Why is Patrick Ewing never considered soft?

[ggoose25]

step off my big beast. that gorilla looking motha a tear your limbs off and beat you with them

[LAKERS4LIFE]

I can never understand why Robinson losing the 95 series = him being soft. Robinson never had the team to take to the promised land. Taking on an immense amount of responsibilities and hauling the likes of Vinny Del Negro, Avery Johnson and JR Reid to the playoffs only set up unrealistic expectations that he can take that crap of a team to the top.
Robinson, by himself, is worth a bunch of wins in his prime (35+ his rookie year, but Strickland and mings joined as well, a -39 when he got hurt in 96, but so did Elliott and Chuck Person.) in the regular season. When they were in the playoffs, teams realized, “Hey, non of the other Spurs can score, even when wide open, I just have to collapse on Robinson to destroy their whole offense” after watching some tapes of the Spurs. It was that simple.
You close out on Hakeem and Smith, Maxwell, Cassell, Horry, Elie and Drexler will kill you on the outside, you close out on Shaq and Penny, Scott, Anderson will kill you with 3pters, you close out on Ewing and Starks, and Harper will kill you. Who does Robinson have? Elliott with a bad kidney, and that’s it. It is much more of FOs fault as anybody. I remember EVERY SINGLE YEAR in the early 90s when the Spurs were supposed to get an outside shooter to complement Robinson on offense, which never happened. It was such an obvious thing that all the announcers were talking about it every game I watch the Spurs, it was THAT obvious, EVERYBODY knows that you only have to collapse on Robinson and you can stop them.
I tend to agree that Robinson was out played in the 95 series, even though there were many other factors in play and it’s naïve to strictly look at numbers and ignore the fact that Robinson was doubled/tripled throughout the whole series (and that was the days of illegal defense, the Spurs should have shot at least 5 FTs on illegal D, if not on every trip on offense in that series), but to label him as soft because of it was hardly accurate or objective.
Also, Robinson was labeled soft before that series, because he was good with math, science, enjoys family time, and don’t cuss people out. In other words, I tend to believe that it was a largely ignorant and intellectual inferior group of macho man who first labeled Robinson soft because he was different. It’s just a form of discrimination against people who are different from you.

David Robinson = Soft
Timmy = Soft
Hot Pink & Turquoise Unis = Soft
San Antonio as a City = Soft


San Antonio SPURS will be labeled SOFT 4 Ever!!!

Deal with it Softy!!!!!!!

[mardigan]

David Robinson = Soft
Timmy = Soft
Hot Pink & Turquoise Unis = Soft
San Antonio as a City = Soft


San Antonio SPURS will be labeled SOFT 4 Ever!!!

Deal with it Softy!!!!!!!

What a waste of a post

[cornbread]

I can't remember one instance where anybody was ever idiotic enough to call Tim Duncan soft. Not even Bill Walton is that stupid.

Mono, allow me to introduce you to LAKERS4LIFE.

Timmy = Soft

[LAKERS4LIFE]

S O F T !!!!

[mardigan]

Soft is throwing elbows at Euros and Ashton Kutcher look-a-like's

[nsrammstein]

Some spurs fans and mavs fans amaze me with their level of stupidity. Dirk, Ewing, and Robinson are not soft. The Malone & Stockton Jazz lost twice to the Bulls were they soft? I don't think so.

[Louae]

Good for him. He was still soft. Since when does blocking a shot make you "physical"? How physical was Mark Eaton?

A man taking corison shots in the back to relieve back pain and then going out to guard Shaq is not someone whose soft.

He was called soft for all the wrong reasons. Drob was one of the toughest guys in the league. Beating your chest and yelling like an mindless animal gets nowhere with me.

[DarrinS]

David Robinson = Soft
Timmy = Soft
Hot Pink & Turquoise Unis = Soft
San Antonio as a City = Soft


San Antonio SPURS will be labeled SOFT 4 Ever!!!

Deal with it Softy!!!!!!!

Spurs are soft.


But these guys are hard.

[DarrinS]

"Damn, Kobe, save it for Colorado."

[DarrinS]

The Lakers appear to be a close-knit group.

