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  1. #51
    uups stups! Cant_Be_Faded's Avatar
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    ROFL

    that popoular mechanics study was the hugest load of bull ever
    they totally exposed that on the news show Democracy Now!

    One of the scientists they used for steel analysis didnt even specialize in that

  2. #52
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    Please, please, please read this. I'll give the liberals a reason, it bashes Bush. I know it's long, but it's ing hilarious, and right on point.


    Published on Sunday, October 1, 2006 by Rolling Stone
    I, Left Gatekeeper
    Why the "9/11 Truth" movement makes the "Left Behind" sci-fi series read like Shakespeare

    by Matt Tabbi

    A few weeks ago I wrote a column on the anniversary of 9/11 that offhandedly dismissed 9/11 conspiracy theorists as "clinically insane." I expected a little bit of heat in response, but nothing could have prepared me for the deluge of -you mail that I actually got. Apparently every third person in the United States thinks George Bush was behind the 9/11 attacks.

    "You're just another MSM- left gatekeeper paid off by corporate America," said one writer. "What you do isn't journalism at all, you ," said another. "You're the one who's clinically insane," barked a third, before educating me on the supposed anomalies of physics involved with the collapse of WTC-7.

    I have two basic gripes with the 9/11 Truth movement. The first is that it gives supporters of Bush an excuse to dismiss critics of this administration. I have no doubt that every time one of those Loose Change wads opens his mouth, a Republican somewhere picks up five votes. In fact, if there were any conspiracy here, I'd be far more inclined to believe that this whole movement was cooked up by Karl Rove as a kind of mass cyber-provocation, along the lines of Gordon Liddy hiring hippie peace protesters to piss in the lobbies of hotels where campaign reporters were staying.

    Secondly, it's bad enough that people in this country think Tim LaHaye is a prophet and Sean Hannity is an objective newsman. But if large numbers of people in this country can swallow 9/11 conspiracy theory without puking, all hope is lost. Our best hope is that the Japanese take pity on us and allow us to serve as industrial slaves in their future empire, farming sushi rice and assembling robot toys.

    I don't have the space here to address every single reason why 9/11 conspiracy theory is so shamefully stupid, so I'll have to be content with just one point: 9/11 Truth is the lowest form of conspiracy theory, because it doesn't offer an affirmative theory of the crime.

    Forget for a minute all those Internet tales about inexplicable skyscraper fires, strange holes in the ground at Shanksville and mysterious flight manifestoes. What is the theory of the crime, according to the 9/11 Truth movement?

    Strikingly, there is no obvious answer to that question, since for all the many articles about "Able Danger" and the witnesses who heard explosions at Ground Zero, there is not -- at least not that I could find -- a single do ent anywhere that lays out a single, concrete theory of what happened, who ordered what and when they ordered it, and why. There obviously is such a theory, but it has to be pieced together by implication, by paying attention to the various assertions of 9/11 lore (the towers were mined, the Pentagon was really hit by a cruise missile, etc.) and then assembling them later on into one single story. But the funny thing is, when you put together all of those disparate theories, you get the dumbest story since Roman Polanski's Pirates.

    The specifics vary, but the basic gist of what They Say Happened goes something like this:

    A group of power-hungry neocons, led by Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Bush and others and organizationally represented by groups like the Project for the New American Century, seeks to bring about a "Pearl-Harbor-like event" that would accelerate a rightist revolution, laying the political foundation for invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Your basic Reichstag fire scenario, logical enough so far. Except in this story, the Reichstag fire is an immensely complicated media hoax; the conspirators plot to topple the World Trade Center and pin a series of hijackings on a group of Sunni extremists with alleged ties to Al Qaeda. How do they topple the Trade Center? Well, they make use of NORAD's expertise in flying remote-control aircraft and actually fly two such remote-control aircraft into the Towers (in another version of the story, they conspire with Al Qaeda terrorists to actually hijack the planes), then pass the planes off as commercial jetliners in the media. But it isn't the plane crashes that topple the buildings, but bombs planted in the Towers that do the trick.

