Charles Barkley's Assessment of Dirk Today

[Findog]

Nellie and the Big Three took the Spurs to 6 without Dirk and should have gone to 7 if not for a miraculous barrage of 3's by Kerr and Jackson. That team wasn't as good as the Spurs but they had a decent shot at beating them.

And the result was as it should be: the better team beat the lesser team.

Maybe if they don't blow a 3-0 lead to Portland and didn't take 7 games to beat a Webber-less Kings team they would have had an even better chance to take down the Spurs that year.

No, I don't think so. Nellie's teams were never in the Spurs or Shaq/Kobe's class.

It's even harder when a guy named Ryan Bowen is shutting down your own "matchup nightmare".

22, 8 and 3 isn't being "shut down." He didn't guard him one-on-one the whole series.

Okay great, Terry can't play defense. Nice observation. Doesn't change a ing thing.

Doesn't make it Dirk's fault either. And it was as big, if not a bigger factor in those series losses than Dirk. Not Terry by himself, but Devin, Adrian Griffin, all of our perimeter defenders who couldn't keep those guys from killing us.

When is the last time Duncan or Garnett or Jordan or Kobe or any other superstar played like and everybody glossed over it and said "Well despite that fact that he only shot 4 for 16 and allowed a far inferior player make him their , the big problem is that his teammates didn't help him out". Those guys are going to catch for their failure because they are THE MAN on their team. Sure, a Ginobili or Pippen or whoever might get criticized for playing like as well, but if THE MAN also plays like , he's the one to shoulder the blame.

Dirk should get his proportion of the blame, the common thread from you and other fans is that it's ALL on him, and I don't agree with that.

Why did Ginobili catch so much for the foul on Dirk?

Because it was a dumb ing play.

Because Duncan was a ing warrior out there, that's why.

No, because it was a dumb ing play.

If Duncan scores 8 points in that game 7, nobody gives a what Ginobili did out there.

That sequence had nothing to do with Duncan.

This criticism isn't something new. EVERY star faces it, and every star handles it. But for whatever reason, whenever Mav fans hear it about their beloved Dirky, their panties get all wadded up and they find a way to make Jason Terry and Josh Howard look like Larry and Curly because God forbid we point a finger at our superstar

You won't find me arguing that Dirk played great against the Warriors. What you won't find me doing is putting EVERYTHING on him, because he doesn't deserve it.

[td4mvp3]

That Houston team was damn good. Dwyane Wade and a motivated Shaq are damn good. They probably would've won the le a year before if they hadnt been derailed by injuries in the ECF. (ducks angry Spurs fans)

But I'm detecting a theme here...Wade went for 35 ppg on 16 FTAs and 47% shooting. Is that Dirk's fault?

Baron Davis went for 25 and 5 on 57% shooting. Is that Dirk's fault?

Tracy McGrady went for 31, 7 and 7 on 46% shooting. Is that Dirk's fault?

Dirk went for 22, 8 and 3 on 36% shooting in the Houston series. That IS on him. Subpar for him, but not terrible. Even when he's off his game, he still helps his team. You act like he's a complete non-factor. And he's drawing double teams. Where is the constant harping on our perimeter defense? Everybody wants to call out Dirk, nobody wants to call out our guards for being unable to keep McGrady, Nash, Wade and Davis in front of them. That's just as big a factor in my mind in playoff failure as anything Dirk has or hasn't done.



When have we been a legitimate le contender? When we were wet behind the ears and lost to the Spurs in 2001? When we played no team d and lost to the Kings in 2002, Spurs in 2003, Kings again in 2004? When we ran into a better Phoenix team in 2005? I'd personally prefer not to crucify the guy and lay team failures at his feet without taking into account his entire body of work, but we're en led to differing opinions.

in a way, i think you're making the other guy's argument for him. if we give you that davis and wade became unstoppable because of their driving ability and, as you've said, dirk scores be shooting over folks or driving, then the question becomes what kept him from elevating his game a la wade and davis? his shots weren't falling and we know calls are coming once you drive in for a basket. dirk didn't do that and there were scant few who could have stopped him. gs had no shot blocker; miami had oneal, who could have been put into foul trouble.