[bobbyjoe]

I can never understand why Robinson losing the 95 series = him being soft. Robinson never had the team to take to the promised land. Taking on an immense amount of responsibilities and hauling the likes of Vinny Del Negro, Avery Johnson and JR Reid to the playoffs only set up unrealistic expectations that he can take that crap of a team to the top.
Robinson, by himself, is worth a bunch of wins in his prime (35+ his rookie year, but Strickland and mings joined as well, a -39 when he got hurt in 96, but so did Elliott and Chuck Person.) in the regular season. When they were in the playoffs, teams realized, “Hey, non of the other Spurs can score, even when wide open, I just have to collapse on Robinson to destroy their whole offense” after watching some tapes of the Spurs. It was that simple.
You close out on Hakeem and Smith, Maxwell, Cassell, Horry, Elie and Drexler will kill you on the outside, you close out on Shaq and Penny, Scott, Anderson will kill you with 3pters, you close out on Ewing and Starks, and Harper will kill you. Who does Robinson have? Elliott with a bad kidney, and that’s it. It is much more of FOs fault as anybody. I remember EVERY SINGLE YEAR in the early 90s when the Spurs were supposed to get an outside shooter to complement Robinson on offense, which never happened. It was such an obvious thing that all the announcers were talking about it every game I watch the Spurs, it was THAT obvious, EVERYBODY knows that you only have to collapse on Robinson and you can stop them.
I tend to agree that Robinson was out played in the 95 series, even though there were many other factors in play and it’s naïve to strictly look at numbers and ignore the fact that Robinson was doubled/tripled throughout the whole series (and that was the days of illegal defense, the Spurs should have shot at least 5 FTs on illegal D, if not on every trip on offense in that series), but to label him as soft because of it was hardly accurate or objective.
Also, Robinson was labeled soft before that series, because he was good with math, science, enjoys family time, and don’t cuss people out. In other words, I tend to believe that it was a largely ignorant and intellectual inferior group of macho man who first labeled Robinson soft because he was different. It’s just a form of discrimination against people who are different from you.

Chuck Person, Sean Elliott, Dale Ellis, and Vinny Del Negro (inside the arc) couldn't shoot?

Besides Avery Johnson, what guards did DRob play with who were liabilities as outside shooters? (And Avery made up for this with his superior play in transition and his ability to get to the basket).

You really overplay the whole Robinson played with 11 garbage players around him while Hakeem/Ewing/Shaq had all these all stars angle.

Teams dont only scout in the postseason btw. If what you're saying is true and SA was that horrible besides #50, they wouldnt have won 50 plus games almost year in and year out in a compe ive conference.

[LAKERS4LIFE]

S O F T !!!

[LAKERS4LIFE]

JOTOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mardigan]

This one speaks for itself

[LAKERS4LIFE]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's my ACE BON COOON!!!!!!!!!!!

[LongBall]

The Lakers appear to be a close-knit group.

Damn gay Lakers

[ponky]

the pics on this page are hilarious...and the *JOTOS* statement made me laugh

[ambchang]

Chuck Person, Sean Elliott, Dale Ellis, and Vinny Del Negro (inside the arc) couldn't shoot?

Besides Avery Johnson, what guards did DRob play with who were liabilities as outside shooters? (And Avery made up for this with his superior play in transition and his ability to get to the basket).

You really overplay the whole Robinson played with 11 garbage players around him while Hakeem/Ewing/Shaq had all these all stars angle.

Teams dont only scout in the postseason btw. If what you're saying is true and SA was that horrible besides #50, they wouldnt have won 50 plus games almost year in and year out in a compe ive conference.

I will list the stats out in FG%/3pt%/FT%
Chuck Person
Chuck Person played with the Spurs for 3 season, 95, 96 and 98.
In 95:
RS: 10.8 ppg, on 42.3/38.7 / 64.7
PO: 5 ppg on 35/29/73

In 96:
RS: 10.9 ppg on 43.7/41/64.4
PO: 12.1 ppg on 53/53/82

In 98:
RS: 6.7 ppg on 35.9 /34.4 / 75.7
PO: 5.8 on 34/35/100

Oh man, what a shooter, he shot 35 or less in 2 out of the 3 playoffs, and never more than 44% in the regular season.

