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stretch, dude gave young props - "stats weren't there, but found a way to win on a bad team." i don't think he's even trying to discredit VY in the slightest, more playing devil's advocate.
I know they are, that what I said. Among is the key word. It should be a discussion that involves guys who played with different rules, in a different era, not a coronation of recent greatness.
I know, I know, still filled with the hatred for VY. I mean, after all, he's no Jon Kitna. Not even in the same league...
stretch, dude gave young props - "stats weren't there, but found a way to win on a bad team." i don't think he's even trying to discredit VY in the slightest, more playing devil's advocate.
Merrill Hoge just said that whenever he gets a GM job, he's hiring JGW as his head of scouting.
With the 1st pick in the draft, the Pittsburgh Steelers select, Javorskie Lane.
Jones Drew got screwed.
Youngs numbers are terrible. A 66.7 (ranks 30th) QB rating does not equal rookie player of the year. 51.5% (ranks 32nd) completion ratio is not a stat that garners a player of the year award. 13 INT's to 12 TD's (3.6 INT ratio ranks 22nd) does not equate to a post season award. 2200 passing yards (ranks 26th) does not give him the award.
The ONLY positive stat he has to his credit is surpassing 500 rushing !!! Whoopy!!!!!
Young is, too often IMO, given credit for 8 wins. Cough BULL Cough....
Vince made numerous outstanding plays during the year. Many of those plays ended up being THE deciding play of the game. But Young is not THE reason they won 8 games.
Wins and losses is not a individual stat. It's a team stat. While the QB is a larger portion of 'it' compared to other position players, and often receives the lions share of the criticism, they do also deserve the majority of the praise. But if you really look at the wins, there were many other factors involved nearly every single time that probably outshined what VY did.
I honestly HATE agreeing with johngateswhiteley (no offense man!!) as he's WAY to homerish with his USC and Leinart love, and typically comes across as nothing more than an unobjective hater. But he's right. Pacman and Bironas were IMO more responsible for the wins than Young. Norm Chow, and his football IQ, the Specail Team pay, Travis Henry, and yes, the Defense were just as responsible for the 8 wins as Young was.
Lets look at those 8 wins. (quotes come from game recaps on ESPN)
Week 6
25-22 @ Washington
VY Stats:
passing 13/25 162yds 1 TD 0 INT 52.0 completion% 6.44 YardsPerAttempt 85.6 QB rating
rushing 7 carries 9yds
Key stats of the game:
Henry: 32 carries 178 yards
+2 turnover ratio
Plays of the game:
A timely penalty helps them take the lead."Play: Washington's A. Montgomery is called for a face mask penalty.
The ans receive a gift while trailing 14-13 in the 3rd quarter. Montgomery's face mask against V. Young sets up 1st-and-goal from the 2 yard line, rather than 3rd-and-goal from the 3. The ans eventually push the ball in to take a 20-14 lead."
special teams..."Casey Cramer then blocked a punt, and the ball rolled out of the end zone for a safety that made the score 22-14."
No VY, handed it off 5 times."The Redskins rallied early in the fourth period with a touchdown set up by a 52-yard pass to Brandon Lloyd -- only the eighth catch of the season for an offseason acquisition who had been a major disappointment. Clinton Portis scored on a 4-yard run, and Mark Brunell hit Santana Moss for the 2-point conversion to tie the score with 10:57 remaining.
The ans weren't rattled. The winning points came after a short punt by Derrick Frost was returned 14 yards by Adam "Pacman" Jones to the Redskins 43. Five consecutive running plays moved the ball in position for Bironas' 30-yarder."
Defense secures it!"Tennessee intercepts M. Brunell's pass with 1 minute left.
The ans thwart any Redskins comeback hopes by picking Brunell's pass at midfield with just over a minute left. The stop preserves the 25-22 victory."
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Week 8
28-22 vs Houston
VY Stats:
passing 7/15 87yds 1 TD 0 INT 46.7 completion% 5.80 YardsPerAttempt 85.6 QB rating
rushing 4 carries 44yds
Key stats of the game:
+5 turnover ratio
"Houston outgained the ans 427 yards to just 197 yards in total offense."Alot of timely penalties kept them alive throughout the season."Play: Houston's Bryan Pittman is flagged for pass interference, an 18 yard penalty.
