anything else Mr. Bush chooses.

Secret Evidence: American standards of justice prohibit evidence and testimony that is kept secret from the defendant, whether the accused is a corporate executive or a mass murderer. But the bill as redrafted by Mr. Cheney seems to weaken protections against such evidence.

Offenses: The definition of torture is unacceptably narrow, a virtual reprise of the deeply cynical memos the administration produced after 9/11. Rape and sexual assault are defined in a retrograde way that covers only forced or coerced activity, and not other forms of nonconsensual sex. The bill would effectively eliminate the idea of rape as torture.

[xrayzebra]

This indeed is a sad day...I'm shocked something like this even passed. What the is going on in your country.

None of your damn business, it is our country and not yours. We will
handled our problems. No American has lost anything in the way of their
freedoms. Regardless of what you read in your papers or on this forum.
This is simple enought to figure out, look at all the critical remarks made
about our government, President, Congress and not one person I am aware
of has had a official call made at their place of employment or home in
regards to those comments.

So be shocked and amazed, but it is our business and no one else.

[Yonivore]

What rights have we lost? Here's one list.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/28/opinion/28thu1.html

...

Enemy Combatants: A dangerously broad definition of "illegal enemy combatant" in the bill could subject legal residents of the United States, as well as foreign citizens living in their own countries, to summary arrest and indefinite detention with no hope of appeal. The president could give the power to apply this label to anyone he wanted.

The Geneva Conventions: The bill would repudiate a half-century of international precedent by allowing Mr. Bush to decide on his own what abusive interrogation methods he considered permissible. And his decision could stay secret - there's no requirement that this list be published.

Habeas Corpus: Detainees in U.S. military prisons would lose the basic right to challenge their imprisonment. These cases do not clog the courts, nor coddle terrorists. They simply give wrongly imprisoned people a chance to prove their innocence.

Judicial Review: The courts would have no power to review any aspect of this new system, except verdicts by military tribunals. The bill would limit appeals and bar legal actions based on the Geneva Conventions, directly or indirectly. All Mr. Bush would have to do to lock anyone up forever is to declare him an illegal combatant and not have a trial.

Coerced Evidence: Coerced evidence would be permissible if a judge considered it reliable - already a contradiction in terms - and relevant. Coercion is defined in a way that exempts anything done before the passage of the 2005 Detainee Treatment Act, and anything else Mr. Bush chooses.

Secret Evidence: American standards of justice prohibit evidence and testimony that is kept secret from the defendant, whether the accused is a corporate executive or a mass murderer. But the bill as redrafted by Mr. Cheney seems to weaken protections against such evidence.

Offenses: The definition of torture is unacceptably narrow, a virtual reprise of the deeply cynical memos the administration produced after 9/11. Rape and sexual assault are defined in a retrograde way that covers only forced or coerced activity, and not other forms of nonconsensual sex. The bill would effectively eliminate the idea of rape as torture.

Unless you're an enemy combatant, who has more rights under our cons ution than ever before allowed, I don't see a one that YOU'VE lost.

[Drachen]

The shame of America is dumb s like you who thinks it's a bad idea to treat s like s .

It's pretty simple, don't try and blow up Americans with a bomb strapped to your chest, and the government probably won't be ing with you.

Gotta love that word!

[spurster]

Unless you're an enemy combatant, who has more rights under our cons ution than ever before allowed, I don't see a one that YOU'VE lost.

The government can label any non-US citizen as an enemy combatant. If you follow the news any, there have been several cases of mislabeling.

How do you know if I'm a US citizen or not?

Few of the rights in the Cons ution require citizenship. If the government can take them away from a specific group, then what's to stop the government from taking them away from the rest of us.

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

[RandomGuy]

This indeed is a sad day...I'm shocked something like this even passed. What the is going on in your country.

The right wing has finally turned its back on the ideals our country has stood for. That is what is happening.

[RandomGuy]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me of a single liberty or freedom they've lost as a result of actions taken by the Bush administration.

Freedom from torture, freedom to have a fair trial...

[RandomGuy]

The shame of America is dumb s like you who thinks it's a bad idea to treat s like s .

It's pretty simple, don't try and blow up Americans with a bomb strapped to your chest, and the government probably won't be ing with you.

The shame of america is cowards like you who turn your back on our common principles at the first sign of danger.

I am deeply ashamed that you are an American. We are better than that.

[gtownspur]

The right wing has finally turned its back on the ideals our country has stood for. That is what is happening.

Please tell me and enlighten me of the passage in the cons ution that expresses that we "Should grant cons uitional priveleges to foreign combatants."

Please Enlighten me of a phrase that even gives credence to such Idea before you go on and spout off non sensical rhetoric.

[gtownspur]

The shame of america is cowards like you who turn your back on our common principles at the first sign of danger.

I am deeply ashamed that you are an American. We are better than that.

We sure are. In WW11 we extradited nazi criminals and brought them over here to give them cons utional priveleges, i think that trial was called Nurem......oh that's right.

[xrayzebra]

The government can label any non-US citizen as an enemy combatant. If you follow the news any, there have been several cases of mislabeling.

How do you know if I'm a US citizen or not?

Few of the rights in the Cons ution require citizenship. If the government can take them away from a specific group, then what's to stop the government from taking them away from the rest of us.

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Gee, now the cons ution is extended to all that fight against us or any
we may capture on the battlefield. Wonder how they handled that
during previous wars. Oh, that's right, I forgot we aren't at war and
they have human rights. Horse Hockey!

And by the way who cares if you are citizen or not. If you are, you haven't
lost anything. If your aren't.....well don't mess with Texas or the US of A.
Okay!

[01Snake]

Gotta love the word "torture" being thrown around. Some of you make it sound as if we are crushing hands in vises, chopping of limbs, burning, maiming, etc. Get a ing grip. Were our captured soilders treated fairly after being captured? no! They were mutilated, decapitated or drug behind vehicles. Then, after all is said and done, a video is distributed showing what they did. When are you going to get it? These people don't give a about anything but killing us. They are probably sitting back and laughing at us waiting for us to implode from within. We need to stop being pussies and drop the ing hammer down on this plague to society. We seem to care more about our enemy and their rights than we do about our own.

I wish both parties would cut the he said she said crap and get this done. Yes, we are gonna piss some people off but god damn I'm so tired of all of this terrorist BS.

Sorry...had to rant.

[Yonivore]

The government can label any non-US citizen as an enemy combatant.

Sounds fair. So, where, again, are U.S. Citizens losing their cons utional rights?

If you follow the news any, there have been several cases of mislabeling.

Name them. Oh, and if you follow the news, you'll know that more than a dozen former detainees, released because of bleeding heart liberals, have ended up back on the battlefield shooting at our soldiers.

How do you know if I'm a US citizen or not?

If I find you on the battlegrounds of Afghanistan or Iraq or some other place, I'm not going to be too worried about your nationality. I figure the burdens on you to prove your citizenship.

Few of the rights in the Cons ution require citizenship. If the government can take them away from a specific group, then what's to stop the government from taking them away from the rest of us.

Uh, the Cons ution. Where does it say the cons ution applies to non-citizens?

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Sounds like you're talking about the Democratic approach to Islamofascists to me. They probably won't speak out until Mohammed is sawing off their head...and then, it'll be too late, there'll be no one left to speak out for you.