Dale Ellis
In 93:
In the playoffs that year, Ellis averaged 12.5 ppg, on 45% FG, 31% 3pt, 81 FT% vs. 16.7 ppg on 50%, 40% and 80% in the regular season. I am sure you can somehow attribute him not nailing outside shots to Robinson choking when Robinson was shooting 11 FTA in the playoffs, vs. 9.3 in the regular season, showing he is being hacked more often.
94, same story.
Reg: 15.2 ppg on 49, 39 and 78.
PO: 10.5 ppg on 40, 29 and 60.

Vinny Del Negro
All you have to know is that he didn’t even get regular time with the late 80’s Kings. But since you asked:
He played for the Spurs for 6 seasons, 93 to 98.
In those years:
93
RS: 9.7 on 50.7/25/85.6
PO: 5 on 45/22/100

94
RS: 7.4 on 48.7/34.9/82.4
PO: 7.3 on 44/50/60

95
RS: 10 on 48.6/40.7/79
PO: 8.7 on 43/45/83

96
RS: 12.5 on 49.7/38/83.2
PO: 14.3 on 46/59/68

97
RS: 14.5 on 46.7/31.4/86.8
PO: N/A

98
RS: 12.3 on 44.1/43.6/79.6
PO: 10.7 on 48/20/94

I am not going in to Sean Elliott because I did acknowledge him being a shooter. But then again, you would obviously believe that

Vinny Del Negro + Elliott + Chuck Person = Kobe + Rick Fox + Horry + Fisher
Vinny Del Negro + Elliott + Chuck Person = Kenny Smith + Maxwell + Cassell + Horry
Vinny Del Negro + Elliott + Chuck Person = Nick Anderson + pre-injury Penny + Dennis Scott

[Louae]

Chuck Person, Sean Elliott, Dale Ellis, and Vinny Del Negro (inside the arc) couldn't shoot?

Chuck Person could definately shoot. He was one guy who still had something left in the tank. Unfortunately, he wasn't with the Spurs for very long.

Dale Ellis was a very good shooter. Unfortunately, he wasn't very effective once you closed out on him. I always remembered how hard it was to get him open for a shot. You stay with Ellis or rotate to him and he'd never get a clean look.

Vinny Del Negro would never in' shoot. I hated him for that very reason. I can't tell you how many times he'd pass up shots. Brent Barry reminded me of Vinny Del Negro before this year.

And Sean Elliott was notorious for disappearing in the playoffs. His three point range was very similiar to what Bruce Bowen offers. Bruce Bowen was Sean Elliott minus the offensive game.

But I guarantee you, if David Robinson had anything like Manu Ginobilli or Tony Parker with him, he'd have won a couple of championships before Tim Duncan.

In fact, I really wish Terry mings wouldn't have torn out his knee. I really wish Willie Anderson wouldn't have needed steel rods in his legs. I really wish Rod Strickland wouldn't have broken his hand and gotten in trouble causing the FO to think he was too much of a problem to resign him. If that core would've stayed together, I honestly believed that they could've won a championship. But that's my opinion. It's not reality and never will be.

Besides Avery Johnson, what guards did DRob play with who were liabilities as outside shooters? (And Avery made up for this with his superior play in transition and his ability to get to the basket).

You really overstate Avery Johnson's ability. His greatest attribute was his leadership. You want to see Avery Johnson? He's Jauqcue Vauhn. And to be quite honest. Vauhn's jumper is better than Avery Johnson's jumper. Their ability to drive and finish are about the same in my opinion.

You really overplay the whole Robinson played with 11 garbage players around him while Hakeem/Ewing/Shaq had all these all stars angle.

You think so? I can name who played with Hakeem off the top of my head.
I can also name who played with Ewing off the top of my head and I never followed the Knicks. Why? B/c those guys performed in the playoffs. Anyone who isn't a spurs fan wouldn't be able to name who played with David Robinson those years b/c those guys never performed in the playoffs. Here's a little history on the Spurs with David Robinson before Timmy D.