With 3 mintues to play in the first quarter and the game tied at 0-0, the ans get a free 1st down on their own 29 yard line, keeping the drive alive."
Big play +7"Play: Vince Young scrambles 20 yards for a touchdown.
With the game knotted up at 0-0 with 10 minutes left in the 2nd quarter, Young tucks the ball on 3rd-and-7 from 20 yards out and scrambles for a TD to give the ans a 7-0 lead."
Defense scores!"Play: Tony Brown recovers a David Carr fumble, returning it for a touchdown."
Special teams closes this one!"Play: Adam "Pacman" Jones returns a punt 53 yards for a touchdown.
The ans force a Houston punt with 11 minutes left while leading 21-10, and Jones puts the game out of reach as he scoots 53 yards for a TD."
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Week 11
31-13 @ Philly
VY Stats:
passing 8/22 101yds 1 TD 0 INT 36.4 completion% 4.59 YardsPerAttempt 66.7 QB rating
rushing 6 carries 49yds 1TD
Key stats of the game:
Henry: 18 carries 143 yards 1 TD
+2 turn over ratio
Travis Henry runs for a 70 yard TD.Second play of the second qtr, McNabb is injured, ending his season
Again, defense having a big role in the an wins."Play: Stephen Tulloch intercepts Donovan McNabb's pass.
On a 3rd-and-goal from the 1 yard line with the Eagles trailing 7-0 in the 1st, Tulloch picks off McNabb's pass to L.J. Smith in the endzone for a touchback. Instead of the Eagles tying the game early, the ans gain possession with a 7 point lead."
Special teams keep producing."Play: Pacman Jones returns Dirk Johnson's punt for a 90 yard TD.
With the ans holding an unlikely 17-6 lead in the 3rd quarter, Jones takes a punt back for a long TD to push the lead to 24-6, giving the ans a 3 score lead."
VY was fortunate. Both should have been TD's which would have made this a completely different game."The Eagles had chances for big plays on defense, but Brian Dawkins and Lito Sheppard each dropped interceptions that could've been returned for TDs."
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Week 12
24-21 vs Giants
VY Stats:
passing 24/35 249 yds 2 TD 0 INT 68.6 completion% 7.11 YardsPerAttempt 107.9 QB rating (His best game by far at this point)
rushing 10 carries 69 yds 1 TD
Key stats of the game:
+0 turn over ratio
VY showed up in the 2nd half. He looked like a savy veteran. Composed, and making plays."Young rallies ans from 21-point deficit to stun Giants"
"After giving up 21 points in the first half, the ans shored up their defense and found a hero as Vince Young led his team to 24 second-half points. Young was 15-of-22 in the second half with no interceptions and caught the run-conscious Giants defense flat-footed. Using the shotgun formation that he was so familiar with at Texas almost exclusively in the second half, Young scored on all four of Tennessee's final possessions. The Giants didn't help their cause with Eli Manning throwing two interceptions in the second half."
"The ans cornerback intercepted two passes and had a 23-yard punt return that revived his teammates in the fourth quarter. "
But, as the quote states, alot of other factors were in play. First, it was Eli. He again, melted in the second half of a game. The defense was much improved and made a difference. Fisher must have given one of a hlaf time speech, because the entire team pulled a 180, They were a different team in the 2nd.
--------------------------------
Week 13
20-17 vs Colts
VY Stats:
passing 15/25 163 yds 2 TD 2 INT 60.0 completion% 6.52 YardsPerAttempt 72.6 QB rating
rushing 9 carries 78 yds 0 TD
Key stats of the game:
+0 turn over ratio
Henry: 20 carries 93 yards 0 TD
[quote]Young, who drove the ans 95 yards in 11 plays, put them ahead 17-14 with a 9-yard pass to Brandon Jones in the fourth quarter.
quote]
Without doubt, VY's best drive of his young career.
Big break. If that was ruled a TD, the game would not have gone in the win collumn for the ans.Play: Ben Utecht is called for offensive pass interference, a 10 yard penalty.
