The Spurs need to place a statue of him holding his nuts after this went down at the main entrance to the at&t.
It's the basketball hall of fame, not the pro basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Manu is a lead pipe lock. He put Argentina on the map. The influence of that country on basketball has been huge, and he's the face of it. He's absolutely in the hall if he steps in front of a bus tomorrow.
I had been looking for historical precedent that would suggest that Horry's battle for enshrinement is a monumental task and I think that Cooper's career is probably the best argument for excluding Horry.
Not so much stinkbait as it is an effort to demonstrate that the criteria for enshrinement are very different than most people might think.
To me, Laettner's collegiate career is better than a top-50 -- he reached 4 consecutive Final Fours (in an era when doing that is nearly impossible); he won 2 les and played in a third le game; he holds several significant NCAA Tournament records (including games played and points scored); he won just about every national player of the year award in 1991-92; he made All-America teams in his sop re, junior, and senior seasons; and he hit two of the defining shots of his era of collegiate basketball. To boot, he won a Gold Medal in 1992.
Unless the voters change their criteria for enshrinement from existing precedent, Laettner is a mortal lock for induction.
I don't know that it's a screw-up, but it does change the equation when you're discussing which players will or will not make the Hall. I agree with the premise that Ginobili is just about a certain Hall of Famer now, if for no other reason than he's eclipsed Drazen Petrovic as a guy who was great in Europe and then was very, very good in the NBA. I'm absolutely sold on Laettner getting in as well. I'm sure those argument are unbelievable to those who think of the Hall as an NBA-only ins ution, but clearly, that's not what it is, and I don't think there's any way that it can change at this point.
The Hall should create a category for 'top role players' or some such.
Laettner's career is easily better than top 50. Probably better than anyone outside of UCLA or Bill Russell. But I don't wouldn't say that as a player he is, better than top-30-to-50.
I guess my point is that Hall of Fame inductions are frequently built on careers. And nobody from the last 25 years of collegiate basketball has built a resume that rivals Laettner's.
To take that on to the more immediate point concerning Horry, I don't think there's any way that Horry's career gets him into the Hall of Fame if DJ and (more particularly Coop) aren't there. I can't imagine anyone in this forum making a straight-faced argument to induct Cooper.
Just because the hall of fame made a mistake with KC Jones, it doesn't mean they should make it twice by adding Horry. The baseball hall of fame has like 20, 40 guys that don't belong as well. Two wrongs don't make a right.
You can't put a guy in the hall of fame if nobody will ever blame him for playing poorly in a playoff game. Whatever Horry gives you is icing, always has been, always will be. Nobody game plans for Horry and nobody ever says, "Man if only Horry showed up tonight we woulda won."
Horry holds a ton of NBA records....in case no one realizes that. It also could be argued that he was the first Big Small Forward and redefined the position for guys that came after like Garnett and Marion...
7 Rings...holds NBA records, redefined his position. Belongs in the Hall.
It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Stats...and just about every team in the NBA knows who Horry is and either hates him or loves him.
He's a HOF'er in deed and name if not in stat. And that's good enough...
Otherwise...someone kindly point me to the statistical benchmarks required for induction into the HOF according to the HOF....
What records does he hold? Other than having made it past the first round every year of his career -- a team accomplishment -- I can't think of any real record that Horry owns.
And if Horry's a Hall of Famer in deed and not in stat, then (again) why isn't Michael Cooper? or Dennis Johnson?
There are no statistical benchmarks, but inducting Horry would be a statistically unprecedented selection of a guy who wasn't also an absolutely dominant collegiate player.
First man to have 100 threes, steals and blocks in the same season.
Only man to start at 3 different position for an NBA champion(SF, PF, C)
NBA finals record for threes.
NBA Finals single game record for steals.
NBA playoff record for consecutive threes.
Only man to win multiple les on 3 different teams.
Only non-Celtic to have 7 rings.
Pretty sure he is the only guy to play 15 years and never fail to make it to the second round.
He's got to be in the top 10 all time in playoff blocks and steals....if he doesn't have that, he will soon..and I imagine he will be the only guy in the top 10 in both(although Kareem and Hakeem might be).
And next year he's going to pass Kareem for playing in the most playoff games ever...
You have to be one of a coattailer to put up a resume like that.
First of all, Manu could retire tomorrow and he'd be a mortal lock. He was an MVP of the olympics and an MVP of the Euroleague and that's like automatic induction right there. It's the Basketball HOF, not the NBA. They give coaches, women and foreigners lots and lots of love. His NBA accomplishments have just solidified his induction.
As for Tony, I think he's not there yet, but well on his way to the HOF. He would help his cause if he could lead France to a medal in '08.
