Mike Monroe: Who's the best?

[mabber]

then who is there? Kobe and Lebron obviously havent led their teams anywhere lately... at least not nearly as far as Wade has led his.

At least they're leading their teams to decent records. Wade hasn't done a damn thing w/o Shaq this season. I think Wade is a really good player but until he at least wins a lot of games w/o Shaq then I'm not sold. A lot of people underestimate the impact that Shaq has even at this point of his career.

[stretch]

At least they're leading their teams to decent records. Wade hasn't done a damn thing w/o Shaq this season. I think Wade is a really good player but until he at least wins a lot of games w/o Shaq then I'm not sold. A lot of people underestimate the impact that Shaq has even at this point of his career.

but he singlehandedly took over a series and won a ring, did he not? While Shaq is an important part of that team, it is still Wade's team, and he was the one who had to take over the series becaues the rest of the team wasnt doing , and averaged 40 points a game. not Shaq. without Shaq, they probably dont get to the finals. but without Wade, they dont even make the playoffs.

Lebron has no rings, and only 1 playoff appearance. Kobe won rings when he was the second option, behind a Shaq in his prime, which is among the most dominant players the league has ever seen. Kobe in his first season of leading his team, led them out of the playoffs, and in his second season, choked away a 3-1 series lead. Wade hasnt done that yet, and still, the season isnt over. I still think that we are going to see a re-match of last years Finals, but of course with the Mavs dominating.

[mabber]

but he singlehandedly took over a series and won a ring, did he not? While Shaq is an important part of that team, it is still Wade's team, and he was the one who had to take over the series becaues the rest of the team wasnt doing , and averaged 40 points a game. not Shaq. without Shaq, they probably dont get to the finals. but without Wade, they dont even make the playoffs.

Lebron has no rings, and only 1 playoff appearance. Kobe won rings when he was the second option, behind a Shaq in his prime, which is among the most dominant players the league has ever seen. Kobe in his first season of leading his team, led them out of the playoffs, and in his second season, choked away a 3-1 series lead. Wade hasnt done that yet, and still, the season isnt over. I still think that we are going to see a re-match of last years Finals, but of course with the Mavs dominating.

Aren't the Heat about 6 games under 500 w/o Shaq this season? (and yes I realize that Jason Williams has been out a lot). The Heat are hot now 7 of last 8 ever since Shaq has come back (and he's not even playing that well yet). Yes, Wade is their best player (by far) but it's Shaq that makes that team a le contender.

I've been saying all along that I think the Mavs & Heat will make the finals again (assuming Shaq stays healthy now). So I agree with you on that.

[resistanze]

Kidd's numbers with the Nets back in '01, '02, and '03 wouldn't get him MVP honors now so I don't see how he matters in this argument. Jason Kidd's offensive efficiency was beyond terrible and would be ridiculed next to Nash. Kidd has great court vision, yeah, but he's never really had a reliable outside game to speak of and it's been his achilles heel his whole career. No way in should a PG (or "the best player on the planet") be shooting anywhere near 40% (or lower) as many seasons as Kidd has. And let's take a look at Kidd's numbers during his supposed MVP candidate year.

Kidd '02 -
14.7 ppg, 9.9 assts, 7.3 rebs, 2 stls
FG% - .391 3P% - .320 FT% .814

Steve Nash (presently)
19.3 ppg, 11.8 assts, 3.3 rebs, .72 steals
FG% - .543 3P% - .490 FT% .882


Give Jason Kidd's "MVP" numbers to Nash today and suggest that Nash is an MVP candidate and watch this place die laughing.

Interesting point. However, the numbers you quoted for Nash weren't the ones that garnered him the MVP. Nash didn't need these especially nice numbers to win.

Nash from '05
15.5 ppg, 11.5 ast, 3.3 rebs, 1.0 stls
FG% - .502 3P% - .431 FT% .887

Seems like a fairer comparison to Kidd's numbers. The whole argument for Nash's MVP as I recall was not predicated around his numbers anyways, I don't remember a previous MVP averaging such a low PPG. It was mostly in the instant turnaround that accompanied his rival. That same argument worked for Kidd also and considering there was some talk of Kidd getting MVP in '02, I don't think his FG% was much of an issue, considering what he did on D and Rebs.

