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  1. #51
    Believe. gtownspur's Avatar
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    Suicide.
    Collective suicide.

    Suicide?

    Seriously?

    Refrain from using extremes to prove a point.

    We are kicking ass militarily in Iraq and are losing only politically.

    We can win any war if the american people are put to mind.


    You could say that this war is a waste of time.

    But to say it's suicide as if the enemy we fight in Iraq is wiping out 100 of thousand troops in one battle and are poised at a land invasion is idiocy.

    Go read a book, or watch the history channel. It may be watered down to look at war through those mediums but they can present you a clearer picture of what cons utes victory and what doesn't.

  2. #52
    If you can't slam with the best then jam with the rest sabar's Avatar
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    Chirac muses on Iran, and then retreats
    If Iran were to try to use a nuclear weapon against Israel, "It would not have gone off 200 meters into the atmosphere before Tehran would be razed to the ground."

    By Elaine Sciolino and Katrin Bennhold
    Published: January 31, 2007

    PARIS: President Jacques Chirac said in an interview that an Iran that possessed one or two nuclear weapons would not pose much of a danger, adding that if Iran were ever to launch a nuclear weapon against a country like Israel, it would lead to the immediate destruction of Tehran.

    The remarks, made in an interview Monday with the International Herald Tribune, The New York Times and the weekly magazine Le Nouvel Observateur, were vastly different from stated French policy and from what Chirac repeatedly has said.

    So in a remarkable turnaround, Chirac summoned the journalists involved to the Élysée Palace again Tuesday to retract many of the things he had said.

    Chirac said repeatedly during the second interview that he had spoken casually and quickly the day before because he had believed he was talking about Iran off the record. Finally, he admitted that he had made a mistake.

    "It is I who was wrong and I do not want to contest it," he said. "I should have paid better attention to what I was saying and understood that perhaps I was on the record."

    The interview was conducted under an agreement that it would not be published until Thursday, when Nouvel Observateur prints.

    On Monday, Chirac began by describing as "very dangerous" Iran's refusal to stop producing enriched uranium, which can be used to produce electricity or to make nuclear weapons.

    Then he made his remarks about a nuclear-armed Iran.

    "I would say that what is dangerous about this situation is not the fact of having a nuclear bomb," he said. "Having one or perhaps a second bomb a little later, well, that's not very dangerous. But what is very dangerous is proliferation. This means that if Iran continues in the direction it has taken and totally mastering nuclear-generated electricity, the danger does not lie in the bomb it will have, and which will be of no use to it."

    Chirac explained that it would be an act of self-destruction for Iran to use a nuclear weapon against another country. "Where will it drop it, this bomb? On Israel?" Chirac asked. "It would not have gone off 200 meters into the atmosphere before Tehran would be razed to the ground."

    It was unclear whether Chirac's initial remarks reflected what he truly believed about Iran or whether he had misspoken. In the past year and a half, he is said by some French officials to have become much less precise in diplomatic conversations and to have even expressed the view that a nuclear- armed Iran might be inevitable.

    Further confusing the issue, on Monday evening, the Élysée prepared a heavily edited 19-page transcript of the interview that did not include Chirac's assessment of a nuclear-armed Iran or his prediction of what would happen if it ever tried to use it.

    Instead, the transcript added a line that Chirac had not said; it read, "I do not see what type of scenario could justify Iran's recourse to an atomic bomb."

    The attempt by the Élysée to change the president's remarks in a formal text is not unusual. It is a long-held tradition in French journalism for interview subjects, from the president to business and cultural figures, to be given the opportunity to edit the texts of question-and- answer interviews before publication.


    During the Monday interview, Chirac made clear that a more profound problem than Iran's possession of a nuclear weapon was that a nuclear-armed Iran might encourage other regional players to follow suit.

    "It is really very tempting for other countries in the region with large financial resources to say: 'Well, we too are going to do that; we're going to help others do it,'" he said. "Why wouldn't Saudi Arabia do it? Why wouldn't it help Egypt to do so as well? That is the real danger."

    In the second interview, Chirac retracted his comment that Tehran would be destroyed if Iran launched a nuclear weapon.