89 Season: (lost in Semis to Portland (went to Finals))
Starters: Robinson, mings, Strickland, Anderson, Elliott
Top Reserves: Brickowski, Wingate

90 Season: (lost in 1st Round to Golden State)
Starters: Robinson, mings, Strickland, Anderson, Elliott
Top Reserves: Paul Pressey, David Wingate

91 Season: (lost in 1st Round to Phoenix)
Robinson didn't play in the playoffs due to injury.

92 Season: (lost in Semis to Suns (went to Finals))
Starters: Robinson, Dale Ellis, Elliott, J.R. Reid, Avery Johnson
Top Reserves: Willie Anderson, J.R. Ried, Terry mings

93 Season: (lost in 1st Round to Utah (lost to Rockets in WCFs))
Starters: Robinson, Dale Ellis, Willie Anderson, Negele Knight, Dennis Rodman
Top Reserves: Vinny Del Negro, Terry mings, J.R. Ried,

94 Season: (lost in WCF to Houston (NBA champion))
Starters: Robinson, Elliott, Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, Dennis Rodman
Top Reserves: Chuck Person, Doc Rivers, Willie Anderson, Terry mings

95 Season: (lost in Semis to Utah (lost to Sonis in WCFs))
Starters: Robinson, Elliott, Del Negro, Johnson, Person
Top Reserves: Will Perdue, Charles Smith, Cory Alexander

96 Season: Robinson, Elliott out for season

And that's it in a nuts . Robinson had Larry Brown, Jerry Tarkanian, John Lucas, Bob Bass, Bob Hill and finally Greg Popovich before Timmy D came on the scene. He had a lot to overcome. These are not excuses, but reasons. David really gets a bad rap due to his team's playoff failures.

Teams dont only scout in the postseason btw. If what you're saying is true and SA was that horrible besides #50, they wouldnt have won 50 plus games almost year in and year out in a compe ive conference.

There's a difference between playing a different team every other night with 60% of the teams being a non-playoff quality opponent & playing the same playoff quality opponent in a series every other night. After the first game, the other team's ability to execute the gameplan is many levels higher than what the same team could do in the regular season.

[ambchang]

Didn’t have time to answer the other questions, but here is the followup.

Chuck Person, Sean Elliott, Dale Ellis, and Vinny Del Negro (inside the arc) couldn't shoot?

See above.

Besides Avery Johnson, what guards did DRob play with who were liabilities as outside shooters? (And Avery made up for this with his superior play in transition and his ability to get to the basket).

Avery Johnson’s ability to get to the basket gave him a career high 13.4ppg with 3.6 FTAs, way to drive to the basket. But that doesn’t really matter, because he could only make 2.5 of those 3.6 attempts. That’s 69%. Guess what also happened that year? Robinson won the MVP by dragging that of a team to 62 wins.

You really overplay the whole Robinson played with 11 garbage players around him while Hakeem/Ewing/Shaq had all these all stars angle.

Let us look at how the teams for the 4 big men and their teammates from 1990 to 1996 (Rookie year to the last year before Robinson’s injury)
I will list it as # of all star teammates/regular season record/playoffs
1990:
Robinson – 0/56-26/WCSF
Hakeem – 0/41-41/1st round
Ewing – 0/45-37/ECSF
Shaq – N/A

1991:
Robinson – 0/55-27/1st round
Hakeem – 0/52-30/1st round
Ewing – 0/39-43/1st round
Shaq – N/A

1992:
Robinson – 0/47-35/1st round (Robinson hurt)
Hakeem – 1/42-40/missed playoffs
Ewing – 0/51-31/ECSF
Shaq – N/A

1993:
Robinson – 1/49-33/WCSF
Hakeem – 0/55-27/WCSF
Ewing – 0/60-22/ECF
Shaq – 0/41-41/missed playoffs

1994:
Robinson – 0/55-27/1st round
Hakeem – 0/58-24/Champions
Ewing – 2/57-25/Finals
Shaq – 0/50-32/1st round

1995:
Robinson – 0/62-20/WCF
Hakeem – 0/47-35/Champions
Ewing – 0/55-27/ECSF
Shaq – 1/57-25/Finals

1996:
Robinson – 1/59-23/WCSF
Hakeem – 1/48-34/WCSF
Ewing – 0/47-35/ECSF
Shaq – 1/60-22/ECF

To summarize, in the two years Robinson had an all-star teammate, his team went to the WCSF.
In the two years Hakeem had an allstar teammate, he lost in the WCSF, and missed the playoffs.
In the one year Ewing had 2 all-star teammates, his team went to the Finals.
In the 2 years Shaq had an all-star teammate (all-nba teammer Penny), his team lost in the finals and the ECF.