    For good measure -- apparently to lend credence to the hijacking story -- they then fake another hijacking/crash in the Pentagon, where there actually is no plane crash at all but instead a hole created by a cruise missile attack, fired by a mysterious "white jet" that after the attack circles the White House for some time, inspiring the attention of Secret Service agents who point at it curiously from the ground (apparently these White House Secret Service agents were not in on the plot, although FBI agents on scene at Ground Zero and in Shanksville and elsewhere were).

    Lastly, again apparently to lend weight to the whole hijacking cover story, they burn a big hole in the ground in Pennsylvania and claim that a jet went down there, crashed by a bunch of brave fictional civilians who fictionally storm the fictional plane cabin. The real-life wife of one of the fictional heroes, Lisa Beamer, then writes a convincingly self-serving paean/memoir to her dead husband, again lending tremendous verisimilitude to the hijacking story. These guys are good!

    Just imagine how this planning session between Bush, Rummy and Cheney must have gone:

    BUSH: So, what's the plan again?

    CHENEY: Well, we need to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. So what we've decided to do is crash a whole bunch of remote-controlled planes into Wall Street and the Pentagon, say they're real hijacked commercial planes, and blame it on the towelheads; then we'll just blow up the buildings ourselves to make sure they actually fall down.

    RUMSFELD: Right! And we'll make sure that some of the hijackers are agents of Saddam Hussein! That way we'll have no problem getting the public to buy the invasion.

    CHENEY: No, , we won't.

    RUMSFELD: We won't?

    CHENEY: No, that's too obvious. We'll make the hijackers Al Qaeda and then just imply a connection to Iraq.

    RUMSFELD: But if we're just making up the whole thing, why not just put Saddam's fingerprints on the attack?

    CHENEY: (sighing) It just has to be this way, . Ups the ante, as it were. This way, we're not insulated if things go wrong in Iraq. Gives us incentive to get the invasion right the first time around.

    BUSH: I'm a total idiot who can barely read, so I'll buy that. But I've got a question. Why do we need to crash planes into the Towers at all? Since everyone knows terrorists already tried to blow up that building complex from the ground up once, why don't we just blow it up like we plan to anyway, and blame the bombs on the terrorists?

    RUMSFELD: Mr. President, you don't understand. It's much better to sneak into the buildings ourselves in the days before the attacks, plant the bombs and then make it look like it was exploding planes that brought the buildings down. That way, we involve more people in the plot, stand a much greater chance of being exposed and needlessly complicate everything!

    CHENEY: Of course, just toppling the Twin Towers will never be enough. No one would give us the war mandate we need if we just blow up the Towers. Clearly, we also need to shoot a missile at a small corner of the Pentagon to create a mightily underpublicized additional symbol of international terrorism -- and then, obviously, we need to fake a plane crash in the middle of ing nowhere in rural Pennsylvania.

    RUMSFELD: Yeah, it goes without saying that the level of public outrage will not be sufficient without that crash in the middle of ing nowhere.

    CHENEY: And the Pentagon crash -- we'll have to do it in broad daylight and say it was a plane, even though it'll really be a cruise missile.

    BUSH: Wait, why do we have to use a missile?

    CHENEY: Because it's much easier to shoot a missile and say it was a plane. It's not easy to steer a real passenger plane into the Pentagon. Planes are hard to come by.

    BUSH: But aren't we using two planes for the Twin Towers?

    CHENEY: Mr. President, you're missing the point. With the Pentagon, we use a missile, and say it was a plane.

    BUSH: Right, but I'm saying, why don't we just use a plane and say it was a plane? We'll be doing that with the Twin Towers, right?

    CHENEY: Right, but in this case, we use a missile. (Throws hands up in frustration) Don, can you help me out here?