    "I take it back of course when I said, 'One is going to raze Tehran,'" he said. "It was of course a manner of speaking."

    He added that any number of third countries would stop an Iranian bomb from ever reaching its target.

    "It is obvious that this bomb, at the moment it was launched, obviously would be destroyed immediately," Chirac said. "We have the means, several countries have the means to destroy a bomb."


    Chirac also retracted his prediction that a nuclear Iran could lead Saudi Arabia and Egypt to follow suit.

    "I drifted — because I thought we were off the record — to say that, for example, Saudi Arabia or Egypt could be tempted to follow this example," he said. "I retract it, of course, since neither Saudi Arabia nor Egypt has made any declaration on these subjects, so it is not up to me to make them."

    As for his musing in the first interview that Israel could be a hypothetical target of an Iranian attack, Chirac said, "I don't think I spoke about Israel yesterday. Maybe I have done so but I don't think so. I have no recollection of that."

    There were other clarifications. In the initial interview, for example, Chirac referred to Iran's Islamic Republic as "a bit fragile." In the subsequent interview, he called Iran "a great country" with a "very old culture" that "has an important role to play in the region" as a force for stability.

    Chirac's initial comments contradicted long-held official French policy, which holds that Iran must not go nuclear. The thinking is that a nuclear- armed Iran would give Iran the ability to project power throughout the region, threaten its neighbors and encourage other regional players to seek the bomb.

    Under Chirac's presidency, France has joined the United States and other countries in moving to sanction Iran for refusing to stop enriching uranium, as demanded by the International Atomic Energy Agency and the United Nations Security Council.

    Just a few weeks ago, Chirac wanted to send his foreign minister to Iran to help resolve the crisis in Lebanon, an ini ative that collapsed when members of his own government said that it not only would fail, but would send a wrong signal to Iran at a time of sanctions against it.

    But there also are divisions within the French government about how far Iran should be punished for behavior that the outside world might not be able to change. There are also concerns whether the more aggressive course of action toward Iran is reminiscent of the prelude to the American-led war in Iraq which France opposed.

    Indeed, in noting the sanctions that were imposed by the Security Council against Iran last month, Chirac warned that escalation of the conflict by both sides was unwise. "Of course we can go further and further, or higher and higher up the scale in the reactions from both sides," he said. "But this is certainly not what he had in mind nor what we intend to do."

    Chirac, who is 74 and about ready to end his second term as president, also had a different demeanor during the two encounters.

    In the first interview, which took place in the morning, he appeared distracted at times, grasping for names and dates and relying on advisers to fill in the blanks. His hands shook slightly. When he spoke about climate change, he read from prepared talking points printed in large letters and highlighted in yellow and pink.

    By contrast, in the second interview, which came just after lunch, he appeared both confident and completely comfortable with the subject matter.

    The exclusive purpose of the initial interview was for Chirac to talk about climate change and an international conference for which he will be host in Paris later this week. The conference parallels a United Nations conference that will unveil a long-awaited report on the global environmental crisis.

    The question about Iran followed a comment by Chirac on the importance of developing nuclear energy programs that are transparent, safe and secure.

    Iran insists that the purpose of its uranium enrichment program is to produce peaceful nuclear energy; France, along with many other countries including the United States, is convinced that the program is part of a nuclear weapons program.

    In the midst of his initial remarks on Iran, Chirac's spokesman passed him a handwritten note, which Chirac read aloud. "Yes, he's telling me that we have to go back to the environment," Chirac said. He then continued a discussion of Shiite Muslims, who are by far the majority in Iran but a minority in the Muslim world.

    "Shiites do not have the reaction of the Sunnis or of Europeans," he said.

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/...nce.php?page=1

  3. #53
    Veteran temujin's Avatar
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    Suicide?

    Seriously?

    Refrain from using extremes to prove a point.

    It's been a while since I obeyed to anything.

    We are kicking ass militarily in Iraq

    Really?


    and are losing only politically.

    And economically.


    We can win any war if the american people are put to mind.