But as of right now, yes, I'd vote for Tony every day of the week and twice on Sunday before I'd pick Horry for the hall. The guy takes every regular season off, it's a joke. He's taken this clutch reputation the media has given him and run with it, where it's his whole iden y now. Shaq and LeBron get plenty of (and deservedly so) when they coast until February. This guy coasts THE WHOLE YEAR. Gimme a break.
And he's hit as many memorable last second playoff shots as any player in NBA history IMO...including Jordan.
He's not just a coatailer guys...
HORRY brings alot more then stats in playoffs
not sure if he belongs in hall but he wins a ring next year it is quite possible
They don't have seven rings, they haven't broken as many hearts, they didn't do it for as many different teams, and they don't have as many records or memorable shots.
Not inducting a Non Celtic with 7 Rings would be unprecedented.There are no statistical benchmarks, but inducting Horry would be a statistically unprecedented selection of a guy who wasn't also an absolutely dominant collegiate player.
Not inducting the NBA's all time leader in playoff games played would be unprecedented.
I'd take Robert Horry over a ton of guys in the HOF.
manu is alot like horry
manu just plays great the last quarter
horry plays great the last quarter of his teams seasons
it is called playoffs
Funny, you say "Big Small Forward" and to me that's a fancy way of saying "Big Hairy Girl." The reason Horry lives behind the three point line is because he doesn't have the stones to bang with the big boys night after night.
I get a kick out of him saying he'd rather have Barkley's career, being a superstar and making big money but with no rings as opposed to being a role player with 7 rings. Oh really? Then why don't you get your ass in the paint and play like a 6'11 guy you are then?
I mean this is ridiculous. I make fun of KG and Marion all the time, but it's an insult to both of them to compare them to Horry. Both of those guys get 11, 12 rebounds a game as well as 20 points. They at least stick their noses in there. KG is a power forward, always has been. Marion is mostly a four these days and certainly rebounds like one. Horry is a smart player and a heady defender, but certainly not tough and definitely not somebody you gameplan for.
Should we put Steve Kerr in the HOF too?
I'd put Dennis Rodman in, even with all the sideshows, a hundred times over before Horry.
Horry has averaged fewer than 10 ppg for 12 of his 15 NBA seasons and has averaged less than 5 rebounds per game for his career. His post-season numbers are marginally better.
As for his playoff records -- first, including the most recent playoffs, Horry isn't in the All-Time Top 10 in playoff blocks and he's 8th in steals. Being the only non-Celtic to have 7 rings isn't a record -- it's the answer to a trivia question. Holding the record for steals in an NBA Finals game isn't something that HOF induction is built upon; Kenny Smith holds NBA Finals single-game records, but nobody cares about that. I also don't buy that the record for consecutive 3's is, in any meaningful sense, a significant record.
Horry's played in a lot of playoff games, to be sure; but he's played in those games alongside 3 of the greatest big men to ever lace 'em up in the NBA playoffs -- to ignore that fact (or to pretend like Horry holding the record for playoff games isn't directly attributable to having played alongside those guys) is disingenuous, I think. If Horry had played with Patrick Ewing, Dikembe Mutombo, and Alonzo Mourning, I'm pretty confident that he wouldn't be in striking distance of Kareem's record.
Well somebody has to.
In a sense you're right, they are both clutch as
Cooper has 5 rings and was a DPOY and an 8 time All-Defense selection. Johnson had 4 rings with 2 teams and played in 180 playoff games while actually making some All-NBA teams during his career and making 5 All-Star teams. All Horry has on those guys is 2 more rings -- garnered by having played with 3 of the best big men ever.
So, wait, failing to do something that has never happened is unprecedented? I don't think that word means what you think it means.
In any event, as noted above in this thread, Jim Loscutoff won 7 rings and isn't in the Hall of Fame.
Because the NBA's all-time leader in playoff games for the last generation has been a guy who won 6 championships and 6 NBA MVP awards, is the NBA's all-time leader in points scored, was a no-brainer inclusion in the Top 50, had one of the best collegiate careers ever. Hmmmm, I don't think being #1 on the playoff games list was crucial to Kareem's induction.
Being high on that list doesn't necessarily auger HOF consideration. Danny Ainge is 5th all-time in playoff games, but I don't hear anyone arguing that he's a Hall of Famer. Byron Scott is 10th, but, like Ainge, I don't hear any arguments that Scott should be inducted into the HOF.
I suspect that most of the guys that you'd take him over are guys who are in for things other than their NBA accomplishments.
Again...show me where that excludes you from the HOF and I'll concede the point...however it doesn't exclude you from the HOF.
