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Tight Gun Control Laws don't seem to be doing much good in Mexico.
Well the guy had a vest on, so I doubt armed students would have done much, hitting a human moving head is a lot harder than it seems.
Even if campus police were there I bet it would have been the north hollywood shootout #2. They really should carry larger calibre rounds on person without having to get the shottie from the patrol car or call in SWAT.
Tight Gun Control Laws don't seem to be doing much good in Mexico.
Well fire, ropes, ect are used for a lot of things, guns are used only for killing. And maybe turning off appliances from a distance.
Yeah, big problem when looking at this is statistical conclusivness to causation is an invalid arguement since the murder rate is dependant on more than gun availability.
The widely cited source is the UK vs Switzerland. UK has ultra strict rules, the other allows fully automatic rifles. The UK murder rate is much higher, but then they are two totally different places, the Switzerland rate would be lower with or without laws.
The gov't is also very bad at tracking gun stats, it's almost all third party stats based on extrapolation.
No...guns are you used for defending yourself, not killing, defending yourself, that is why they are in The Cons ution. And feeding yourself...like a fishing rod, or a supermarket.
The majority of American Gun Owners, don't kill anyone with them...
You would punish them and take away their right to defend themselves, because criminals abuse them...what don't criminals abuse?
There's no logic...
Guns allow a smaller person to defend themselves against a larger person. Like a woman, against a rapist, or a man, against a gang of muggers.
I know they made a lot of drugs illegal...
That sure did solve our drug problem.
Cars kill more people than guns, and they pollute...we should make them illegal, make every one get on a bus.
Yearly in the United States
Guns used in self defense: 64,615
Assaulter shot 29% of the time by the victim
Guns used for cide: 46,319
Guns used nonfatally in crime (intimidation, ect): 2,628,532
53% of suicides used a handgun last year.
Interesting study showed that criminals will still commit a robbery, but with less lethal weapons in the absence of guns. In areas of a city with easier access to guns versus areas with difficult access, robbery rates were the same, with criminals unable to afford or obtain a guns opting to rob with fake guns or knives. Stabbing attacks are fatal 30% of the time to the heart while gunshots from small calibre rounds are fatal 83% of the time to the same area.
And the second amendment isn't for self-defense, it is there so that the federal gov't can't disarm the people when it fears revolution, as confirmed by United States v. Cruikshank and dozens of state laws on gun control.
By the way I'm for gun control not gun banning. Total disarmament is unrealistic, the goal is restrictions so that the sociopath killers can't walk into Wal-Mart and get what they want. And yes, more restrictions do help, these cidal maniacs are just as lazy as you and me, many of them aren't going to go looking for black markets because they are ultra-determined. Same reason the sheer outlawing of drugs is a restriction. Yes, the determined will still get what they want, but the determined make up the minority of people.
I'm out for now, night.
Sorry but I don't agree with that very narrow definition of the right to bear arms...
But the point you made is good enough to prove mine...you take the guns away and it's something the GOVT has that the people do not...the framers were trying to avoid that situation. A GOVT more powerful and by that definition better than it's people.
And it's not like Governments are going to be free from corruption just because the people don't have guns.
Stick this in your pipe and smoke it Sabar:
From the United Human Rights Council:
"Beginning on April 6, 1994, and for the next hundred days, up to 800,000 Tutsis were killed by Hutu militia using clubs and machetes, with as many as 10,000 killed each day."
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Gen..._in_rwanda.htm
We have not had that amount of killing in the West because of the remnants of Christian Civilization that holds us together. As men become more savage you will see the stuff going on in Africa going on here. Maybe not now, but in another 50 years or earlier.
I want to defend myself Sabar. Thank you very much!!
All you'd do is create a blackmarket for guns that dwarves what exists now...
Taking away freedoms and rights, doesn't stop anything...it just creates corruption.
Hmmm...you think this guy got his guns via the black market?
Back.
Playing devil's advocate on gun control is a pain, so much contradictory statistics and evidence.
If the guy had a clean record before he'd have no reason to use a black market, but I don't know what kinda deals you can get on it. Plus a risk of a sting.
Why does murder seem worse (to some) when committed by gun? Is a murder victim made any more dead when killed with a bullet?
Isn't it obvious. Murder is worse by number. Guns make it a lot easier for psychos to act out their 'revenge on world' plan.
This guy couldn't have carried out his massacre on students with a knife. Firearms, explosives. DO make murder more tragic.
Obviously the solution here is to ban murder. Banning something is apparently what makes it go away - so my vote goes to banning murder.
I don't know, but I do know people do pretty good with
bombs over there. And as far as I know they are banned
by law.