[monosylab1k]

And the result was as it should be: the better team beat the lesser team.

No, I don't think so. Nellie's teams were never in the Spurs or Shaq/Kobe's class.

22, 8 and 3 isn't being "shut down." He didn't guard him one-on-one the whole series.

Doesn't make it Dirk's fault either. And it was as big, if not a bigger factor in those series losses than Dirk. Not Terry by himself, but Devin, Adrian Griffin, all of our perimeter defenders who couldn't keep those guys from killing us.

Dirk should get his proportion of the blame, the common thread from you and other fans is that it's ALL on him, and I don't agree with that.

Because it was a dumb ing play.

No, because it was a dumb ing play.

That sequence had nothing to do with Duncan.

You won't find me arguing that Dirk played great against the Warriors. What you won't find me doing is putting EVERYTHING on him, because he doesn't deserve it.

Well I'll keep this in mind as I go tell Knicks fans "hey, it wasn't Ewing's fault he failed so often in the playoffs....if ing John Starks and Anthony Mason would have stepped up their game then Ewing wouldn't have had to...blame it all on them."

[td4mvp3]

yeah that's true, but I guess what I was trying to say was this - if the Spurs are down by 1 with three seconds to go, and Duncan is at the line to shoot 2 FT's in game 7 of the Finals, is there any doubt that he makes them both?

Now think of the same scenario, but with Dirk at the line...are you as confident in his ability to do it? And he's about 30% better at the line than Duncan.

i'd honestly put dirk on the line before duncan. game 5 in 05 was that exact scenario; heck, in the wcf of that year, duncan went 15-15 in one game and like 3-12 in the next.

[monosylab1k]

i'd honestly put dirk on the line before duncan. game 5 in 05 was that exact scenario; heck, in the wcf of that year, duncan went 15-15 in one game and like 3-12 in the next.

wow....i guess i've seen far too many missed FT's late in games to have that type of confidence in dirk....it happens more often than just the few national games that he's done it in. then again, i don't see 82 games of tim duncan shoting from the line.

[Findog]

in a way, i think you're making the other guy's argument for him. if we give you that davis and wade became unstoppable because of their driving ability and, as you've said, dirk scores be shooting over folks or driving, then the question becomes what kept him from elevating his game a la wade and davis? his shots weren't falling and we know calls are coming once you drive in for a basket. dirk didn't do that and there were scant few who could have stopped him. gs had no shot blocker; miami had oneal, who could have been put into foul trouble.

O'Neal didn't get as heavy minutes after G2 because Riley realized that Zo gave him a better chance to win. Sometimes I think you have to give credit to the defenders. The Warriors were active in the passing lanes and they ran double and triple teams at him the entire series. When you're getting double-teamed like that, the correct play is to give up the ball and let a wide-open teammate make a shot. Avery for whatever reason in the Miami series doubled Shaq when he was on the floor and refused to trap Wade and take the ball out of his hands. I'm not into blaming the refs, I'll just note that you and I both watched that series: Were the Mavs' perimeter defenders allowed to aggressively body up Wade and crowd him the way Haslem and Posey were allowed to do to Dirk?

My argument is not to absolve Dirk for failing to play well, my argument is that the entire TEAM did not play well against Mia/GS, and I don't care about trite "The Man" analysis. If your best player is getting double-teamed and has to give the ball up, hit an open shot (JET.) If the opposing team's star guard can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, that's not on Dirk. And the funny thing is he wants to swap out KG for Dirk, straight up.

[Findog]

i'd honestly put dirk on the line before duncan. game 5 in 05 was that exact scenario; heck, in the wcf of that year, duncan went 15-15 in one game and like 3-12 in the next.

You can't expect a guy to hit 100% of his FTS. Wade missed two huge ones in a row at the end of G6 in the Finals, I have no qualms about ever sending him back to the line in clutch situations. Sometimes a missed FT is a missed FT, has nothing to do with a guy's heart or courage. It just happened at the worst possible time.

