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  1. #51
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
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    wow...


    hmm... joch?


    Yeah, I switched to watching the game, and then off to bed.

  2. #52
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
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    David Phillips is still a student.
    Which means that he's still learning...that's a slam? I hope all of those studying some form of creation are still learning (students if you will)

    And that makes him unknowledgeable and unlearned in his field, how?

    David Phillips - He has a B.A. in Physical Anthropology with minors in Biology and Geology from the California State University of Northridge (CSUN) and a M.A. in Paleoanthropology with highest honors from CSUN as well. Professor Phillipps is pursuing his Ph.D. in Paleontology. He is professor of physical sciences at the Masters College and works at the Paleontology lab for the La Brea Tar Pits.
    Tell me again how these credentials disqualify him from assisting in the study of creation?

    Off to work

  3. #53
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Wow, yeah, you've totally destroyed each faculty member's credibility, and you've done it basically using only one sentence per member!!

    A puzzle is complete when all of the pieces are put together Stout. In much the same way each faculty member of IRC contributes his expertise to a common cause.
    What's laughable (ridiculous) is you isolating them into separate en iies as if each of them are on an island working towards their conclusions alone.

    You are light years away from proving your assertion that "they are not knowledgeable" and they are not "learned in their field".

    I won't pretend to be convulsing from laughter as you did, but it's quite disappointing to see a poster of your stature resort to blanket condemnations, and then show what amounts to nothing to support your charges.


    BTW, have you lied to anyone about anything in, say, the last 3 years?
    (I'll bet you know what's coming if you admit to this)
    Sure, linguists, psychologists and engineers are critical to doing pure scientific research in geology, biology, and cosmology. Perhaps they should add a political scientist, or an MBA, or a dentist, to "contribute" to the "common cause."

    And I will step back from my assertion that those guys are unlearned in their field, despite the preponderance of obvious errors in their research that only fools would fall for. It is possible that some of them are quite expert in their field, and are intentionally engaging in deceit for theological-ideological reasons.

    Either way, they are liars and frauds. I feel sorry for you that you take them seriously. ICR has no more credibility than a 9/11 conspiracy website.

    Wow, yeah, you've totally destroyed each faculty member's credibility, and you've done it basically using only one sentence per member!!
    That it only takes one sentence to discredit them speaks to the credulity of those who believe them.

    They post these CV's on their site to trump up their "academic credentials," thinking that the sheer length will impress somebody, but then when you actually take a look at them, about 80% of it is garbage. By their standard, you could list the academic credentials of Political Forum posters and make this look like some kind of expert seminar.

    Ironically, most everybody in this forum probably has the basic scientific knowledge to realize what a load of crap the "evolution violates the Second Law" and "maybe God created light in-transit" arguments are. To a person with any intellectual honesty whatsoever, those kind of reaches end the argument. They are risible, no matter how many papers the arguer has published.

    Which means that he's still learning...that's a slam? I hope all of those studying some form of creation are still learning (students if you will)

    And that makes him unknowledgeable and unlearned in his field, how?
    College students are not academic experts.

  4. #54
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Why would I discredit Einstein just because I disagree with his theology, and believe in a personal God instead?
    As do I.... the point being YECs (young earth creationists) have chosen to believe in a literal GOD of Genesis. That's their perogative. You can say that they are misguided, you can say that they are wrong. But the arrogance with which you've plucked some of their credibilities is misplaced. They seek that which can't be explained in a manner consistent with the scientific method and they can't see past that mismatch of concepts. That does not make them liars.

    For the reason explained in my earlier post however, GOD has not openly revealed every detail about Creation. That does not mean that Genesis is false, or that He is not the Creator of the Universe. So although 'proof 'may not exist as apparent as a blinking "Las Vegas" sign Creation nevertheless points and glorifies its Creator - the Bible says this much. Having said that, I have a problem when people refer to scientific observations that reveal creation's design and purpose as 'pseudoscience' - the prefix implying it should be outright dismissed. This is a grossly misapplied term that undermines a greater Truth - that GOD is in fact the almighty Creator.