    RUMSFELD: Mr. President, in Washington, we use a missile because it's sneakier that way. Using an actual plane would be too obvious, even though we'll be doing just that in New York.

    BUSH: Oh, OK.

    RUMSFELD: The other good thing about saying that it was a passenger jet is that that way, we have to invent a few hundred fictional victims and account for a nonexistent missing crew and plane. It's always better when you leave more cover story to invent, more legwork to do and more possible holes to investigate. Doubt, legwork and possible exposure -- you can't pull off any good conspiracy without them.

    BUSH: You guys are brilliant! Because if there's one thing about Americans -- they won't let a president go to war without a damn good reason. How could we ever get the media, the corporate world and our military to endorse an invasion of a secular Iraqi state unless we faked an attack against New York at the hands of a bunch of Saudi religious radicals? Why, they'd never buy it. Look at how hard it was to get us into Vietnam, Iraq the last time, Kosovo?

    CHENEY: Like pulling teeth!

    RUMSFELD: Well, I'm sold on the idea. Let's call the Joint Chiefs, the FAA, the New York and Washington, D.C., fire departments, Rudy Giuliani, all three networks, the families of a thousand fictional airline victims, MI5, the FBI, FEMA, the NYPD, Larry Eagleburger, Osama bin Laden, Noam Chomsky and the fifty thousand other people we'll need to pull this off. There isn't a moment to lose!

    BUSH: Don't forget to call all of those Wall Street hotshots who donated $100 million to our last campaign. They'll be thrilled to know that we'll be targeting them for execution as part of our thousand-tentacled modern-day bonehead Reichstag scheme! After all, if we're going to make martyrs -- why not make them out of our campaign paymasters? , didn't the Merrill Lynch guys say they needed a refurbishing in their New York offices?

    RUMSFELD: Oh, they'll get a refurbishing, all right. Just in time for the "Big Wedding"!

    ALL THREE: (cackling) Mwah-hah-hah!

    You get the idea. None of this stuff makes any sense at all. If you just need an excuse to assume authoritarian powers, why fake a plane crash in Shanksville? What the does that accomplish? If you're using bombs, why fake a hijacking, why use remote-control planes? If the entire government apparatus is in on the scam, then why bother going to all this murderous trouble at all -- only to go to war a year later with a country no one even bothered to falsely blame for the attacks? You won't see any of this explored in 9/11 Truth lore, because the "conspiracy" they're describing is impossible everywhere outside a Zucker brothers movie -- unbelievably stupid in its conception, pointlessly baroque and excessive in its particulars, but flawless in its execution, with no concrete evidence left behind and tens of thousands keeping their roles a secret forever.

    We are to imagine that not one of Bush's zillions of murderous confederates would slip and leave real incriminating evidence anywhere along the way, forcing us to deduce this massive crime via things like the shaking of a do entary filmmaker's tripod before the Towers' collapse (aha, see that shaking -- it must have been a bomb planted by the president and his ten thousand allies!). Richard Nixon was a hundred times smarter than Bush, and he couldn't prevent leaks and cries of anguished pseudo-conscience from sprouting among a dozen intimately involved conspirators -- but under the 9/11 conspiracy theory, even the lowest FBI agent used to seal off the crime scene never squeaks. It's absurd.

    I challenge a 9/11 Truth leader like Loose Change writer Dylan Avery to come up with a detailed, complete summary of the alleged plot -- not the bits and pieces, but the whole story, put together -- that would not make any fifth grader anywhere burst out in convulsive laughter. And without that, all the rest of it is bosh and bunkum, on the order of the "sonar evidence" proving the existence of the Loch Ness monster. If you can't put all of these alleged scientific impossibilities together into a story that makes sense, then all you're doing is jerking off -- and it's not like no one's ever done that on the Internet before.

