True Hoop -- Finally a reasonable Objective Opinion.

[ChumpDumper]

Parttime bench player for a first-team all NBA and a versatile sixth man. I'd say Horry had all the incentive in the world.

I'd say Amare and Boris were stupid for leaving the bench area and giving away the advantage they were going to get from Horry's supension. Again, the eight other guys didn't leave the bench. What was their problem?

[Findog]

The league makes billions of dollars with its image. Fights cost them huge sums of money. The rule is there for that reason. By the way, the ratings won't be down for tonight's game, so suspending those idiots for breaking the simplest rule in the book is going to be a positive for the league.

By the way, if we preserve the integrity of breaking a rule by pushing the consequences back to next season, Horry gets off with no punishment because he's retiring.

But at what cost of pissing off fans? The League perceives that fights cost them money by turning off older, white conservative fans. How much money do those people contribute to the economic wealth of the League? How many of those people watch games that don't involve their teams? The League's bedrock of support comes from basketball junkies and the African-American community, which overlap in a venn diagram. I have no problem with Horry getting let off the hook in regards to a suspension. I thought getting ejected was punishment enough.

[ChumpDumper]

The League perceives that fights cost them money by turning off older, white conservative fans. How much money do those people contribute to the economic wealth of the League?

Is this a serious question?

[Findog]

I'd say Amare and Boris were stupid for leaving the bench area and giving away the advantage they were going to get from Horry's supension. Again, the eight other guys didn't leave the bench. What was their problem?

I think their problem was seeing the MVP getting slammed into the scorer's table on a thug move and they were restrained by the coaching staff and didn't do anything to escalate the situation. If they must be punished, punish them next year. If you think letting that sequence decide this series is reasonable, then I can't help you.

[Findog]

Is this a serious question?

Yes. I would bet five, fair-weather, fickle white "fans" are equal to about 100 basketball junkies in their economic impact on the league. And in the long run, the League is better off catering to the hardcore fans. They're not going to grow their fanbase in arid soil.

[ChumpDumper]

I think their problem was seeing the MVP getting slammed into the scorer's table on a thug move and they were restrained by the coaching staff and didn't do anything to escalate the situation.

But 4/5 os the off-court team didn't react that way. What is wrong with those guys?

If they must be punished, punish them next year.

Have them face the consequences for their actions now.

If you think letting that sequence decide this series is reasonable, then I can't help you.

If you think rules shouldn't be enforced because the players breaking them happen to be stars, then i can't help you.

[ChumpDumper]

Yes. I would bet five, fair-weather, fickle white "fans" are equal to about 100 basketball junkies in their economic impact on the league. And in the long run, the League is better off catering to the hardcore fans. They're not going to grow their fanbase in arid soil.

How many luxury suites do the junkies buy?

[fyatuk]

Parttime bench player for a first-team all NBA and a versatile sixth man. I'd say Horry had all the incentive in the world.

You think Horry was expecting those two players to leave the bench? Horry was not expecting anything other than maybe dantoni or Bell getting in his face, which bell did and Horry did a stupid thing in response.

It's not an incentive if it cannot be expected.

[Findog]

If you think rules shouldn't be enforced because the players breaking them happen to be stars, then i can't help you.

How is rolling over and increasing the punishment in the 07/08 season not holding them accountable for their actions? Why the rush and let THIS decide a playoff series? Of course there are different rules for different players. TNT and ABC are not ponying up lots of money so we can see Pat Burke and Sean Marks get major burn.

[ChumpDumper]

You think Horry was expecting those two players to leave the bench? Horry was not expecting anything other than maybe dantoni or Bell getting in his face, which bell did and Horry did a stupid thing in response.

It's not an incentive if it cannot be expected.

Findog's argument is that players can't help but rush the court at the sight of a hard foul, that they lack any self control and must have their instincts placated -- even though 80% of the Suns bench exhibited just the kind of self-control he claims NBA players simply don't posess.

[leemajors]

Does anyone have the link to the youtube video? Some people are claiming Bell shoved Horry, others say it was a closed fist and a punch. Even if the latter is true, Amare and Diaw rushed to check on Nash. When Nash gets up and charges Horry, they slip back to the bench and are restrained by the Suns coaching staff.

it's really hard to see if there was a closed fist and/or punch, but i think jackson would have recommended suspension of bell as well if he saw it. bell's action probably caused it to be labeled as an altercation though. amare and diaw only returned back to the bench after being restrained and told to go back.

[Findog]

How many luxury suites do the junkies buy?

How many games do they watch in November-January as opposed to the fatcats? How much money do they spend on apparel as opposed to the country club set?

[T Park]

Why the rush and let THIS decide a playoff series? Of course there are different rules for different players. TNT and ABC are not ponying up lots of money so we can see Pat Burke and Sean Marks get major burn.

Probobly cause then they wouldn't learn the lesson.

"Eh screw it, so i miss games in november"

[ChumpDumper]

How is rolling over and increasing the punishment in the 07/08 season not holding them accountable for their actions?

Are you serious? Maybe we'll punishi you next year -- in the meantime, have a ball.

Why the rush and let THIS decide a playoff series?

So players will take the rules seriously.

Of course there are different rules for different players. TNT and ABC are not ponying up lots of money so we can see Pat Burke and Sean Marks get major burn.

So you favor star treatment.

[Findog]

Probobly cause then they wouldn't learn the lesson.

"Eh screw it, so i miss games in november"

I think escalating the penalty if you roll it over into the regular season works.

[ChumpDumper]

How many games do they watch in November-January as opposed to the fatcats?

If they buy a luxury suite, who cares?

How much money do they spend on apparel as opposed to the country club set?

Gee, a foam finger or a luxury suite. Hmmmm.