    Yes, for the time being, the US can win any war MILITARILY.
    And yes, the US can even blow up the whole planet. In that, though, other countries join the club.


    You could say that this war is a waste of time.

    Which one? IraQ? Or IraN?
    They are actually different places.
    We are talking IraN, here. A war on IraN.
    This is the le of the discussion.


    But to say it's suicide as if the enemy we fight in Iraq is wiping out 100 of thousand troops in one battle and are poised at a land invasion is idiocy.

    Unacceptable insult.
    I reinstate that.
    Invading IraN would be a political AND economic suicide.


    Go read a book, or watch the history channel. It may be watered down to look at war through those mediums but they can present you a clearer picture of what cons utes victory and what doesn't.
    Halmark of "kicking ass militarily" is sending more troops to win a war that has been won militarily already. It's typical.
    Another classic is invade a country that is 4 times the size, with 4 times the people of the country just militarily "defeated", while celebrating victory.
    In both cases, without the foggiest idea of what to do AFTER.
    All books and history channels (!!!!!!) agree on that.
    Last edited by temujin; 02-04-2007 at 01:07 PM.

  4. #54
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Brezinski strikes again...

    Laststeamtrain posted this statement by Zbigniew Brzezinski, prepared for the Senate Foreign Relations committee hearing Feb 1. It has gone largely unnoticed as have the hearings by the media. His statement is worth a second look because he is predicting a wider war based upon current regime propaganda:

    ...If the United States continues to be bogged down in a protracted bloody involvement in Iraq, the final destination on this downhill track is likely to be a head-on conflict with Iran and with much of the world of Islam at large. A plausible scenario for a military collision with Iran involves Iraqi failure to meet the benchmarks; followed by accusations of Iranian responsibility for the failure; then by some provocation in Iraq or a terrorist act in the U.S. blamed on Iran; culminating in a "defensive" U.S. military action against Iran that plunges a lonely America into a spreading and deepening quagmire eventually ranging across Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.

    A mythical historical narrative to justify the case for such a protracted and potentially expanding war is already being articulated. Initially justified by false claims about WMD's in Iraq, the war is now being redefined as the "decisive ideological struggle" of our time, reminiscent of the earlier collisions with Nazism and Stalinism. In that context, Islamist extremism and al Qaeda are presented as the equivalents of the threat posed by Nazi Germany and then Soviet Russia, and 9/11 as the equivalent of the Pearl Harbor attack which precipitated America's involvement in World War II.

    This simplistic and demagogic narrative overlooks the fact that Nazism was based on the military power of the industrially most advanced European state; and that Stalinism was able to mobilize not only the resources of the victorious and militarily powerful Soviet Union but also had worldwide appeal through its Marxist doctrine. In contrast, most Muslims are not embracing Islamic fundamentalism; al Qaeda is an isolated fundamentalist Islamist aberration; most Iraqis are engaged in strife because the American occupation of Iraq destroyed the Iraqi state; while Iran -- though gaining in regional influence -- is itself politically divided, economically and militarily weak. To argue that America is already at war in the region with a wider Islamic threat, of which Iran is the epicenter, is to promote a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Deplorably, the Administration's foreign policy in the Middle East region has lately relied almost entirely on such sloganeering. Vague and inflammatory talk about "a new strategic context" which is based on "clarity" and which prompts "the birth pangs of a new Middle East" is breeding intensifying anti-Americanism and is increasing the danger of a long-term collision between the United States and the Islamic world. Those in charge of U.S. diplomacy have also adopted a posture of moralistic self-ostracism toward Iran strongly reminiscent of John Foster Dulles's at ude of the early 1950's toward Chinese Communist leaders (resulting among other things in the well-known episode of the refused handshake). It took some two decades and a half before another Republican president was finally able to undo that legacy...

    Zbig notes that, "...that practically no country in the world shares the Manichean delusions that the Administration so passionately articulates."

    Zbig's recommendations include a firm timetable for withdrawal from Iraq and a rational that supports it, among other things. He finally recommends that Congress assert itself.

