Oh, and I love how the moment I don't answer a question it's pointed out, yet I'm still waiting for a credible reason as to why minorities make up dispraportionate percentages of the people under the poverty line.
Regarding slavery, no, Asians have not been affected in a "large way" in the United States; nor have Hispanics.
I don't know this to be correct, but until proven otherwise, I believe that, overwhelmingly, Asian-Americans have achieved the financial success that they have because of intense internal pressure from within their family to succeed - beginning with elementary education.
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/pr...12Arc3186.htmlRecent demographic changes
While American immigration history is marked with intentional efforts to keep Asians out and to restrict their rights when admitted, Hing's study also shows that laws often have unintended consequences. No one in Congress or the White House in the mid-1960s, for instance, predicted that Asians would come to be 48 percent of legal immigration.
The Congressional record shows that the 1965 amendments, a major overhaul of U.S. immigration law, were intended to advance European immigration, Hing said, while at the same time removing quotas that clearly gave preference to white Europeans.
Yet, European immigration is now only about 12 percent of the total, despite further amendments passed in 1989 to provide Europeans with "transition visas" not available to Asians.
"We have never understood the limits of legally imposed control or the frequently unpredictable and sometimes paradoxical consequences of immigration policies and laws," he said.
One result of the 1965 amendments is that the Asian American population has increased from 1 million in 1965 to 7 million in 1990, with about 7 in 10 foreign born.
Japanese were the largest Asian American group in 1965, followed by Chinese Americans. Now Chinese are the largest, followed by Filipinos; and discernible Korean and Asian Indian communities have developed, along with Vietnamese who have come primarily as refugees. The total Vietnamese group most likely will outnumber Japanese by the year 2000, he said.
In addition, Laotians, Kampucheans, Thais, Pakistanis, Indonesians, Hmong, Samoans and Tongans are beginning to establish substantial U.S. communities, Hing said.
As you can see, there has been a large surge in immigration from Asian countries post 65 which would also mean the surge started in a post civil rights era.
I'm trying to find more information on this, but it's a pain in the ass to find specific information.
I think we are still on different wavelengths. Post-Civil Rights era?!
Manny, you want to fix a problem, but yet you insist on wallowing in the past. I don't think you can do both. Feel free to prove me wrong, but where will that get you?
I'm not wallowing in the past GON. I'm arguing a point here that has historical significance in what it has caused today. Weren't you the one who pointed out to Duff the answer wasn't the only thing that mattered?
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...5&postcount=47
I'm trying to make the point that there is a reason that minorities are in the position they are in today.
The moment I make valid points torwards that, I get accused of living in the past or I get reminded that being born white is not the equivlant of a silver spoon.
We all know there is a problem in these neighborhoods and we all know that government assistance is very slow in coming and is often distributed in short sighted unefficent ways.
So, if you feel that me arguing against a mindset that puts the entire burden of success upon a society which has been hindered and set back is wallowing in the past, then we'll have to disagree.
I merely have to point to the article that started this thread to point out that assistance to minorities is something that is far from assured. FAR from it.
Look, I just think that this country has done a large disservice to minorities and the least it can do now is provide them with a means to get an adequte education. I feel it's the least it can do for poor people of any color.
Oh and I meant post civil rights ACT era.
Damn! It's still early, and I have a few beers left, so here goes.
You kind of got me there, but I will try to recover.
Care to divy the responsibilities for this plight between the individual and taxpayers?
Manny, your approach just seems all wrong to me. You are trying to make the world a better place for minorities, rather than just making the world a better place
Whitey agrees with you.
Take this to your grave Manny. You cannot argue against a "mindset" and win minds. It does NOT happen. Action is required (i.e. acorn.org)
Here we disagree. As a taxpayer, I have provided the means. Teachers, books, and a roof (and something resembling proper nutrition, I hope). You may want more, and so may I, but, (again, speaking as a taxpayer) this where my obligation ends.