[fyatuk]

How is rolling over and increasing the punishment in the 07/08 season not holding them accountable for their actions? Why the rush and let THIS decide a playoff series? Of course there are different rules for different players. TNT and ABC are not ponying up lots of money so we can see Pat Burke and Sean Marks get major burn.

It wouldn't necessarily affect the team or the player. If the player retires, they do not suffer any penalty. If the player is a free agent and the team chooses not to resign them, then the team does not suffer the penalty.

Then you also end up with teams not wanting to sign a player who will be suspended for 10 games at the onset, etc.

That is not a good suggestion for a change.

[Findog]

Are you serious?

Dead serious. I'd like to see Spurs fans argue otherwise if they shoe was on the other foot.

Maybe we'll punishi you next year -- in the meantime, have a ball

Yeah, they really escalated that situation and were out of control.

So you favor star treatment

I favor letting a championship get decided on the court. There should be flexibility in determing when to mete out the punishment. If teams want to serve it immediately, it's a game and a $35K fine. If not, then they can sit out more games and lose more money next year.

[kskonn]

Personally I think the rule should be as follows:

you leave the bench during an altercation you get an automatic 100,000 dollar fine. I
If you touch an opposing player after you leave the bench you get an automatic 1 game suspension.
If the situation gets out of hand suspensions will be decided by the commisioner.

The hefty fine will motivate most players from leaving the bench, the suspension will prevent most players from escalating the situation once they leave the bench.

[FromWayDowntown]

The argument that Horry somehow anticipated this response and calculated that there was at least some chance that he could draw suspensions against key Suns is about the most absurd thing I can think of -- the only more absurd contention I've heard is the yarn about Pop ordering the hard foul. I can't imagine that in the timeout that preceded that play, Pop said "Guys, here's the play we want to run. Now, if we don't make the basket, and Finley isn't able to foul Nash after the rebound, and Nash starts heading up the sidelines in front of their bench, I want everyone to clear out so Expendable Rob can put a haymaker on Nash because I think it will provoke Amare and Diaw to get riled up and charge the court." Spare me.

Horry committed a hard foul; undoubtedly that foul was fueled by frustration. Frustration isn't a justification and Horry is being, I think, correctly punished for his actions (though I agree with the thought that Baron Davis somehow got off with extraordinarily light punishment). That's the end of that part of the scenario.

What Diaw and Stoudemire did was break one rule that every player on every team in the league knows to be an absolute no-no. It's not some odd thing that teams have personnel who are specifically tasked with keeping players off the floor when altercations occur. It's also not some odd coincidence that the rest of the Suns' bench stayed in place.

And I'll say again, I think it's beyond ridiculous to argue that there's any justification for delaying punishment for something that has always been punished immediately. If you do that, you're saying that sometimes it's okay to break the rule (or that punishments for identical acts will be treated differently based on when the acts take place -- and really based on who commits the act).

I doubt we'd even be having these conversations if it was Eric Piatkowski and Marcus Banks who'd been suspended. But, unfortunately for the Suns, Amare Stoudemire and Boris Diaw lacked the poise that Piatkowski and Banks showed during Game 4. That's a Suns issue -- it's not a Spurs issue, and it's not an NBA issue.

[ChumpDumper]

Dead serious. I'd like to see Spurs fans argue otherwise if they shoe was on the other foot.

I'd accept the penalty and get on with my life.

Yeah, they really escalated that situation and were out of control.

Your rule would let them run wild the entire playoffs.

I favor letting a championship get decided on the court. There should be flexibility in determing when to mete out the punishment. If teams want to serve it immediately, it's a game and a $35K fine. If not, then they can sit out more games and lose more money next year.

I favor players following the rules and facing the consequences if they don't. This "next year" crap is ridiculous on its face.

[clambake]

Flexibility? Get over it and start gift wrapping their le.

[Findog]

It wouldn't necessarily affect the team or the player. If the player retires, they do not suffer any penalty.

If Horry retires, so what? The point here is to decide these games on the court.

the player is a free agent and the team chooses not to resign them, then the team does not suffer the penalty.

Then you also end up with teams not wanting to sign a player who will be suspended for 10 games at the onset, etc.

That is not a good suggestion for a change

If Amare and Diaw were hitting the market, I doubt that would cause them any problems. Any 12th man is ALWAYS going to be more diligent about where he stands, whether it means keeping his mouth shut when one of the stars busts his balls in the lockerroom or instigating stuff out on the court.

[Cry Havoc]

There is no incentive right now for teams to follow the rules -- if you step out on the court after watching your floor leader hit the deck, as a natural impulse in the heat of a playoff game, you might as well get your licks in instead of heading back to the bench. And you might as well follow the Spurs' lead and go all Bob Probert on teams as a tactic. The way this sequence played out does nothing to prevent what the NBA is trying to avoid.

If Amare and Diaw rush onto the court and start swinging, or "getting their licks in", as you call it, they aren't looking at a 1-game suspension. They're looking at 2-3 games, potentially more if the brawl escalates further.

And it worked. Amare and Diaw realized they were about to screw themselves, and ran back to the bench. But they were perilously close to escalating what could have been among the most devastating fights in NBA history. If they manage to make it to Duncan and Manu, you're looking at Nash, Duncan, Manu, Bell, Horry, Amare, Diaw, AND Nash gone for at least a game, possibly 2 or 3. Would have been a better outcome here? I doubt it.

[Findog]

Your rule would let them run wild the entire playoffs.

No, it would just preserve the integrity of the League.

This "next year" crap is ridiculous on its face.

Deciding the series in the commish's office is ridiculous on its face. Only way Amare and Diaw should miss tonight's game is if they threw and landed punches.