Teams dont only scout in the postseason btw. If what you're saying is true and SA was that horrible besides #50, they wouldnt have won 50 plus games almost year in and year out in a compe ive conference.

Of course they don’t, but they do have much more time to prepare for a game plan in the playoffs. So you have 1 day to prepare for a team, what do you do? You send scouting reports out to the players, perhaps watch some tape, and practice.
You have two weeks? You design an offense and defense that exploits your opponent’s weakness.

[mqywaaah]

Easy. Because gorillas arent considered soft. End of discussion. Next thread!

[bobbyjoe]

Didn’t have time to answer the other questions, but here is the followup.

See above.


Avery Johnson’s ability to get to the basket gave him a career high 13.4ppg with 3.6 FTAs, way to drive to the basket. But that doesn’t really matter, because he could only make 2.5 of those 3.6 attempts. That’s 69%. Guess what also happened that year? Robinson won the MVP by dragging that of a team to 62 wins.



Let us look at how the teams for the 4 big men and their teammates from 1990 to 1996 (Rookie year to the last year before Robinson’s injury)
I will list it as # of all star teammates/regular season record/playoffs
1990:
Robinson – 0/56-26/WCSF
Hakeem – 0/41-41/1st round
Ewing – 0/45-37/ECSF
Shaq – N/A

1991:
Robinson – 0/55-27/1st round
Hakeem – 0/52-30/1st round
Ewing – 0/39-43/1st round
Shaq – N/A

1992:
Robinson – 0/47-35/1st round (Robinson hurt)
Hakeem – 1/42-40/missed playoffs
Ewing – 0/51-31/ECSF
Shaq – N/A

1993:
Robinson – 1/49-33/WCSF
Hakeem – 0/55-27/WCSF
Ewing – 0/60-22/ECF
Shaq – 0/41-41/missed playoffs

1994:
Robinson – 0/55-27/1st round
Hakeem – 0/58-24/Champions
Ewing – 2/57-25/Finals
Shaq – 0/50-32/1st round

1995:
Robinson – 0/62-20/WCF
Hakeem – 0/47-35/Champions
Ewing – 0/55-27/ECSF
Shaq – 1/57-25/Finals

1996:
Robinson – 1/59-23/WCSF
Hakeem – 1/48-34/WCSF
Ewing – 0/47-35/ECSF
Shaq – 1/60-22/ECF

To summarize, in the two years Robinson had an all-star teammate, his team went to the WCSF.
In the two years Hakeem had an allstar teammate, he lost in the WCSF, and missed the playoffs.
In the one year Ewing had 2 all-star teammates, his team went to the Finals.
In the 2 years Shaq had an all-star teammate (all-nba teammer Penny), his team lost in the finals and the ECF.


Of course they don’t, but they do have much more time to prepare for a game plan in the playoffs. So you have 1 day to prepare for a team, what do you do? You send scouting reports out to the players, perhaps watch some tape, and practice.
You have two weeks? You design an offense and defense that exploits your opponent’s weakness.

Are you even reading what you are posting?

Hakeem won 2 les in 94 and 95 without an all star alongside him. This helps your argument?!

It all boils down to this: If you think David Robinson was a better Center than Shaq or Hakeem, you may as well call Robinson the best basketball player ever or the best pro athlete in the history of time, because each statement is as utterly ludicrous.

Robinson can not hold a candle to those 2 or Kareem, Wilt, etc. THere's a clear cut distinction between him and the truly elite centers of all time. Any all time Center list shows this. None have Robinson in the top 7 or 8.

[SRJ]

What was Clyde Drexler?

[samikeyp]

Robinson can not hold a candle to those 2 or Kareem, Wilt, etc. THere's a clear cut distinction between him and the truly elite centers of all time. Any all time Center list shows this. None have Robinson in the top 7 or 8.

This one does...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailyd...reatestCenters


I don't think David is a top 5 all-time center but people here are talking as if he was some scrub. I understand there is a lot of hate toward him solely because he was a Spur but to act as if he did nothing in his career is just ignorant. Top 5? No. Top 10? definetly. He must have done something right....he was named on the top 50 all time and is headed for the Hall of Fame. Something else I imagine the haters will have issue with.