And I said if he doesn't have that one he will too.As for his playoff records -- first, including the most recent playoffs, Horry isn't in the All-Time Top 10 in playoff blocks and he's 8th in steals.
When you consider that the only guys with more rings were the greatest dynasty in Pro Sports history...I think it's more than just a trivia question. IT's an accomplishment.,Being the only non-Celtic to have 7 rings isn't a record -- it's the answer to a trivia question.
It's a record nontheless.Holding the record for steals in an NBA Finals game isn't something that HOF induction is built upon;
Kenny Smith doesn't have 7 rings with 3 different teams and a plethora of playoff daggers that make anyone this side of Jordan envious.Kenny Smith holds NBA Finals single-game records, but nobody cares about that.
But it's a record nontheless...add it up and that's two records he has...plus more.I also don't buy that the record for consecutive 3's is, in any meaningful sense, a significant record.
And he's got more rings than any of them.Horry's played in a lot of playoff games, to be sure; but he's played in those games alongside 3 of the greatest big men to ever lace 'em up in the NBA playoffs --
Magic Johnson never won a ring without Kareem...Kareem never won a ring without Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson...Jordan without Pippen, Bird without McHale or Parish...and Hakeem never won a ring without Horry.
And to act like those guys would have had the careers they would have had in terms of championships without a supporting cast and IMO, some of Horry's shots...is just as speculative.to ignore that fact (or to pretend like Horry holding the record for playoff games isn't directly attributable to having played alongside those guys) is disingenuous, I think.
Game 5 FWDT...tell me we win the le without it...regardless of what Duncan does.
And if Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan hadn't played with Horry...I am pretty sure they wouldn't have as many rings as they had.If Horry had played with Patrick Ewing, Dikembe Mutombo, and Alonzo Mourning, I'm pretty confident that he wouldn't be in striking distance of Kareem's record.
And I sure do think Horry might have been good to get Ewing a ring in 94...he was pretty damn good in those finals...and it went 7 games. I think we would have beaten the Rockets in 95 if we had him. I can think of one game he decided when the opportunity fell to him.
It's a mistake for you to attempt to classify Horry as merely another role player...he isn't that. He is an exceptional role player...if not a superstar.
He's a one man dynasty(supporting or otherwise)...he has more rings than all but two NBA franchises...if it's so easy to do...why hasn't anyone else done it?
Horry's a unique player...it's hiis uniqueness that is causing this debate, it's also why he belongs in the Hall.
There is nothing in the rule book to back any of your arguments up...only previous voting trends...there hasn't been a player like Horry previously up for induction to test those trends.
The name is the HOF...and he qualifies based on that name.
He also played with the greatest point guard and C in NBA history...did Horry?
I see...and how many playoff game winnners did they hit?Johnson had 4 rings with 2 teams and played in 180 playoff games while actually making some All-NBA teams during his career and making 5 All-Star teams. All Horry has on those guys is 2 more rings -- garnered by having played with 3 of the best big men ever.
So, wait, failing to do something that has never happened is unprecedented? I don't think that word means what you think it means.
In any event, as noted above in this thread, Jim Loscutoff won 7 rings and isn't in the Hall of Fame.
My guess is that is because they had to draw the line somewhere with the Sixties Celtics...
If it's so easy to do...then why hasn't anyone else done it?Because the NBA's all-time leader in playoff games for the last generation has been a guy who won 6 championships and 6 NBA MVP awards, is the NBA's all-time leader in points scored, was a no-brainer inclusion in the Top 50, had one of the best collegiate careers ever. Hmmmm, I don't think being #1 on the playoff games list was crucial to Kareem's induction.
They don't have enough rings to make Jordan jealous either.Being high on that list doesn't necessarily auger HOF consideration. Danny Ainge is 5th all-time in playoff games, but I don't hear anyone arguing that he's a Hall of Famer. Byron Scott is 10th, but, like Ainge, I don't hear any arguments that Scott should be inducted into the HOF.
No...I just know that it takes supporting players to win championships...and a good role player can contribute more to a le sometimes than a superstar...and that there is no set criteria for HOF induction...I suspect that most of the guys that you'd take him over are guys who are in for things other than their NBA accomplishments.
Fame is the key word...
Let's go do a poll and see how Dennis Johnson and Jim Loscutoff do against Horry...
Incidentally...Michael Cooper does think Horry is a HOF'er.
Not much quality to this take but at least it's not about Manu or Parker.
It's a step in the right direction
your approval means everything to me. Now take that thumb and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. And then post about it afterward, mentioning that your thumb doesn't stink because you have a magical asshole that produces an aroma of fresh cut roses so all your Spurstalk worshippers can praise you some more.
Also not about Manu. Props
How'd that Horry bet turn out?
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