    Whenever anyone chooses to dismiss 9/11 conspiracy theorists, accusations fly; the Internet screams that you've aided and abetted George Bush. I disagree. To me, the 9/11 Truth movement is, itself, a classic example of the pathology of George Bush's America. Bush has presided over a country that has become hopelessly divided into insoluble, paranoid tribes, one of which happens to be Bush's own government. All of these tribes have things in common; they're insular movements that construct their own reality by cherry-picking the evidence they like from the vast information marketplace, violently disbelieve in the humanity of those outside their ranks, and lavishly praise their own movement mediocrities as great thinkers and achievers. There are as many Thomas Paines in the 9/11 Truth movement as there are Isaac Newtons among the Intelligent Design crowd.

    There's not a whole lot of difference, psychologically, between Sean Hannity's followers believing liberals to be the same as terrorists, and 9/11 Truthers believing even the lowest soldier or rank-and-file FAA or NORAD official to be a cold-blooded mass murderer. In both cases you have to be far gone enough into your private world of silly tribal bull that the concept of "your fellow citizen" has ceased to have any meaning whatsoever. It may be that America has become too big and complicated for most people to deal with being part of. People are longing for a smaller, stupider reality. Some, like Bush, sell a prepackaged version. Others just make theirs up out of thin air. God help us.

    Copyright © 2006 Rolling Stone

    Priceless

    http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1001-24.htm

  3. #53
    "Have to check the film" PixelPusher's Avatar
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    ^^Thanks for that. He captures the "logic" behind the theories perfectly.

    btw, the next 9/11 conspiracy theorist I meet who has a degree in structural engineering will be the first.
    Last edited by PixelPusher; 02-02-2007 at 11:07 PM.

  4. #54
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    humm....very amusing article, but remember that even Hitler was just the public face of the third reich, the real power, and planning, the money, the organization, lay somewhere else. Also, remember Nixon's and LBJ's rantings about the power behind the power? Scared the out of Nixon and drove LBJ back to Texas.

  5. #55
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
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    The US has the remains of an alien battle ship and the man never set foot on the moon.

    Ohh, and that alien autopsy of some years ago was totally real!

    Morons . . .

  6. #56
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
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    ^^Thanks for that. He captures the "logic" behind the theories perfectly.

    btw, the next 9/11 conspiracy theorist I meet who has a degree in structural engineering will be the first.
    Ding ding ding.

  7. #57
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
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    humm....very amusing article, but remember that even Hitler was just the public face of the third reich, the real power, and planning, the money, the organization, lay somewhere else. Also, remember Nixon's and LBJ's rantings about the power behind the power? Scared the out of Nixon and drove LBJ back to Texas.
    Drove LBJ back to Texas? He was a weak president and Americans didn't like him.

  8. #58
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
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    WHy are the conspiracy theorists always dudes with extreme left political views?

  9. #59
    Keith Jackson mookie2001's Avatar
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    what is extreme left?, those who dont like democrats or republicans

  10. #60
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
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    what is extreme left?, those who dont like democrats or republicans
    No extreme left is Dan and boutons.

  11. #61
    Keith Jackson mookie2001's Avatar
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    well I don't know their exact views on anything, I think like me they have major questions and see right through the biggest holes of the official story. I think they have also connected the dots on WHO HAS BENEFITED from 9/11 But yeah those who dont trust Bush or the government are more likely to NOT TRUST them.



    why are evangelicals for war without end?

  12. #62
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    Man, I usually hate Rolling Stone's political takes, but that article was brilliant.


  13. #63
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    humm....very amusing article, but remember that even Hitler was just the public face of the third reich, the real power, and planning, the money, the organization, lay somewhere else. Also, remember Nixon's and LBJ's rantings about the power behind the power? Scared the out of Nixon and drove LBJ back to Texas.


    Dan is inscrutable. He'll always imply that the masterminds "lay elsewhere," but when you try to pin him down, he always blinks, with garbage like "do your own research" or "I can't say it here."

    I don't know what kind of mental disorder causes this. One does not have to go completely insane just to be a skeptic of the powers that be.