    I personally know at least 50 or so molecular biologists that I've run into over the course of the years which have a big problem accepting the biological leaps that are required to accept random evolution. Most of them educated in M.I.T, Harvard, John Hopkins or Stanford, and most of them willing to tell you that the widely accepted, and generally overlooked implications of natural 'origins' are mathematically impossible. Can a natural spontaneous origin of life be proven? No, because human involvement and inherent interaction in such a study would negate the study's conclusions. Thus if the mainstream notion can't be proven, how is it people aren't as averted to classifying it as SCIENCE? Talk about agendas - they certainly go both ways.
    Last edited by Phenomanul; 05-04-2007 at 09:18 AM.

  5. #55
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    As do I.... the point being YECs (young earth creationists) have chosen to believe in a literal GOD of Genesis. That's their perogative. You can say that they are misguided, you can say that they are wrong. But the arrogance with which you've plucked some of their credibilities is misplaced. They seek that which can't be explained in a manner consistent with the scientific method and they can't see past that mismatch of concepts. That does not make them liars.
    Einstein did not manipulate his research in order to fit his personal view of God. That is where the ICR people fall into utter intellectual dishonesty.

    Nor did he have his CV printed on handbills to hand out to people so they would take him seriously. His credibility spoke for itself.

    For the reason explained in my earlier post however, GOD has not openly revealed every detail about Creation. That does not mean that Genesis is false, or that He is not the Creator of the Universe. So although 'proof 'may not exist as apparent as a blinking "Las Vegas" sign Creation nevertheless points and glorifies its Creator - the Bible says this much. Having said that, I have a problem when people refer to scientific observations that reveal creation's design and purpose as 'pseudoscience' - the prefix implying it should be outright dismissed. This is a grossly misapplied term that undermines a greater Truth - that GOD is in fact the almighty Creator.
    A person certainly can make an observation in the natural world, and relate it to his belief about God. Just about everybody does this, I think. You can even formulate an argument to persuade others towards your beliefs based upon natural observations.

    All that is fine. It is normal. But it is theology. It is philosophy. It is not science. It is perfectly OK for it not to be science. We in the West have this hang-up about science being the only valid form of learning and study. It isn't.

    Where it becomes pseudoscience is when people claim that some observation offers "scientific proof" of their belief, or unbelief in God. It is baloney when ICR does it. It is baloney when Richard Dawkins does it.

    I personally know at least 50 or so molecular biologists that I've run into over the course of the years which have a big problem accepting the biological leaps required for believing in random evolution. Most of them educated in M.I.T, Harvard, John Hopkins or Stanford, and most of them willing to tell you that the widely accepted, and generally overlooked implications of natural 'origins' are mathematically impossible. Can a natural spontaneous origin of life be proven? No, because human involvement and inherent interaction in such a study would negate the study's conclusions. Thus if the mainstream notion can't be proven, how is it people aren't as averted to classifying it as SCIENCE? Talk about agendas - they certainly go both ways.
    As I think I've stated for years, evolution does not attempt to describe how life began on Earth. That is a separate theory, called abiogenesis, which is much, much weaker, for the reasons you state, as well as others.

    Yes, it is difficult to believe that the conditions necessary for life to generate itself occurred by chance.

    Yes, it is difficult to believe that the "fine-tuning" necessary for matter as we know it to exist in the Standard Model to occur by chance.

    And the explanations offered by non-theists and skeptics, like the anthropic principle, are not science any more than something like intelligent design is. They are philosophical/theological inductive arguments.

    But that line of debate is totally different from what ICR does. How on earth is it "scientific research" to first select a Bible hermeneutic based upon nothing more than personal belief, and then force all hypotheses to fit that hermeneutic? How is that credible? Did I miss the part where they conclusively proved that a strictly literalist reading of Genesis is the correct one?

  6. #56
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Well ES you left me at the gate many post ago. So I will bow out
    of any further discussion. Just assert one more time, I think
    opposing views should be heard. In science or everyday life.
    But seems as though, especially on college campus, that it is not
    possible to submit or discuss an opposing view. At least we do
    have our forum to do just that....even lay persons have views/
    opinions.

  7. #57
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Einstein did not manipulate his research in order to fit his personal view of God. That is where the ICR people fall into utter intellectual dishonesty.