Of course Ireland had a problem with guns, but they blamed
America for that and still do. But they were also banned
there, they just forgot to tell the IRA and Protestants about
the little law.
There in lies the problem with firearm prohibition. Somehow the criminals never get the memo.
There is nothing in the Bill of Rights (the first 10 amendments) that is outdated. Not then, not now, not ever. Period.
Those amendments were written with an eye toward all future generations. They can be molded, they can be adapted, but they cannot, will not be terminated.
They are inalienable rights. Rights given to any and all born in this country. This is not a debate, its a standard.
Arguing otherwise opens doors for the other 9 amendments to be terminated.
Exactly. And to say that we will never need another revolution in this country is beyond ridiculous. Who's to say what tomorrow holds?
Hitler and Stalin were anti-gun.
News is saying they found shooters gun receipt.
australia had a gun buyback scheme in the 90s, and it did pretty well minimizing the amount in society.....
wat you gotto do is stop ppl from getting access to one....but in america its very difficult since ur borders are not protected.
wait......democrats are anti-gun. that must mean that dems are like Stalin and Hitler. OMGZZZ, I'm voting Republican 4evaz
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18148802/
Authorities ID gunman in Va. Tech rampage
Student’s writings raised red flags; 33 killed, 12 stable in hospitals
Virginia Tech
Cho Seung-Hui, who immigrated to the United States at age 8 in 1992, lived in Centreville, Va., a suburb of Washington.
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MSNBC and NBC News
Updated: 4 minutes ago
BLACKSBURG, Va. - A 23-year-old senior from South Korea whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school’s counseling service was behind the massacre of 30 people locked inside a university classroom building in the deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history, the university said Tuesday.
Ballistics tests also found that one of the guns used in that attack was also used in a shooting two hours earlier at a dormitory that left two people dead at Virginia Polytechnic Ins ute and State University, Virginia State Police said.
Police identified the shooter as Cho Seung-Hui (pronounced Choh Suhng-whee), of Centreville, Va., who was a senior in the English Department at Virginia Tech. Cho, a resident alien who immigrated to the United States from South Korea in 1992, lived on campus in Harper Residence Hall.
The bloodbath ended with Cho’s suicide, bringing the death toll from two separate shootings — first at the dormitory, then in a classroom building — to 33 and stamping the campus in the picturesque Blue Ridge Mountains with unspeakable tragedy.
Note listed gunman’s grievances
Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university’s English department, said she did not personally know the gunman. But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department’s director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as “troubled.”
“There was some concern about him,” Rude told The Associated Press. “Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it’s creative or if they’re describing things, if they’re imagining things or just how real it might be. But we’re all alert to not ignore things ike this.”
She said Cho was referred to the counseling service, but she said she did not know when or what the outcome was. Rude refused to release any of his writings or his grades, citing privacy laws.
NBC News’ Pete Williams reported that police had found a note in which Cho listed “random grievances,” but few other details were immediately available. That seemed in keeping for a young man who apparently left little impression in the Virginia Tech community.
Cho’s fellow residents of Harper Hall said few people knew the gunman, who kept to himself.
“He can’t have been an outgoing kind of person,” Meredith Daly, 19, of Danville, Va., told MSNBC.com’s Bill Dedman.
Stephen Scott, a freshman engineering student from Marlton, N.J., said police and FBI agents went through the dorm Monday night showing a picture of Cho and trying to find anybody who recognized or knew him. He did not know whether they were successful.
‘Very quiet, always by himself’
In Centreville, a suburb of Washington where Cho’s family lived in an off-white, two-story townhouse, people who knew Cho concurred that he kept to himself.
“He was very quiet, always by himself,” said Abdul Shash, a neighbor. Shash said Cho spent a lot of his free time playing basketball and would not respond if someone greeted him. He described the family as quiet.
Rod Wells, a postal worker, said that characterization of Cho did not fit the man’s parents, who, he described as “always polite, always kind to me, very quiet, always smiling. Just sweet, sweet people.”
“I talk to particularly everybody here,” Wells told NBC News. “So I guess nobody had any intimation that he was like that. I don’t think the parents did, because they were quite the opposite.”
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Cho graduated in 2003 from Westfield High School in Chantilly, Va., said Jack Dale, superintendent of the Fairfax County schools.
“I want to express the devastation that we in Fairfax County Public Schools all feel about the news from Blacksburg,” Dale said in a statement. “... This is a time for families and friends to grieve.”
Dale said the school system had called in psychologists and social workers to work with students and employees who may have been affected by “these terrible events.”
South Korea’s Foreign Ministry expressed its condolences, saying that there was no known motive for the shootings and that South Korea hoped the tragedy would not “stir up racial prejudice or confrontation.”