  14. #64
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    what is extreme left?, those who dont like democrats or republicans

    The extreme left is the extreme right...anarchists, racial and religious supremecists...etc. It's just like a big ole globe, you go far enough one direction and you wind up on the other side.

    The KKK has a lot more in common with the Nation of Islam than it does with the Republican party(excluding the fact that the KKK was founded by a Democrat and the Democrats(and our good liberla friends the French) were the ones that fought against the abolition of slavery in the civil war....


    Difference between the two parties, and why Bush got elected legit in 04, is there is almost no moderate base on the left anymore....it's further skewed than the right...in 04 the moderates went to the right.

    Most Americans don't vote strict party affiliation, and those that do are stupid...

    IF calling myself a Republican or a Democrat gurantees me someones vote, that someone is a dumbass.

    Believing that one party is always right and the other is always wrong is an ultimate bigotry.

    This is why the opinion of boutons on Republicans is about as valuable as a 's opinion on...well never mind. IT is a 's opinion.
    Last edited by whottt; 02-03-2007 at 02:03 PM.

  15. #65
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    No extreme left is Dan and boutons.
    boutons is not really extreme left, believe it or not. He just really really really really really really really hates the current President and the power structure of the Republicans. Politically, I liken him to the fire-breathing, but merely center-left blogger Duncan Black (aka Atrios), with maybe one-fifth the intelligence. (That sounds like an insult, but Black is really smart.)

    Remember that boutons is extremely pro-Israel. I'd guess that he is a secular Jew, but you can't really tell from posts on the internets.

    Dan does not really seem to have a well-developed belief structure. One day he will gush about Hugo Chavez and/or Fidel Castro and his marvelous ideas for the poor, then the next day he will lecture us about how Ronald Reagan had nothing to do with winning the Cold War, because after all Marxism is inherently inferior to capitalism as an economic system. He does this with no sense of irony. You can tell he is well-read, but it seems there is just one short-circuit up there in the gray matter that keeps him short of a coherent worldview.

  16. #66
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    well I don't know their exact views on anything, I think like me they have major questions and see right through the biggest holes of the official story. I think they have also connected the dots on WHO HAS BENEFITED from 9/11 But yeah those who dont trust Bush or the government are more likely to NOT TRUST them.



    why are evangelicals for war without end?
    One of the reasons the rich who stay rich, stay rich, is because they are clever enough to leverage their assets so that just about any event benefits them, and because they are resourceful enough to know how to act toward their own benefit when something does happen.

    There are people that benefitted from Hurricane Katrina as well, but I hope you don't believe that some conspiracy concocted a giant hurricane-maker.

  17. #67
    Believe. gtownspur's Avatar
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    well I don't know their exact views on anything, I think like me they have major questions and see right through the biggest holes of the official story. I think they have also connected the dots on WHO HAS BENEFITED from 9/11 But yeah those who dont trust Bush or the government are more likely to NOT TRUST them.



    why are evangelicals for war without end?

    If you don't know their views on anything, (since they post a zillion times here and every other post is either dan or buttons), how do you comprehend their talking points? Add to the fact that the rest of the paragraph leaves us to believe that you do know their motivations and views, since you just demonstrate that in there.


    Mookie you either can't connect your own dots within yourself, or you're completely dishonest like your sis, Can't Be faded -de la Hoya-Lamarcus Bryant.
    Last edited by gtownspur; 02-03-2007 at 02:07 PM.

  18. #68
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    There are people that benefitted from Hurricane Katrina as well, but I hope you don't believe that some conspiracy concocted a giant hurricane-maker.
    Levee bomb theory in 3... 2...

  19. #69
    Keith Jackson mookie2001's Avatar
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    pretty original, nobody has ever joked that liberals think Bush starts Hurricaines, at least not in this forum

  20. #70
    Believe. gtownspur's Avatar
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    pretty original, nobody has ever joked that liberals think Bush starts Hurricaines, at least not in this forum
    why not?