    Nor did he have his CV printed on handbills to hand out to people so they would take him seriously. His credibility spoke for itself.
    What's funny is that Einstein's research was never in a position to find proof of GOD's existence. That was never his motive. His eventual belief in a Deity came about from noting that everything else he knew about our Universe was too perfect to exist uncreated. That the language of the Universe (Math) was too unique to exist undefined.

    A person certainly can make an observation in the natural world, and relate it to his belief about God. Just about everybody does this, I think. You can even formulate an argument to persuade others towards your beliefs based upon natural observations.

    All that is fine. It is normal. But it is theology. It is philosophy. It is not science. It is perfectly OK for it not to be science. We in the West have this hang-up about science being the only valid form of learning and study. It isn't.

    Where it becomes pseudoscience is when people claim that some observation offers "scientific proof" of their belief, or unbelief in God. It is baloney when ICR does it. It is baloney when Richard Dawkins does it.
    Well this is certainly the biggest concern because this is exactly what the public schools are pushing on our students. You end up with people who can't tell the difference between the unprovable, percieved truth and Absolute Truth. Those who fail to see the limitations of science and try to claim that their 'superior' methods explain everything - even when they haven't got a clue about what they are talking about. Or people who equivocally believe that one's belief in GOD is an immediate 'handicap' to logic - and that this somehow discredits anything else they happen to say.

    As I think I've stated for years, evolution does not attempt to describe how life began on Earth. That is a separate theory, called abiogenesis, which is much, much weaker, for the reasons you state, as well as others.

    Yes, it is difficult to believe that the conditions necessary for life to generate itself occurred by chance.

    Yes, it is difficult to believe that the "fine-tuning" necessary for matter as we know it to exist in the Standard Model to occur by chance.

    And the explanations offered by non-theists and skeptics, like the anthropic principle, are not science any more than something like intelligent design is. They are philosophical/theological inductive arguments.

    But that line of debate is totally different from what ICR does. How on earth is it "scientific research" to first select a Bible hermeneutic based upon nothing more than personal belief, and then force all hypotheses to fit that hermeneutic? How is that credible? Did I miss the part where they conclusively proved that a strictly literalist reading of Genesis is the correct one?
    I can agree with most of this.
    Last edited by Phenomanul; 05-04-2007 at 11:08 PM.

  8. #58
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Dude, this is the thread that defines the very- ing-word of OWNAGE!!!1!!11!!!

    Wow.

  9. #59
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Instant. Classic.

  10. #60
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
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    Andrew Snelling attempted to invalidate the potassium-argon radiometric dating method by analyzing New Zealand lava flows less than 60 years old at the Geochron lab.

    The Geochron lab readily admits that their methods are invalid for any samples expected to be less than 2 million years old, because of the contaminating effect of atmospheric argon.

    So either Dr. Snelling has serious lapses in knowledge basic to his field, or maybe he is engaging in intentional deception. Either way, liar and fraud.
    And that in a nuts is what Snelling's known for? How pompous of you to summarily dismiss his achievements and research based upon that point. It takes very little effort to see beyond the generic vitriolic rhetoric you've spewed forth about him and other faculty at ICR.
    What stands out in your post(s) is that you have proverbially "judged books by their cover (congratulations!).
    Unfortunately Snelling's not able to counter your lambasting. I imagine he'd make you look like quite a buffoon.


    Here's a more complete resume' for Snelling. Perhaps you'd care to research him and his work thoroughly (and while you're at it, all of the others you've attempted to take to task) so as to critique him in a fair manner instead of a shameful two sentence rebuke replete with juvenile name calling.