Actually, I'm willing to pay more, but only within the context of my local school district
And I'm still waiting for your shot at a solution.
I have no problem with money for education. That is, if it's used for education, not padding the pockets of school boards or district administrators.
I expect accountability as the price for that money. That means testing. That means teacher evaluations.
Personally, I'd like to see a multi-tier system, much like what you'd see in Germany or the like. Let's face it, not everyone is cut out for college. We may have equal right endowed to us by our Creator, but that doesn't mean we are of equal makeup. There used to be a voc-ed track in school, but it's been done away with. This was a mistake.
Likewise, I don't want to see honors or GT programs done away with either. You say that would never happen? Do your research...it's been tried. Sometimes the claim is that it costs too much, but often times parents of those not in those programs are jealous that their own dimple-darlings can't seem to handle it and try to take it away from others who can.
I am educationally very hard-core...but I also understand the need for extra-curricular activities. When kept in the proper place, they are a valuable addition to any kid's education. And I don't mean just sports...I mean fine arts...I mean "nerd compe ions"...I mean everything.
In my ideal case, every student would be able to choose the track they want to pursue (honors/GT, "standard", voc-ed). There would be no testing required to enter the honors/GT track, but there would be a performance threshold that would have to be maintained or risk dropping back to the "standard" track. No one would be forced to be on the voc-ed track, either...but it would be available for those who want to enter the trades and have no desire to attend college.
The state funding scheme for public schools needs to be addressed. Robin Hood was nothing more than class warfare and I'm not sorry to see it go. We do need a better system. On the other hand, I'm not willing to sacrifice my own kids' education to make someone else "feel" better. Any changes had better be at least neutral to my kids' current system or I will fight tooth and nail.
Manny, I dispute your "right" to have a chip on your shoulder. Have you personally been discriminated against? You mention your grandfather and what he went through. Fine...he's en led to that chip. But until you actually go through what he went through, you're not. You don't get to inherit it.
You seem to think that my half-Hispanic kids have inherited the "right" to walk around with chips on their shoulders. Bull . And what's more, their Hispanic mother and Hispanic grandparents call "bull " on you as well. They are expected to work hard on their schoolwork and keep their grades up. They are expected to pull their weight in their extra-curricular activities. Never, not once have they ever been told that because they are Hispanic they need to act a certain way or do certain things or maintain lower expectations. And anyone who tries that bull will end up putting me in jail, because I will kick their @$$.
My kids are the most important thing in my life, certainly more important than someone else's kids. I would never stand in the way of someone fighting for their own kids, but I would never sacrifice my kids for someone else's.
Now, despite all this wrangling back and forth, I'm sure we can come up with a win/win scenario, or at least a close facsimile thereof. You and I actually agree about a lot of things. But we need to drop all the "chips" and class warfare crap and worry about the kids education, not what "class" they happen to belong to.
I agree with you 100 percent Travis. There are a lot of people who have "worked" their way through college and it was not easy. This country does not owe anyone a "free" education. Thats a welfare state and makes people basically lazy. Notice I said "people". Not Mexican, colored, etc. Working is the American way and it has worked for a bunch of years. Put everything on the scale Manny and see if it is worth giving up some "fun" to further your education. I did not attend college. I went to the school of "hard Knocks". It's not always a smooth road but one can be very comfortable doing that. It's okay to dream of that job where you will be financially wealthy but it doesn't turn out that way in most cases. Forget about solving all the world's problems for a while and concentrate on your own. It seems to be the most important at hand.
It shouldn't piss you off...they also had the money to make my old high school John Jay way better. It was a pretty crappy when I went there...but now that I graduated, they made the school better so that my cousins who go there now can enjoy what I didn't have at the school.
Hey man Asians had it pretty bad too...in the old days in the Pacific Northwest, they had Asian people living underground in tunnels and . All the while waking up in the morning to work on the railroad for meager wages, not to mention in WWII having to be thrown in "relocation" camps because of their ethinicity.