Two yards from the end zone, the Colts have less than four minutes to play and trail 17-14 when Utecht shoots the team in the foot with a pass interference penalty. The penalty moves the offense back out to the 12 yard line and the Colts will end up settling for a field goal. This makes the difference: the ans will win by three.
HUGE play by the kicker. Clutch. VY got them in position, but he didn't really do any favors for the kicker making him have to go for 60.Play: Rob Bironas hits a 60-yard game winning field goal.
With just 12 seconds to play, Rob Bironas hits a 60 yard, game winning field goal for the ans. The kick ties for the 4th-longest field goal in NFL history.
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Week 14
26-20 @ Houston
VY Stats:
passing 19/29 218 yds 0 TD 1 INT 65.5 completion% 7.52 YardsPerAttempt 73.6 QB rating
rushing 7 carries 86 yds 1 TD
Key stats of the game:
-2 turn over ratio
Play of the game ... maybe play of the year for the entire NFL.Play: Vince Young scrambles for a 39-yard touchdown.
The ans are facing a 3rd-and-14 in overtime from 39 yards out when Young wins the game, scrambling up the middle for a touchdown. Instead of a possible 57-yard field goal attempt, the ans win their fourth straight game.
He made it look so easy.
It's Houston.The Texans could not sustain drives -- they were 2-for-11 on third down (18 percent). Of Houston's 12 possessions, only four lasted more than five plays. Houston must find a way to keep its defense off the field longer.
Big emotional game though for VY in Houston
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Week 15
24-17 vs Jax
VY Stats:
passing 8/15 85 yds 0 TD INT 53.3 completion% 5.67 YardsPerAttempt 70.1 QB rating
rushing 4 carries 4 yds 0 TD
Key stats of the game:
+4 turn over ratio
Four turnovers proved to be just too costly for Jacksonville. With the Jaguars outgaining the ans in every offensive category, three interceptions thrown by David Garrard (above), two of which were returned for touchdowns, plus a Jaguars fumble that was returned 92 yards for a touchdown were the difference.On Sunday, Young and the offense couldn't move the ball against the Jaguars. So the ans' defense beat up David Garrard and returned turnovers 83, 92 and 61 yards for touchdowns and beat Jacksonville 24-17 for their fifth straight victory.
Adam "Pacman" Jones returned an interception 83 yards for a touchdown in the first quarter for a 7-0 lead. Then the ans broke open a 10-10 game in the third quarter despite the Jaguars running 32 consecutive offensive plays -- not counting a penalty that nullified a 33rd.
Finnegan picked up Garrard's fumble and returned it for the go-ahead TD with 4:51 left in the third period. Six plays later, safety Chris Hope picked off a pass and ran 61 yards up the left sideline for a 24-10 lead.
Credit a franchise-record three defensive TDs and a team-record 370 yards of returns.Obviously VY had NOTHING to do with this victory.The ans had the ball for only 96 seconds in the third quarter and 15:38 overall and finished with a season-low 98 yards of offense.
But it was Tennessee's defense, statistically the worst in the league allowing 364.4 yards per game, that made the biggest plays. The weary ans even kept the Jaguars out of the end zone despite Jacksonville having first-and-goal at the Tennessee 6 midway through the fourth quarter.
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Week 16
30-29 # Buffalo
VY Stats:
passing 13/20 183 yds 2 TD 0 INT 65.0 completion% 9.15 YardsPerAttempt 127.7 QB rating
rushing 8 carries 61 yds 1 TD
Key stats of the game:
+2 turn over ratio
Henry 25 carries 135 yards
Young threw two touchdown passes and rushed for another to engineer his fourth comeback in the fourth quarter or overtime. This time, he helped Tennessee overcome a 29-20 deficit in the final 12 minutes. After hitting Brandon Jones for a 29-yard touchdown pass, Young engineered a 14-play, 75-yard drive, which Rob Bironas capped with a 30-yard field goal with 2:10 left.
Young's most electrifying play came at the end of the first half, when he scored on a 36-yard keeper on a fourth-and-2.Play: Vince Young scrambles 36 yards for a touchdown.