    Andrew A. Snelling

    Research
    » Scientists in the Physical Sciences
    » Scientists in the Biological Sciences
    » Scientist List FAQ
    Andrew A. Snelling, Ph.D. Geology

    Education:
    B.S. Applied Geology, University of New South Wales, Sydney, AUS - 1975
    Ph.D. Geology, University of Sydney, Sydney, AUS - 1982

    Organizations:
    Geological Society of Australia
    Australasian Ins ute of Mining and Metallurgy
    Geological Society of America
    Geological Association of Canada
    Mineralogical Society of America
    Society of Economic Geologists
    Society for Geology Applied to Mineral Deposits
    International Association of Geochemistry and Cosmochemistry
    Association of Exploration Geochemists
    Australian Society of Exploration Geophysicists

    Professional Experience:
    1971-1975 Trainee geologist with Geopeko Limited in field locations and mine sites around Australia - Tennant Creek (Northern Territory), King Island (Tasmania), and Parkes-Wellington (New South Wales).
    1975-1978 Tutor in geology, Department of Geology and Geophysics, the University of Sydney, instructing and assisting undergraduate students in geology laboratory and practical classes.
    1979-1981 Field geologist for CRA Exploration Pty Ltd based in Darwin (Northern Territory) with responsibility for mineral exploration surveys and projects throughout northern and central Australia.
    1981-1983 Project geologist for Denison Australia Pty Ltd with full geological responsibility for the Koongarra uranium mine development in east Arnhem Land, Northern Territory.
    1983-1992 Consultant research geologist for Denison Australia Pty Ltd for their Koongarra uranium mine project, and for the Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organization and the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission on their internationally-funded project on the geology and geochemistry of the Koongarra uranium deposit as an analogue of a high-level nuclear waste disposal site.

    Publications: (partial list)
    1. Snelling, A., and B.L. son, Uranium daughter disequilibrium in the Koongarra uranium deposit, Australia, Mineralium Deposita, 14, pp. 109-118, 1979.

    2. Snelling, A.A., Pitchblende and its alteration products, Koongarra uranium deposit, International Uranium Symposium on the Pine Creek Geosyncline, Extended Abstracts, pp. 188-191, 1979.

    3. son, B.L. and A.A. Snelling, Uranium daughter isotopes movements in the Koongarra uranium deposit, International Uranium Symposium on the Pine Creek Geosyncline, Extended Abstracts, pp. 57-60, 1979.

    4. Snelling, A.A., Uraninite and its alteration products, Koongarra uranium deposit, Uranium in the Pine Creek Geosyncline, J. Ferguson and A.B. Goleby (editors), International Atomic Energy Agency, Vienna, pp. 487-498, 1980.

    5. son, B.L., and A.A. Snelling, Movements of uranium and daughter isotopes in the Koongarra uranium deposit, Uranium in the Pine Creek Geosyncline, J. Ferguson and A.B. Goleby (editors), International Atomic Energy Agency, Vienna, pp. 499-507, 1980.

    6. Giblin, A.M., and A.A. Snelling, Application of hydrogeochemistry to uranium exploration in the Pine Creek Geosyncline, Northern Territory, Australia, Journal of Geochemical Exploration, 19, pp. 33-55, 1983.

    7. Snelling, A.A., A soil geochemistry orientation survey for uranium at Koongarra, Northern Territory, Journal of Geochemical Exploration, 22, pp. 83-99, 1984.

    8. Mackay, J.B., and A.A. Snelling, The 1980 Mount St Helens eruption: The role of volcanism in the formation of coal beds ( A modern analogue of ancient coal measure formation), Proceedings of the 18th Symposium on Advances in the Study of the Sydney Basin, Department of Geology, University of Newcastle, New South Wales, pp. 95-97, 1984.

    9. son, B.L., B.L. Gulson, and A.A. Snelling, Evaluation of lead isotopic methods for uranium exploration, Koongarra area, Northern Territory, Australia, Journal of Geochemical Exploration, 24, pp. 81-102, 1985.

    10. Snelling, A.A., and J.B. Mackay, Evidence of catastrophic deposition of coals and sediments of the Newcastle coal measures, Proceedings of the 19th Symposium on Advances in the Study of the Sydney Basin, Department of Geology, University of Newcastle, New South Wales, pp. 110-113, 1985.

    11. Snelling, A.A., and J.B. Mackay, The role of volcanism in the rapid formation of coal seams: The Walloon Coal Measures of Queensland and New South Wales - A case study, Proceedings of the 1985 International Conference on Coal Science, Pergamon Press, Sydney, p. 641, 1985.

    12. Gole, M.J., C.R.M. Butt, and A.A. Snelling, A groundwater helium survey of the Koongarra uranium deposits, Pine Creek Geosyncline, Northern Territory, Uranium, 2, pp. 343-360, 1986.