[diego]

as far as kidd and nash, kidd's nets werent competing for the best record and got their asses handed to them in the finals. nash's suns may have not made it to the finals, but in the deeper west they were stronger. besides, MVP is at least in theory a regular season award.

I like nash's game and dont have a problem with him winning MVP. Unfortunately, because other players have been snubbed in the past for winning it the year before, I dont think nash should be the 1st since Jordan to get 3 in a row, particularly because his suns havent been juggernauts in that period. but this is his most deserving season of the 3.

as for the rest, I dont like Kobe and think his D is overrated. My candidate after nash is dirk. dirk isnt quite spectacular but he is very consistent. wade doesnt belong in this discussion yet- he's very good but there are a number of very good wings in the league. nash is the best PG, and dirk is the best big. they both make good teams contenders.

as for the best of the best, the parameters are different. you cant choose the best of the best based on one season. nor can you do it based on potential. and you have to take into account the difficulty in finding someone else who can do what the other guy does. duncan best fits this description, a guy who can rebound, block shots, make the right pass, score from a variety of places, and perform under pressure. but the more I elaborate, the less it sounds like 2007 Tim. i think right now there is no clear cut best, shaq is done, duncan is not as dominant as he used to be, and nash and dirk are probably the best right now but not by big enough a margin where you dont see them being eclipsed in a year or two.

just my 2 cents.

[hitmanyr2k]

Interesting point. However, the numbers you quoted for Nash weren't the ones that garnered him the MVP. Nash didn't need these especially nice numbers to win.

Nash from '05
15.5 ppg, 11.5 ast, 3.3 rebs, 1.0 stls
FG% - .502 3P% - .431 FT% .887

Seems like a fairer comparison to Kidd's numbers. The whole argument for Nash's MVP as I recall was not predicated around his numbers anyways, I don't remember a previous MVP averaging such a low PPG. It was mostly in the instant turnaround that accompanied his rival. That same argument worked for Kidd also and considering there was some talk of Kidd getting MVP in '02, I don't think his FG% was much of an issue, considering what he did on D and Rebs.

I think that same "turn-around" argument could have worked for Kidd but 2 things killed it for him. One, I think Kidd's FG% cost him because people recognized he was a liability on offense. When Kidd ran the break it was a thing of beauty but in a half court game teams would dare him to shoot and much more often than not he would miss. 39% shooting for a PG is atrocious. Secondly, the Nets played in the much weaker Eastern Conference and still only won 52 games while Nash was in the superior Western Conference and led his team to 62 wins.

[stretch]

Aren't the Heat about 6 games under 500 w/o Shaq this season? (and yes I realize that Jason Williams has been out a lot). The Heat are hot now 7 of last 8 ever since Shaq has come back (and he's not even playing that well yet). Yes, Wade is their best player (by far) but it's Shaq that makes that team a le contender.

I agree that Shaq makes them a le contender, but they arent le contenders without Wade either. and remember... it was WADE who took over the series when it was slipping away, and averaged 40 ppg and made all the most clutch baskets in the series... not Shaq, Mourning, Walker, or Williams. it was Wade. and even though the Heat are under 500 without Shaq, imagine what they would be without Wade. if that team went an entire season without Wade, they MAYBE win 15 games. they have a team full with Shaq, and a bunch of third and fourth options, but no one that can be consistently good, and lead the team to victory. everyone on that team, including Shaq, is an incredibly streaky player now. Wade is the glue that keeps that team in talks of being in the Finals. not Shaq.