[Findog]

Well I'll keep this in mind as I go tell Knicks fans "hey, it wasn't Ewing's fault he failed so often in the playoffs....if ing John Starks and Anthony Mason would have stepped up their game then Ewing wouldn't have had to...blame it all on them."

Jordan's Bulls > Ewing's Knicks. And the Knicks would've had a le if Starks hadn't shot 1-18 against the Rockets. Is that Ewing's fault?

[monosylab1k]

When you're getting double-teamed like that, the correct play is to give up the ball and let a wide-open teammate make a shot.

I gotta wonder what player you've been watching. One of Dirk's biggest flaws is his inability to effectively pass out of a double team. This has NOT IN ANY WAY been a case of Dirk making the right play and Terry ing things up. The majority of the time he DIDN'T EVEN GET THE BALL because he was allowing himself to be pushed around by Jackson/Haslem/Bowen, and even if he did get the ball he allowed the defender to dictate where he went with it, he would just pass it back out before anyone could make a move, which is why Terry or Stack or someone else would eventually just jack up a shot.

[td4mvp3]

O'Neal didn't get as heavy minutes after G2 because Riley realized that Zo gave him a better chance to win. Sometimes I think you have to give credit to the defenders. The Warriors were active in the passing lanes and they ran double and triple teams at him the entire series. When you're getting double-teamed like that, the correct play is to give up the ball and let a wide-open teammate make a shot. Avery for whatever reason in the Miami series doubled Shaq when he was on the floor and refused to trap Wade and take the ball out of his hands. I'm not into blaming the refs, I'll just note that you and I both watched that series: Were the Mavs' perimeter defenders allowed to aggressively body up Wade and crowd him the way Haslem and Posey were allowed to do to Dirk?

My argument is not to absolve Dirk for failing to play well, my argument is that the entire TEAM did not play well against Mia/GS, and I don't care about trite "The Man" analysis. If your best player is getting double-teamed and has to give the ball up, hit an open shot (JET.) If the opposing team's star guard can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, that's not on Dirk. And the funny thing is he wants to swap out KG for Dirk, straight up.

i think the dirk-kg thing wouldn't help anyone. and granted, a team game demands the rest of the players perform their role. the miami series is fuzzier for me, i was just rooting for the heat so wasn't paying any attention to the defenses. but i do remember vividly that game 6 against golden state, there was no need for aggresive double teams on dirk because he was firing away from 3, much like he had in game 5. everyone saw what could happen by driving in the spurs-mavs in 06 but it wasn't repeated in 07. and it's not like the scoring was dismal, if i recall, a lot of those games hit the 100s. shots were obviously falling so one could argue the rest of the players were giving you as much as could be expected. look at the spurs-cavs game 3: the big three suck but the role players provide as much as they can. both teams were playing the slow-down game. with the mavs, though, both teams were playing the uptempo game and the role players were doing as much as could be expected. the one unstoppable mismatch, though, was dirk and he let himself become very stoppable.

[monosylab1k]

Jordan's Bulls > Ewing's Knicks. And the Knicks would've had a le if Starks hadn't shot 1-18 against the Rockets. Is that Ewing's fault?

That explains the Pacers beating them all those times. And his 1 point playoff game. And missing a game-winning finger roll. And not just telling John Starks "stop shooting, give me the ing ball and let me win this thing".

What's funny is that all you do is replace Ewing with Dirk and Starks with Terry and it all sounds exactly the same.

[Findog]

the one unstoppable mismatch, though, was dirk and he let himself become very stoppable.