    If bush can orchestrate 911 attacks to bring him into an unpopular war, and make him the worst aggie -marriot- conservative -ohio st.- linebacker president, rofl, rofl.

    why can't he orchestrate hurricanes so that black people will die and thus brand him a gutless aggy,rofl rofl.

  21. #71
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    boutons is not really extreme left, believe it or not. He just really really really really really really really hates the current President and the power structure of the Republicans. Politically, I liken him to the fire-breathing, but merely center-left blogger Duncan Black (aka Atrios), with maybe one-fifth the intelligence. (That sounds like an insult, but Black is really smart.)

    Remember that boutons is extremely pro-Israel. I'd guess that he is a secular Jew, but you can't really tell from posts on the internets..

    Kinda right, but kinda giving boutons too much credit...boutons is a giant bag who has let his dislike of Bush destroy any objective political opinions he might have....he is a total subjective who is pretty much governened politically by his intense personal dislike of W rather than any rational or logical thought.

    W has no bigger than boutons.

    Bush is extremely uncharmismatic and has an unlikeable demeanor, add to this his well known silver spoon upbringing, and there's just really not a whole lot to personally like about W....and quite a bit to despise when combined with his obviously public speaking struggles...

    That doesn't mean he is the antichrist and that everything he has tried to do as PResident is wrong...boutons doesn't get it, lots don't...

    That's why they allowed their visceral hatred of Bush to somehow misguide them into thinking they could run a "lose the war and world leadership position, and be proud of it" candidate in 04 and ended up pushing more votes onto Bush than he ever would have gotten had he merely been running on his own record.

    I personally despise Bush, I nearly had a stroke when he became President in 2000...at the same time, I was able to separate my innate dislike of him from his basic intentions in 04 as well as take an objective view as to what IMO it would take to solve the problems in the middle east, and then I looked at what Kerry and the crats were doing.....yeap, Bush started looking pretty good.


    IT's kinda like you know how dogs can sense fear? And it doesn't matter what kind of person you are if they are sensing that fear, the dog is going to react instinctively....

    That's kinda the way boutons is with Bush...he just doesn't like Bush, it's an instinctive thing, animal instinct and he can't control it.

    His political posts are not that of a person using sentient thought....merely instinct and it has destroyed his objectivity and turned him into a anti-repub and Bush's personal .

    That's my .02. There's no way you can reconcile bouton's various political opinions to any coherent or rational stance. Just a poor bas incapable of using the higher thought and logic capabilities given to and available to many of us humans by evolution, when his emotional buttons are being pushed

  22. #72
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
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    One of the reasons the rich who stay rich, stay rich, is because they are clever enough to leverage their assets so that just about any event benefits them, and because they are resourceful enough to know how to act toward their own benefit when something does happen.

    There are people that benefitted from Hurricane Katrina as well, but I hope you don't believe that some conspiracy concocted a giant hurricane-maker.
    Yep, once you grow up and are successful in the business world, things start to click in a business sense, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to leverage your assets for a profit.

  23. #73
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
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    pretty original, nobody has ever joked that liberals think Bush starts Hurricaines, at least not in this forum
    Yeah, but there were a few claiming he had the military blow up the dikes...

  24. #74
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
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    why not?

    If bush can orchestrate 911 attacks to bring him into an unpopular war, and make him the worst aggie -marriot- conservative -ohio st.- linebacker president, rofl, rofl.

    why can't he orchestrate hurricanes so that black people will die and thus brand him a gutless aggy,rofl rofl.
    I'm not sure what your fascination is with branding Bush an 'aggy'. He's a 'horn through and through.

  25. #75
    Believe. gtownspur's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what your fascination is with branding Bush an 'aggy'. He's a 'horn through and through.

    Sorry Aggie,

    That post was just mocking Mooks and his sorority and their penchant for labeling anything beyond their comprehension as aggie.

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