    13. Airey, P.L., P. Duerden, D. Roman, C. Golian, T. Nightingale, T. Payne, B.G. Davey, D. Gray, A.A. Snelling, and D. Lever, Koongarra ore body: A natural analogue of radionuclide migration in the far field of high level radioactive waste repositories, Natural Analogue Working Group, First Meeting, Commission of European Communities, Report ERU10315 EN-FR, Brussells, pp. 175-216, 1986.

    14. son, B.L., B.L. Gulson, and A.A. Snelling, Further assessment of stable lead isotope measurements for uranium exploration, Pine Creek Geosyncline, Northern Territory, Australia, Journal of Geochemical Exploration, 27, pp. 63-75, 1987.

    15. son, B.L., A.M. Giblin, and A.A. Snelling, The source of radium in anomalous ac ulations near sandstone escarpments, Australia, Applied Geochemistry, 2, 385-398, 1987.

    16. Airey, P.L., P. Duerden, D. Roman, C. Golian, T. Nightingale, T Payne, B.G. Davey, D. Gray, A.A. Snelling, and D. Lever, The predication of the long-term migration of radionuclides in the far field of high level waste repositories: Results from the Alligator Rivers Natural Analogue Study, Geological Disposal of High Level Radioactive Waste, B.G. Brookins (editor), Theophrastus Publications, S.A., Athens, Greece, pp. 507-524, 1987.

    17. Snelling, A.A., Koongarra uranium deposits, Geology of the Mineral Deposits of Australia and Papua New Guinea, F.E. Hughes (editor), The Australasian Ins ute of Mining and Metallurgy, Melbourne, Monograph 14, pp. 807-812, 1990.

    18. Snelling, A.A., Geologic setting, Alligator Rivers Analogue Project Final Report, OECD/NEA International Project, Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organization, Sydney, Volume 2, 118pp., 1992.

    19. Edis, R., L. Cao, J. Cashion, D. Klessa, A.J. Koppi, T. Murakami, T Nightingale, T. Payne, A.A. Snelling, and N. Yanase, Chemistry and Mineralogy of Rocks and Soils, Alligator Rivers Analogue Project Final Report, OECD/NEA International Project, Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organization, Sydney, Volume 8, 255pp., 1992.

    20. Austin, S.A., A.A. Snelling and K.P. Wise, Canyon-length mass kill of orothocone nautiloids, Redwall Limestone (Mississippian) Grand Canyon, Arizona, Abstracts with Programs, Geological Society of America Annual Meeting, Denver, Colorado, p. A-421, 1999.

    http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=...hysci_snelling

  11. #61
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
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    Dude, this is the thread that defines the very- ing-word of OWNAGE!!!1!!11!!!

    Wow.
    As Extra Stout told you once before, "you have a very low standard for ownage".

  12. #62
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]
    Either way, they are liars and frauds. I feel sorry for you that you take them seriously. ICR has no more credibility than a 9/11 conspiracy website.
    Please tell me where I stated that I have bought into their philosophy? I merely took exception to your labeling them as "unlearned in their field", and "not knowledgable".
    Add to that the blanket statement that they are "liars and frauds".



    That it only takes one sentence to discredit them speaks to the credulity of those who believe them.
    Come back to the table when you have thorough knowledge of each of the faculty members knowledge, reasearch, employment, peer reviewed articles, education, etc.

    Until you've done that it's only in your own mind that you discredited them with one sentence.

  13. #63
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
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    Joch, where do you stand in the debate the Earth is 6 billion years old vs the Earth is 6 thousand years old?

  14. #64
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
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    Joch, where do you stand in the debate the Earth is 6 billion years old vs the Earth is 6 thousand years old?
    Hey smeagol. I would state that I stand somewhere in the middle, but my pos on would probably be best described as one of ambivalence. My purpose or reason for living doesn't require the formation of a concrete stance on the subject.

    With that being said, I will defer to the experts on that issue and let them go at it as I have not put in the amount of time and study that I feel is necessary to formulate an independently, educated opinion.

    Whichever.