Trailing 16-13 with 14 seconds to play in the 1st half, Young pulls the ball down on 4th-and-2 from 36 yards out and weaves his way to the end zone. The touchdown run gives the ans a 20-16 lead.VY had a great game. He had the big highlight play, but when it came down to it, the victory was secured by the defense, and poor decision making on behalf of the BillsPlay: J.P. Losman is intercepted by Ronaldo Hill with 57 seconds to play.
The Bills trail 30-29 with a minute to play when they decide to go for it on 4th-and-5 instead of attempting a 45-yard field goal that would put them up by 2. Losman is unable to find an open receiver and tosses up a Hail Mary, which Hill intercepts.
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VY was personaly responsible for 2 maybe 3 wins. The defense and specail teams .... Pacman ... were IMO responsible for just as many wins. Notice how in most of the wins, The ans have a good advantage in the +/_ category.
I find it very hard to give the award to VY when his individual stats ....and this is an individual award....were so poor.
He is basically the Carmello Anthony of the NFL. Bush is Lebron. Leinart might be Wade. ESPN and other media outlets want to talk about VY and Bush. And to his credit, VY has had a few superstar plays for them to play over and over. But just because there is hype, does not mean he deserves it all.
While the an defense was piss poor, and people want to assume they didn't help VY look good, they did rank # 5 in the +/- stat. That alone allowed the offense ... VY... to secure victories.
Give VY all the love you want. Crown his ass already. But the fact is that he was not all that special. the defense, special teams and whistles were just as important when adding up the total number of team victories.
VY has the intangibles. He has "IT". By far his biggest asset to me, is his leadership. He's a born leader. So many QB's get drafted without this quality, and fail. VY, when his days are done could be one of the better QB's to have played the game. We see glimpses of it.
But.....
His performance, his numbers and the teams wins this year does not equate to a ROY.
That's my opinion.
Last edited by Pistons < Spurs; 01-05-2007 at 01:48 AM.
Piston>Spurs-
...while i disagree that i am way to homerish with Leinart and USC (who has been the best football team the last 5 years in CFB? and Leinart was the best rookie QB, imo) i am very glad you posted this. sometimes i don't feel like going into depth on all my arguments to help prove them....but you did. Kudos! btw, i only post as much Leinart and Bush stuff as i do to combat the crazy vyoung love around here. if you noticed i haven't posted much of anything about it in the NFL forum anymore...it bores me. but, USC is on one of a run and i am going to enjoy it...probably best team in the country again next year, but i am glad the Trojans got to make the media and michigan fans look foolish. makes me feel all warm inside...
i would have given the ROY award, by far, to Drew. he finished the season strong and should have have gotten it easily....i don't even have a second place finisher, nobody was close.
LOL like I said, no offense meant, but it's not difficult to see where your allegiance lays, and often times it appears that there is a carryover of your USC love into your arguments.
But like I said, I agree with many of your general arguments and statements. I just needed to post stats and facts to back it up.
That post did take much longer than I planned on committing to it! But I do think it shows a more truthful representation of exactly what VY was, and was not responsible for.
1. appearances can be deceiving...
2. the fact that you agree with many of my sentiments must drive some other posters crazy...but hey, you're smart...you can't help it
3. i am a seeker of truth...and i am glad you helped me in my quest, good work
4. i never take anything personal...keep up the good work!
...the post is wonderful and shows what you and i have been talking about. once again, nicely done and thank you for your time and effort.
Both of you are just haters. It's funny the lengths you'll go, like posting what actually happened during the games, to discredit VY. Sad, really.
IMO, VY winning the award is much like Romo going to the Pro Bowl. Both had nice stretches, but their overall play was lacking for such awards and/or accomplishments.
lol. so basically you agree with us then?
Yep, I'm still on the fence(wait and see approach) with VY. He made a lot of plays with his legs and not nearly as many with his arm. Defenses will eventually catch up and make him win games with his arm ala Vick. I do think he is a better passer than Vick but the fact is that he needs to be able to read defenses better (one read and react in college doesn't help). There is a lot, and I mean alot, of things he needs to do to get better, not unlike most rookie QBs. No question the kid has the intangibles to play the position and excel, though.
Oh, and BTW, everyone knows Vick is dog , right? Right?