    Whatever else this unprincipled gentleman may be, he is a foreign policy expert. He is predicting a much wider war based upon the direction of this adminstration's demagoguery and unfounded mythology.

    Is Congress listening? Does the media report it? Why is the administration's "sloganeering" treated as a viable basis foreign policy discussion in Congress and the media?
    Washington Note

  5. #55
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Despite the WH rhetoric, war preparations with Iran complete..

    US forces almost ready for Iran air strike, say sources
    THE GUARDIAN, WASHINGTON
    Sunday, Feb 11, 2007, Page 1


    US preparations for an air strike against Iran are at an advanced stage, in spite of repeated public denials by the administration of US President George W. Bush, informed sources in Washington said.

    - snip -

    "We are planning for war. It is incredibly dangerous," he added. Cannistraro, who worked for the CIA and the National Security Council, stressed that no decision had been made
    .

    Last month Bush ordered a second battle group, led by the aircraft carrier USS John Stennis, to the Gulf in support of the USS Eisenhower. The Stennis is due to arrive within the next 10 days. Extra US Patriot missiles have been sent to the region, as well as more minesweepers, in anticipation of Iranian retaliatory action.

    In another sign that preparations are under way, Bush has ordered oil reserves to be stockpiled.

    - snip -

    Colonel Sam Gardiner, a former air force officer who has carried out war games with Iran as the target, supported the view that planning for an air strike was underway.
    Taipei times

    These crazy lunatics are gonna do it.

  6. #56
    Believe. gtownspur's Avatar
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    Halmark of "kicking ass militarily" is sending more troops to win a war that has been won militarily already. It's typical.
    Another classic is invade a country that is 4 times the size, with 4 times the people of the country just militarily "defeated", while celebrating victory.
    In both cases, without the foggiest idea of what to do AFTER.
    All books and history channels (!!!!!!) agree on that.


    what history dumbass?

    Alexander conquered landmasses 100x's more than greece. Iran does not hold a candle to the US in any regard.

    And about the economy, creating jobs, dropping unemployment rates, you need to lay off the bohemian LaRouche the PAC packets you read at the Lilth fair, to notice that our country is doing fine economically.

    THe only reason we seem at unease is because you assclowns will swear to bring any type of fear into the american phsyche while a republican is in office.

    THe economy is doing great.

    What do you sick s trumpet to beat it?

    "Duh, trade imbalance, deficit."--as if the national debt was a new phenomena.

    "Duh, gap between rich and poor." as if the middle class was spending money on luxury items like ipods, cell phones, plasmas, notebooks, tahoes in the 90's
    -oh wait, thats today. THey didn't do that in the 90's

    seriously what new class warfare regurgitated neo socialist statist crap will you bring up?

  7. #57
    Believe. gtownspur's Avatar
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    Halmark of "kicking ass militarily" is sending more troops to win a war that has been won militarily already. It's typical.
    Another classic is invade a country that is 4 times the size, with 4 times the people of the country just militarily "defeated", while celebrating victory.
    In both cases, without the foggiest idea of what to do AFTER.
    All books and history channels (!!!!!!) agree on that.

    what are you comparing that to?

    Vietnam?

    Algiers?

  8. #58
    Believe. gtownspur's Avatar
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    In Arabic there exists no particular term for the secular meaning of la nation, as defined in the historical context of the French Revolution. In classical Arabic and in the formative years of Islam there was a clear distinction between a qawm, that is, the particular tribe to which an Arab belonged, and the umma/community, which is the supreme frame of reference of iden y for all Muslims. In modern times la nation has been translated into Arabic as the very term umma, thus confusing the religious meaning of the political community established by the Prophet Muhammad in the seventh century with the secular meaning that had unfotded in Europe in the course of the eighteenth century. "Nationalism" has been translated into Arabic as the neo-Arabic term al-qawmiyya, which is based on the classical Arabic term qawm meaning tribe, people. This translation opened the way for the polemical cry of Islamic fundamentalists that secular Arab nationalists are reverting to the pre-Islamic jahiliyya/age of heedlessness of tribes. Truly, the Islamic umma historically aimed at replacing the qawm/tribe in uniting all Arab tribes in one community.
    In the secular literature of pan-Arab nationalism we confront chiefly projections of modern European meaning, such as that of la nation, into the classical Arab history and lexicon. Most of the authors of this literature trace the Arab nation back even into pre-Islamic times.[26] The ethnic conflict between Arabs and the mawali (non-Arab Muslims) is being translated into a national conflict between those who want to maintain the Arab purity of

    Islam and those who want to welcome non-Arab elements into it. Enmity and confusion—-between tribes, ethnosectarian communities, and the modern nation-—have been at work among Islamists and secularists alike.