  15. #65
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Please tell me where I stated that I have bought into their philosophy? I merely took exception to your labeling them as "unlearned in their field", and "not knowledgable".
    Add to that the blanket statement that they are "liars and frauds".




    Come back to the table when you have thorough knowledge of each of the faculty members knowledge, reasearch, employment, peer reviewed articles, education, etc.

    Until you've done that it's only in your own mind that you discredited them with one sentence.
    I already gave an alternative to the "not knowledgable" notion. Go back and read.

    If indeed these men are so distinguished, why then do they make errors an undergraduate would catch in their creation science "research"?

    That to me would be like Stephen Hawking declaring that 2 + 2 = 5, and then when somebody points out that is obviously wrong, for Hawking to point to his long list of accomplishments.

    His accomplishments don't matter in that case. He would be wrong in saying 2 + 2 = 5 , and if he stuck to it, it would harm his credibility. A person would not need "thorough knowledge" of his career to say that. Your contention is nothing but a dodge and a red herring worthy of Nbadan.

    In this case, these scholars have an axe to grind in promulgating these errors. That makes them intellectually dishonest, which makes them frauds on the subject of creation. They may be just marvelous assets to the world of science in nuclear physics or meteorlogy or whatever their field is. But on this subject, they have switched off their brains because the facts don't fit their own ideas about God.

  16. #66
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    They can make up the truth as they go along. Print and publish. How easy is that. Write it down and agree to believe. You don't have to prove something is right when it can't be proven wrong. Just ring the dinner bell and the hungry will follow.

  17. #67
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]
    I already gave an alternative to the "not knowledgable" notion. Go back and read.
    Yep, I did see that Stout, but practically in the same breath you once again labeled them "liars and frauds". I understand your premise for labeling them as such, but my belief is that if you personally took them to task on the point of contention they would be able to satisy you with the reasoning behind their findings (or not).
    What would they possibly have to gain by promoting deceptive and fraudulent information?

    They're thinking outside the box (which elicits laughter, sarcasm, etc), and I don't see any harm in that.

  18. #68
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Yep, I did see that Stout, but practically in the same breath you once again labeled them "liars and frauds". I understand your premise for labeling them as such, but my belief is that if you personally took them to task on the point of contention they would be able to satisy you with the reasoning behind their findings (or not).
    What would they possibly have to gain by promoting deceptive and fraudulent information?

    They're thinking outside the box (which elicits laughter, sarcasm, etc), and I don't see any harm in that.

    I've been mocked for my 'out of box' ideas and projects at work - then when they get implemented I usually get the last laugh.

    On a twist to the subject... Right or wrong; YEC's will probably get the proverbial last laugh because most of them will probably inherit the kingdom of heaven while their non-believing critics will get the last burn...

    I simply believe ICR's goals are misaligned with GOD's will. Especially because most of the evidence points to a supernatural creation of the Universe (from the uniqueness and significance of 15 primary constants that define it). They ought to focus their energy on sharing the Gospel.
    Last edited by Phenomanul; 05-05-2007 at 01:34 PM.

  19. #69
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    Where do you guys stand on Jack and the Beanstalk?

  20. #70
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
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    Where do you guys stand on Jack and the Beanstalk?
    On Jacks head, but it's more of a climbing thing on the stalk.

  21. #71
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    This is the best religious exchange I've ever seen. Clear, concise arguments with intelligent points... NOT usually found in a Political Forum thread, I have to say. Plus, I have yet to see ANY personal attacks, which are so common in this sort of discussions, which speaks volumes about the people involved.

    Seriously gents, you've outdone yourselves! Congrats!

    anyway... continue...


    EDIT: Ok, perhaps there are some attacks, but compared everything else in the political forum, this thread is immaculate

  22. #72
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    but my belief is that if you personally took them to task on the point of contention they would be able to satisy you with the reasoning behind their findings (or not).
    They probably could outmaneuver me in a debate, since I would not be able to decipher the smoke-and-mirrors act until later examination.

    What would they possibly have to gain by promoting deceptive and fraudulent information?
    Possible things they have to gain:

    1) Protecting their own religious beliefs. If their faith depends upon a literal intepretation of Genesis, then they would have a motivation to deceive themselves, and by extension, others.