...while i will give vyoung a few years before i make a full analysis, i don't like what i saw in his first year. plus, you're right, defenses will adjust and he will be forced to make more plays with his arm = not good.
vick? vick, like vyoung, has his moments....but right now, neither of them are good QBs. all you vyoung lovers, notice i said 'right now', i know vyoung is a rookie and vick is not....but that does not mean they both are not good QBs.
again, VY's stats didn't win him the award. jones-drew may have got a few more votes if his team hadn't faded badly down the stretch.
precisely, and when you can argue, as piston<spurs and i have, that vyoung had little to do with the ans 8 wins....then there is really no reason for him to win the award at all. his stats were poor and his play on the field did not really attribute to more than 1-2 wins...shame really.
go ask young's teammates if he had anything to do with those wins, i think you'll get a different answer. then again, if you ask VY, he says it's all his teammates- pacman jones' surge also had a lot to do with it, but VY's confidence lifts the entire team. , ask jeff fisher or norm chow if he had anything to do with it. if you wanna gloss over stuff like that it's your prerogative. merrill hoge needs the support.
The vince young love is re ed. I think he's an exciting player to watch, but some of you have this huge internets chip on your shoulder that you just love to have knocked off so that you can argue how VY is going to cure world hunger and AIDS all while leading a fourth quarter drive. I don't mind the selection of young, but there were definitely options.
you forgot about cancer...
I think that's a fair assessment.
Alright Mr. Dio!!! Stop it right now!!! I had fallen for your troll shennanigans until right now! This is too much!!
Reggie is the 2nd best rook on his team!!
Him and Colston COMBINED equal 1/2 a VY!!
I'd have to give Reggie a few more yrs before I can give him any credit.
He doesn't block DLs, He can barely throw, or loft I should say, Hey! He at least was on the field more than Leinart.
How did the MRI on Leinart's PUSSY turn out anyway?
I have to agree, there is so much media hype around VY, and I hate announcers saying "Southern Cal knows exactly how dangerous Vince Young can be" every time he leads a successful drive. It's ing bull . His stats across the board suck except for his 500 rushing yards. He's not a great passer and I think his skill is being blown out of proportion, one because he's VY, and two because the ans were on the cusp of the playoffs after a 0-5 start, largely due to catching breaks from the other team, great special teams play and a few great defensive plays. He's exciting to watch and is a great playmaker sometimes, but I just can't believe Jones-Drew got screwed by a few Sportscenter plays and VY riding his teams coattails and media giving him all the credit.
it is amazing. what baffles me more is that people actually voted him ROY....voted him! i can't believe that many media people thought he deserved it. they obviously didn't watch the games...
The VY love is bad but the hate is ok?
To say he was the only choice for ROY is ignorant....to say he was not an option for the award is equally ignorant.
Jones-Drew made a great case, Young made a great case, Reggie Bush made a great case. Young got picked, that doesn't mean others didn't do enough to be considered.
The lack of objectivity on this board is amazing.
maybe they did...but just don't agree with you.it is amazing. what baffles me more is that people actually voted him ROY....voted him! i can't believe that many media people thought he deserved it. they obviously didn't watch the games..
This is you not hating on Young, right.
...a bit touchy perhaps? Sami, i expect more from you my friend. does deeming someone not worthy of an award = hating on them? .....no, thats an insane thought process. just b/c i think others should have won AND some people on this board agree....does not mean vyoung is dog . it just means we think others were more deserving. thats it.maybe they did...but just don't agree with you.
This is you not hating on Young, right.
granted, there may be some haters...but there aren't many. btw, how come no posters are refuting pistons<spurs post where he details how vyoung had little to do with the ans 8 wins?....oh thats right, its cause he is correct.
i will admit to this....i do hate all the ridiculous attention vyoung is getting, b/c he doesn't deserve it and it is taking away from more deserving individuals. but i never root for him to fail and when he actually did play well i came ON THIS BOARD and gave him props. but the bottom line is he played poorly most of the season.
before VY started, they sucked royally. when he began starting, the team started playing better as a whole, and all his teammates say he is a great leader on every team he has ever been on. his stats may not be that great, but he was the catalyst for their turnaround. i don't see how you can argue against the way he affected his team. vince young's teams find a way to win football games.
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