    Political thought always reflects a worldview. In interpreting Islam as a cultural system along the lines of the anthropology of Clifford Geertz (see note 3), I want to advance the hypothesis that Islam has always been the underlying cultural basis of the particular worldview of Muslims, and even of pan-Arab secularists. In the Middle East there has never been a process of structural and cultural changes underlying an orderly shift of the world-view from a religious to a secular one, as happened in the historical process that once unfolded in Europe. In this sense, there has never been a real societal process of secularization underpinning secular ideologies in the Middle East, not even in secular Turkey. In Turkey the state claims to be secular, but the society is not; and it cannot be described as secular in the sociological meaning of the term. We can argue, in fact, that the continuity of the Islamic worldview, persisting even in the midst of social change, has facilitated the recent shift from secular ideologies to those of political Islam and to the worldview it reflects.[27] In examining Islam's function as a cultural system underlying a worldview, one cannot escape the fact that secular ideologies were never able to put down strong structural roots in Islam, or to affeet the prevailing worldview. Thus, secularization as a separation of religion and politics has remained a surface function.

    Long before the rise of Islamic fundamentalism a former sheikh of al-Azhar who received his academic education as well as his doctorate from a German university (Hamburg, 1936)[28] defined the worldview of Muslims as one based on a separation of the world into "the West" and the "abode of Islam."
    To him, the West has intruded upon the World of Islam, and in the process has provoked a deviation from Islam.[29] The concern of Muslims should ultimately be to return their people and their ideas and ins utions to Islam. It follows, then, that the desire "to rebuild Islamic social life on the very principles of Islam"[30] has always been a salient feature of Muslim thinking.




    source;


    http://middleeastinfo.org/article4453.html

  9. #59
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    dubya beating another war drum:


    BBC NEWS

    US accuses Iran over Iraq bombs

    The US military has accused the "highest levels" of Iran's government of supplying increasingly sophisticated roadside bombs to Iraq's insurgents.

    Senior defence officials told reporters in Baghdad that the bombs were being used to deadly effect, killing more than 170 US troops since June 2004.


    The weapons known as "explosively formed projectiles" (EFPs) are capable of destroying an Abrams tank.

    US claims the bombs were smuggled from Iran cannot be independently verified.

    The US officials, speaking off camera on condition of anonymity, said that EFPs had also injured more than 620 US personnel since June 2004.

    They said US intelligence analysts believed the bombs were manufactured in Iran and secretly sent into Iraq on the orders of senior officials in Tehran.

    The US has claimed in the past that Iranian weapons were being used in Iraq, but have never before accused Iranian government officials of being directly involved.

    Truck bomb

    In the latest violence in Iraq , at least 15 people were killed when a suicide bomber drove a vehicle laden with explosives into a police station near the town of Tikrit.

    At least 25 people were injured in the attack on the station in Adwar, about 175km (110 miles) north of Baghdad.

    The casualties are reported to include prisoners held in cells at the police station, as well as civilian visitors.

    Elsewhere, the US military said it was checking a report that an Apache helicopter had come down near the town of near Taji, about 20km (12 miles) north of Baghdad.

    The blast at the police station happened at about 0800 (1100GMT) as police were arriving for work, Capt Abdel-Samad Mohammed was quoted by the Associated Press as saying.

    The bomber drove a small truck that was packed with explosives covered by hay, and the force of the blast caused the building to collapse, the officer said.