    2) Religious ideology. If they are believe that fundamentalism is critical to the integrity of Christianity, then they have a motivation to steer people towards fundamentalism, since they may think souls are on the line.

    3) Social ideology. As I said earlier in the thread, if they believe that social order is dependent upon a Biblical morality founded in a literal interpretation thereof, then they could see their behavior as being toward the greater good.

    They don't even necessarily have to do this consciously. The best liars are the ones who convince themselves of the lie.

  23. #73
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    They probably could outmaneuver me in a debate, since I would not be able to decipher the smoke-and-mirrors act until later examination.
    1) You don't give yourself enough credit.

    2) You assume they're out to trick everyone.

    3) If your objectivity changes on account of No. 2, your receptiveness to ideas or new observations will likely not exist.


    Possible things they have to gain:

    1) Protecting their own religious beliefs. If their faith depends upon a literal intepretation of Genesis, then they would have a motivation to deceive themselves, and by extension, others.

    2) Religious ideology. If they are believe that fundamentalism is critical to the integrity of Christianity, then they have a motivation to steer people towards fundamentalism, since they may think souls are on the line.

    3) Social ideology. As I said earlier in the thread, if they believe that social order is dependent upon a Biblical morality founded in a literal interpretation thereof, then they could see their behavior as being toward the greater good.

    They don't even necessarily have to do this consciously. The best liars are the ones who convince themselves of the lie.
    There's a bit of truth to that statement. But the second statement again assumes they're out to trick the world. Which reminds me of an article I read off of Rich Deem's website, because evolutionists have already done so. Surprisingly the article was linked off of ICR's domain - an ins ute Richard Deem chastises much like you do ES.

    Smithsonian: Religious Scientists Prohibited
    by Lawrence Ford
    “Are you a religious person?”

    This question is not allowed on job applications and it is prohibited during job interviews. And regardless of the truth, the religious affiliation of an individual cannot be used to deny employment, except perhaps in church work.

    However, the Smithsonian Ins ution, an agency of the United States government, has been using this question to penalize one of its most gifted scientists, Dr. Richard Sternberg.

    A Research Associate at the National Museum of Natural History, Dr. Sternberg is an evolutionary scientist with two doctorates in biology, one in molecular evolution and the other in theoretical biology. In addition to his research work at the Smithsonian, he served as managing editor of the peer-reviewed Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington.

    During his oversight of this journal, Dr. Sternberg accepted for publication an article led “The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories” by Dr. Stephen C. Meyer, a Cambridge-educated scientist. Publication was accepted only after passing the required peer-review process by other scientists. Dr. Meyer’s article, though highly academic in nature, suggested that Intelligent Design could better solve the biological problems currently under scrutiny.

    Publication of Meyer’s article, however, sparked a firestorm of internal controversy that resulted in discriminatory harassment of Dr. Sternberg by senior Smithsonian scientists and administrators. So defaming were these actions that a congressional oversight committee investigated the claims and publicly released its findings in December 2006 led "Intolerance and the Politicization of Science at the Smithsonian: Smithsonian's Top Officials Permit the Demotion and Harrassment of Scientist Skeptical of Darwinian Evolution."

    Included in the investigation report are emails between Smithsonian officials regarding Dr. Sternberg’s situation and how to terminate his relationship with the museum. The Smithsonian even enlisted the help of Eugenia Scott, Director of the National Center for Science Education, to “monitor Sternberg’s outside activities.”

    In the report summary, congressional investigators concluded:

    The staff investigation has uncovered compelling evidence that Dr. Sternberg’s civil and cons utional rights were violated by Smithsonian officials. Moreover, the agency’s top officials—Secretary Lawrence Small and Deputy Secretary Sheila Burke—have shown themselves completely unwilling to rectify the wrongs that were done or even to genuinely investigate the wrongdoing. Most recently, Burke and Small have allowed NMNH officials to demote Dr. Sternberg to the position of Research Collaborator, despite past assurances from Burke that Dr. Sternberg was a “Research Associate in good standing” and would be given “full and fair consideration” for his request to renew his Research Associateship. The failure of Small and Burke to take any action against such discrimination raises serious questions about the Smithsonian’s willingness to protect the free speech and civil rights of scientists who may hold dissenting views on topics such as biological evolution.