Yeah, he was pretty subpar by his standards, and it was mystifying to me to watch him settle for too many jumpers, but the crux of mono's argument, or at least the tone of it, seems to be that Dirk is a worthless playoff performer based on the past seven years and I don't think that's true. It's not fair to ask a green Dirk to carry the Mavs past superior Spurs and Kings teams 3-5 years ago. I'm really only willing to hold his feet to the fire over GS. I'd agree Dirk isn't as consistent as he needs to be, he came up way too short against GS, more so than Miami, but for every 8 points on 2-13 shooting or whatever it was against the Warriors, there's a 37-15 against the Spurs. There's 55 points in a pivotal G5 against the Suns. I think the worst you can say about Dirk is that he's had some disappointing playoff performances, but that's true of damn near almost anybody. Does Wade get a pass for allowing his team to get swept out of the playoffs bc he's got a ring? Evidently he does.


I just don't deal in absolutes: "Dirk is great, get off his back," or "Dirk ing sucks balls and we should trade him." Trading Dirk is not the answer IMO.

[Findog]

That explains the Pacers beating them all those times. And his 1 point playoff game. And missing a game-winning finger roll. And not just telling John Starks "stop shooting, give me the ing ball and let me win this thing".

By the same token, Duncan > Dirk, so if the Mavs are going to be better than the Spurs, either Dirk is going to have to outplay Duncan (fat chance), or the Dallas supporting cast has to be better than the San Antonio supporting cast.

[monosylab1k]

for every 8 points on 2-13 shooting or whatever it was against the Warriors, there's a 37-15 against the Spurs.

it's great to know that Dirk's good playoff game-to-bad playoff game ratio is 1:1....that's stellar.

[Findog]

it's great to know that Dirk's good playoff game-to-bad playoff game ratio is 1:1....that's stellar.

I don't feel like going through 80 games worth of box scores, but I'm willing to bet good $ it's better than that. I'll even waive my winning fee if you take the time to do it yourself.

[RonMexico]

I don't feel like going through 80 games worth of box scores, but I'm willing to bet good $ it's better than that. I'll even waive my winning fee if you take the time to do it yourself.

In the same vein, can the general public submit requests to the Elias Sports Bureau with questions such as the good-to-bad game ratio one above?

Then could they also compare Dirk's output to that of other playoff flops like Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, Shawn Kemp, Chris Webber, etc?

I really want to know about this, because then they could also analyze the intercourse-to-herpes contraction ratio of all my es...

[td4mvp3]

Yeah, he was pretty subpar by his standards, and it was mystifying to me to watch him settle for too many jumpers, but the crux of mono's argument, or at least the tone of it, seems to be that Dirk is a worthless playoff performer based on the past seven years and I don't think that's true. It's not fair to ask a green Dirk to carry the Mavs past superior Spurs and Kings teams 3-5 years ago. I'm really only willing to hold his feet to the fire over GS. I'd agree Dirk isn't as consistent as he needs to be, he came up way too short against GS, more so than Miami, but for every 8 points on 2-13 shooting or whatever it was against the Warriors, there's a 37-15 against the Spurs. There's 55 points in a pivotal G5 against the Suns. I think the worst you can say about Dirk is that he's had some disappointing playoff performances, but that's true of damn near almost anybody. Does Wade get a pass for allowing his team to get swept out of the playoffs bc he's got a ring? Evidently he does.

I just don't deal in absolutes: "Dirk is great, get off his back," or "Dirk ing sucks balls and we should trade him." Trading Dirk is not the answer IMO.

i think the argument would sway on whether or not the mavs were picked to win those series. if dirk is consistently being beat by teams his team is supposed to beat (or barely eeking out a victory) then he is somewhat subpar. a webberless kings team wasn't playing anymore defense than the mavs were, that shouldn't have gone 7. if a green dirk gets some slack, then a green yao should also be taken into consideration, and again, not go 7. but more than anything, a mature dirk, with a squad that has killed the league for 67 games, should not lose to the warriors with its superstar clanking 3s. i guess dirk is comparable to malone at this point, if someone considers malone a playoff bust then i don't see why dirk can't be seen as such.

[monosylab1k]

I don't feel like going through 80 games worth of box scores, but I'm willing to bet good $ it's better than that. I'll even waive my winning fee if you take the time to do it yourself.

I was just going by what you said.