    Story from BBC NEWS:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...st/6351257.stm

    Published: 2007/02/11 14:07:51 GMT

    © BBC MMVII

  10. #60
    Veteran 01Snake's Avatar
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    ^^ So you have no problem with Iran helping kill our troops in Iraq? Thats what I figured.

  11. #61
    Luck the Fakers Bob Lanier's Avatar
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    Obviously no more than you do in blindly trusting the word of "senior defense officials".

    You know, because the American military has done such a great job with intelligence gathering over the past 50 years.

  12. #62
    Veteran 01Snake's Avatar
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    Obviously no more than you do in blindly trusting the word of "senior defense officials".

    You know, because the American military has done such a great job with intelligence gathering over the past 50 years.

    Blindy trusting.

  13. #63
    Luck the Fakers Bob Lanier's Avatar
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  14. #64
    Veteran 01Snake's Avatar
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  15. #65
    Luck the Fakers Bob Lanier's Avatar
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  16. #66
    Veteran 01Snake's Avatar
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  17. #67
    Luck the Fakers Bob Lanier's Avatar
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    Racist.

  18. #68
    Veteran 01Snake's Avatar
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  19. #69
    Veteran temujin's Avatar
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    what history dumbass?

    To some, a specific one.
    To you, any.


    Alexander conquered landmasses 100x's more than greece. Iran does not hold a candle to the US in any regard.

    1) There might be a couple of additional certainties, other than "the sun will be rising tomorrow". One is that the current commander will NOT be regarded in the same class with Alexander.
    2) Precisely because Alexander had no plans whatsover for an after-war, could you remind to the -hopefully few- chaps reading your "messages" what happened to the 100X landmasses, when He prematurely passed away?


    And about the economy, creating jobs, dropping unemployment rates, you need to lay off the bohemian LaRouche the PAC packets you read at the Lilth fair, to notice that our country is doing fine economically.

    Admittedly, 11 words showing some type of interest.

    THe only reason we seem at unease is because you assclowns will swear to bring any type of fear into the american phsyche while a republican is in office.

    There are three groups of people interested in politics.
    1) Those with an immediate vested interest. It has to be immediate, though.
    2) Those with a lot of time to waste. Not just a bit.
    3) Mere idiots.
    I don't belong to any of these con uous categories.


    THe economy is doing great.

    What do you sick s trumpet to beat it?

    "Duh, trade imbalance, deficit."--as if the national debt was a new phenomena.

    "Duh, gap between rich and poor." as if the middle class was spending money on luxury items like ipods, cell phones, plasmas, notebooks, tahoes in the 90's
    -oh wait, thats today. THey didn't do that in the 90's


    But that doen't really explain the reaction.

    seriously what new class warfare regurgitated neo socialist statist crap will you bring up?
    It's actually called common sense.
    Last edited by temujin; 02-11-2007 at 06:20 PM.

  20. #70
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    here we go again... not done with one war, and on with the next huh?

  21. #71
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    BBC NEWS

    Israeli missile test 'successful'

    Israel has carried out a successful test of its Arrow missile, the defence ministry has said.

    One of the missiles was fired at night and destroyed what Israeli media said was a target similar to Iran's long-range Shahab-3 missile.

    The test took place as Iran celebrated the 28th anniversary of its Islamic revolution.


    Israel considers Iran its greatest threat since the overthrow of Saddam Hussein in Iraq in 2003, analysts say.

    'Message to Iran'

    "This evening's successful test reinforces Israel's readiness... against external threats at the extremes of its operational envelope," said Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz.

    The Arrow missile was fired from a base south of Tel Aviv at a missile launched from an aircraft over the eastern Mediterranean at a high al ude.

    This was the first test of the Arrow missile to be conducted at night.

    Israeli public television called the test a "message to Iran".

    The anti-ballistic missile system was developed jointly with the United States after Israel came under attack by Iraqi Scud missiles during the first Gulf War.

    Some Western nations, including Israel, fear Iran is trying to develop nuclear weapons.

    Iran says its nuclear programme is for peaceful purposes only.

    Story from BBC NEWS:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...st/6352659.stm

    Published: 2007/02/11 23:11:03 GMT

    © BBC MMVII

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