    The Sternberg case is actually a couple of years old, though the congressional oversight committee just completed its investigation. And Dr. Sternberg is not a creationist by any means. He simply allowed a non-Darwinian to publish a scientific paper in an academic journal. For that sin, his career is under attack. Read Dr. Sternberg’s own defense of his actions at rsternberg.net.

    In a Wall Street Journal opinion piece led “The Branding of a Heretic,” the article that originally brought widespread attention to this case, David Klinghoffer comments on the Smithsonian’s handling of the Sternberg matter with these revealing words:

    Darwinism…is an essential ingredient in secularism, that aggressive, quasi-religious faith without a deity. The Sternberg case seems, in many ways, an instance of one religion persecuting a rival, demanding loyalty from anyone who enters one of its churches—like the National Museum of Natural History.

    It’s clear from his article that Mr. Klinghoffer is not a creationist. But his description of Darwinian evolution as a “quasi-religious faith without a deity” reveals an important reality of the debate between evolution and creation: both viewpoints, while working with science, are ultimately matters of faith.

    Creationists admit this. Evolutionists will not.
    Last edited by Phenomanul; 05-05-2007 at 03:31 PM.

  24. #74
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    1) You don't give yourself enough credit.

    2) You assume they're out to trick everyone.

    3) If your objectivity changes on account of No. 2, your receptiveness to ideas or new observations will likely not exist.
    I'm not a PhD; I just know that 2 + 2 does not equal 5.

    I certainly do not have the background to counter an ICR argument off the top of my head, unless it is just obviously wrong and silly.

    Look, these people might be really friendly, polite, magnanimous, what have you. It's not that they are malevolently trying to lie to people. But fundamentalists have a knack for having enough "faith" to deny objective reality when it doesn't fit their theology.

    One can interpret some passages in the Bible to say that line of thinking is the right one ("wisdom of this world" usw.), but whereas that usually has meant to address the Christian's faith in the mystery of Christ and his resurrection, taking it to deny anything whatsoever that contradicts the fundamentalist hermeneutic is going much too far.

  25. #75
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    There are a few points to consider with regard to the Sternberg case:

    When the article says that the paper in question passed "peer review," that is true administratively, but only because Sternberg bypassed the usual practice of sending the paper to an associate editor for review before reviewing it himself.

    In addition, the paper in question was a literature review, whereas the journal in which it was published was meant to be systematic in nature.

    Because Dr. Sternberg and Dr. Meyer are both members of the Discovery Ins ute (Dr. Meyer is actually program director), this was seen as a conflict of interest, and an inappropriate exercise of Dr. Sternberg's editorial authority.

    Despite his abuse of authority with the journal, it is still possible the Smithsonian overreacted, and that their zeal to go after him stemmed from his involvement with Discovery.

    Now with regard to creation and evolution both being matters of faith: baloney. Evolution is nothing more and nothing less than the current state of the art on the biology of species. It is a very strong theory. It is not comprehensive. It has holes. It has differences of opinion. Something could well come along later and blow it up, the way quantum mechanics did to classical physics.

    Creation is a theological and/or philosophical argument about whether and how a Supreme Being brought about the universe. As has been argued back and forth for years, there is really no way deductively to determine scientifically which view is correct. A person can accept the basics of evolution and believe in God, or not. A person can reject mainstream science and believe in God, or not.

    A person has to decide inductively, based upon their own experiences and understanding, about God, and Christians are supposed to communicate their beliefs in order to guide people to an understanding about the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    As we've debated before, Western culture, for all its technological and social advancements resulting from its successful use of rational thought, does not do a good job of conceiving of the spiritual and the abstract. People want something from God they can see and touch to prove he is there. The lack of physical evidence for God in a culture that relies on the concrete is a stumbling block for faith.

    A further problem is that 150-200 years ago, Western rationality was a vehicle for evangelism in this culture. Now that dog won't hunt. But, sometimes it is more expedient to go on as it if still worked, and besides, the souls of laymen are still being saved, right? Redefining our encounter with God as numinous one, to swim against the dominant culture, is much more challenging.

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