Ballistics evidence points to student
Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of the Virginia State Police, said it was reasonable to assume that Cho was the shooter in both attacks but that the link was not yet definitive.
“There’s no evidence of any accomplice at either event, but we’re exploring the possibility,” he said.
Two law enforcement officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been officially announced, said Cho’s fingerprints were found on the two guns used in the shootings. The serial numbers had been filed off, the officials said.
Law enforcement officials told NBC News that Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for the purchase of a Glock 9mm pistol in March. As a permanent legal resident, Cho was eligible to buy a handgun unless he had been convicted of any felony criminal charges.
Cho renewed his green card in late 2003 and would have undergone a background check at that time, immigration officials told NBC affiliate WSLS-TV of Roanoke. If a criminal record had shown up then, officials would have denied the renewal, they said.
At least 26 people were taken to hospitals after the second attack, some of them seriously injured. Twelve students remained in hospitals in stable condition Tuesday, and most were expected to be released soon, NBC News’ Mic e Kosinski reported from Montgomery Regional Medical Center.
After the shootings, all campus entrances were closed, and classes were canceled for the rest of the week. The university set up a spot for families to reunite with their children.
President Bush planned to attend a memorial service Tuesday afternoon at the university’s football stadium, the White House said, and Gov. Timothy Kaine was flying back to Virginia from Tokyo for the 2 p.m. convocation.
‘He didn’t say a single word’
Wielding two handguns and carrying multiple clips of ammunition, Cho opened fire about 7:15 a.m. on the fourth floor of West Ambler Johnston, a high-rise coeducational dorm, then stormed Norris Hall, a classroom building a half-mile away on the other side of the 2,600-acre campus. Some of the doors at Norris Hall were found chained from the inside, apparently by the gunman.
Two people died in a dorm room, and 31 others were killed in Norris Hall, including Cho, who put a bullet in his head.
Students jumped from windows in panic.
Trey Perkins, who was sitting in a German class in Norris Hall, told MSNBC-TV on Monday that the gunman barged into the room about 9:50 a.m. and opened fire for about a minute and a half, squeezing off 20 to 30 shots.
The gunman first shot the professor in the head and then fired on the students, Perkins said, who added: “He didn’t say a single word the whole time.”
“He didn’t say, ‘Get down.’ He didn’t say anything. He just started shooting,” said Perkins, 20, of Yorktown, Va., a sop re studying mechanical engineering. “I got on the ground, and I was just thinking, like, there’s no way I’m going to survive this. All I could keep thinking of was my mom.”
CONTINUED: Students angry at university’s response
Students angry at university’s response
Students said there were no public-address announcements after the first shots. Many said they learned of the first shooting in an e-mail message that arrived shortly before the gunman struck again.
University President Charles Steger defended the university’s conduct, saying authorities believed that the shooting at the dorm was a domestic dispute and mistakenly thought the gunman had fled the campus.
Steger emphasized that the university closed off the dorm after the first attack and decided to rely on e-mail and other electronic means to spread the word, but he said that with 11,000 people driving onto campus first thing in the morning, it was difficult to get the word out.
He said that before the e-mail went out, the university began telephoning resident advisers in the dorms and sent people to knock on doors. Students were warned to stay inside and away from the windows.
“We can only make decisions based on the information you had at the time. You don’t have hours to reflect on it,” Steger said.
Previous rampages
Until Monday, the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history was in Killeen, Texas, in 1991, when George Hennard drove his pickup truck into a Luby’s Cafeteria and shot 23 people to death, then himself.
The massacre Monday took place four days before the eighth anniversary of the Columbine High School bloodbath near Littleton, Colo. On April 20, 1999, two teenagers killed 12 fellow students and a teacher before taking their own lives.
Previously, the deadliest campus shooting in U.S. history was a rampage in 1966 at the University of Texas at Austin, where Charles Whitman climbed the clock tower and opened fire. He killed 16 people before police shot him to death.
Police said that there had been bomb threats on campus over the past two weeks but that they had not determined a link to the shootings.
It was second time in less than a year that the campus was closed because of a shooting.
In August, the opening day of classes was canceled when an escaped jail inmate allegedly killed a hospital guard off campus and fled to the Tech area. A sheriff’s deputy was killed just off campus. The accused gunman, William Morva, faces capital murder charges.
At a hastily arranged service Monday night at Blacksburg Presbyterian Church, the Rev. Susan Verbrugge gazed out at about 150 bowed heads.
“Death has come trundling into our life, a sudden and savage en y laying waste to our hearts and making desolate our minds,” Verbrugge said during a prayer. “We need now the consolation only you can give.”
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