[mabber]

I agree that Shaq makes them a le contender, but they arent le contenders without Wade either. and remember... it was WADE who took over the series when it was slipping away, and averaged 40 ppg and made all the most clutch baskets in the series... not Shaq, Mourning, Walker, or Williams. it was Wade. and even though the Heat are under 500 without Shaq, imagine what they would be without Wade. if that team went an entire season without Wade, they MAYBE win 15 games. they have a team full with Shaq, and a bunch of third and fourth options, but no one that can be consistently good, and lead the team to victory. everyone on that team, including Shaq, is an incredibly streaky player now. Wade is the glue that keeps that team in talks of being in the Finals. not Shaq.

I can't argue with anything you just wrote, but it still doesn't convince me that Wade is the best player in the league right now. Wade even said recently that one of his goals was to "master" the game like Kobe already has. That sounds to me like even he knows he's not the best yet.

[stretch]

I can't argue with anything you just wrote, but it still doesn't convince me that Wade is the best player in the league right now. Wade even said recently that one of his goals was to "master" the game like Kobe already has. That sounds to me like even he knows he's not the best yet.

well, most players that are even the best, wont go out and say they are "the best" either.

and yes, i think Kobe has a more developed game than Wade. but the biggest difference between the two is that Wade knows how to lead a team and win, and Kobe doesnt. knowing how to win is the most important characteristic to have if you want to be the best. i think Kobe is the most skilled player in the NBA, but i dont think he is the best basketball player in the NBA.

[mabber]

well, most players that are even the best, wont go out and say they are "the best" either.

and yes, i think Kobe has a more developed game than Wade. but the biggest difference between the two is that Wade knows how to lead a team and win, and Kobe doesnt. knowing how to win is the most important characteristic to have if you want to be the best. i think Kobe is the most skilled player in the NBA, but i dont think he is the best basketball player in the NBA.

My bad...I guess those championships with Lakers don't count as winning.

[stretch]

My bad...I guess those championships with Lakers don't count as winning.

but who's team was that? Kobe's? or Shaq's?

We all know that was Shaq's team. Just like we all know Miami is Wade's team. Wade was the one who took over the series and won it for Miami. But Kobe didnt do that for the Lakers. Last i checked, during that run, it was Shaq who got all the Finals MVPs, and league MVP awards. not Kobe. but now that the Lakers are Kobe's team, what have they done? he first destroyed a dynasty that would have likely won more les, then led his team out of the playoffs, and led his team to a masterful choke job against Phoenix the next year. but Wade... he took a team that was literally doing NOTHING, and got them to the second round of the playoffs in his first year, then ECF in his second, and then carried them to a championship in his third. sorry, but if i need someone who is a winner and a good leader on my team, i will take Dwayne Wade in a heartbeat.

[mabber]

but who's team was that? Kobe's? or Shaq's?

We all know that was Shaq's team. Just like we all know Miami is Wade's team. Wade was the one who took over the series and won it for Miami. But Kobe didnt do that for the Lakers. Last i checked, during that run, it was Shaq who got all the Finals MVPs, and league MVP awards. not Kobe. but now that the Lakers are Kobe's team, what have they done? he first destroyed a dynasty that would have likely won more les, then led his team out of the playoffs, and led his team to a masterful choke job against Phoenix the next year. but Wade... he took a team that was literally doing NOTHING, and got them to the second round of the playoffs in his first year, then ECF in his second, and then carried them to a championship in his third. sorry, but if i need someone who is a winner and a good leader on my team, i will take Dwayne Wade in a heartbeat.

My heart is just not in this argument enough to continue as I'm more of a fan of Wade than I am of Kobe. I'd still take Kobe over Wade at this point with everything else being equal. Over on one of the Miami Heat forums, they are debating if Wade is already better than Michael Jordan ever was...I you not

[stretch]

My heart is just not in this argument enough to continue as I'm more of a fan of Wade than I am of Kobe. I'd still take Kobe over Wade at this point with everything else being equal. Over on one of the Miami Heat forums, they are debating if Wade is already better than Michael Jordan ever was...I you not

thats fine. its debatable. just IMO, Wade has shown that he is a better basketball player right now than Kobe. but everyone is en led to their own opinion.

but we can definitely agree that Wade isnt on the same level as Jordan, LOL. thats just ridiculous.