I think all white people should have a chip on their shoulder, because not all white people are Einstein or FDR. I think all black people should have a chip on their shoulder, because not all black people are MLK or Frederick Douglass. I think all hispanic americans should have a chip on their shoulder because they are not all Hidalgo or Cesar Chavez. I think all Asian people should have a chip on their shoulder because not all asian people were Confucius.
You're making sense, Duff...
Obviously I haven't had enough coffee this morning...
Not that it is in the same proportion as Asian-Americans but I would venture to say that a significant proportion of the Hispanic-American population is foreign born.
A few observations: first off, Asian Americans certainly historically have been the subject of discrimination and overt racism in this country.
Secondly, if America is such a horrible place for non-whites and one in which they cannot succeed why is it that as a group Asian-Americans have such a low poverty rate and are overrepresented in ins utions of higher education? Perhaps the answer lies in the fact that such a large percentage of the group are indeed immigrants. Perhaps those "communities" with large immigrant populations don't carry the historical psychic baggage that others do.
To be honest the biggest problem facing the poor but not only the poor in this country is a sense of en lement. We Americans have come to expect success, not in the sense that we strive for success as much as we think it is our birthright. This is not just an at ude among the poor but also I would argue which is pervasive throughout the 'middle class' (broadly defined). Also, we Americans are good at creating scapegoats when we fail. Historical racial discrimination is a good example, as is the impact of affirmative action programs (I feel the principle of the matter is important, but the impact of such programs on non-'protected groups' is quite small).
I don't think it is healthy for this country to be spreading a message that you should have a racial chip on your shoulder. It's simply excuse promotion and it also will only create a backlash from the evil white majority which supposedly has had everything handed to it off the backs of the ancestors of the non-white population.
If we are going to continue to look at the plight of the poor through the prism of race and talk about ancestrial chips on the shoulder then perhaps those with an Irish heritage can claim some benefit from the historical discrimination their ancestors faced in this country (sure, it wasn't slavery, but it wasn't equal and it was quite unfair.) Perhaps we can have a Federal Commission on Historical Racial and Ethnic Grievances and that commission could establish a system for determining how much grovelling one could engage in due to their ancestrial racial, ethnic, and nationalistic heritage. African-Americans would be en led to the most, Hispanics a little less, then perhaps Asians, and last Irish, German, Polish, etc.
Or perhaps we can recognize that this is the 21st Century and if you want to help the poor break the cycle of poverty (which is commendable) then look at them as the poor and stop looking for scapegoats, something which some non-white racial groups have somehow managed to overcome in this racist America which is ruled by the evil dominant white race or whatever.
Good Day.
-MB
Last edited by Marcus Bryant; 12-08-2004 at 10:30 AM.
Damn. I guess racial issues are here to stay. Not that I ever thought they wouldn't be.
Because we are animals and nature, for lack of a better word, takes its course not everyone can be rich or successful. It is the survival of the fittest and there will always be the "have" and the "have nots" as long as there are humans on this earth.
But for many, money doesn't equal happiness or success, so they are content with living their lives on their terms. Some may call them lazy and some may say they have no ambition in life but perhaps their ambitions just don't follow along the "almighty benjamins" theory that so many Americans seem to have these days.
Oh well, live and let live is my motto.
Exactly what I just said Joe! Agreed.
Yes, in a job hiring situation. Interestingly enough, by another minority.Have you personally been discriminated against
Anyhow, that's besides the point.
You guys come into a thread with racial repurcussions from the get go (Read the first article) and then I get lambasted because I'm talking about improovements for minorities.
Insane. I figured you guys knew that a thread that was discussing an African American group would have contained information that pertains to minorities.
Anyhow, Travis, I am with you about 90% on education reform, especialy noting that not everyone is made for college.
I do however believe there needs to be an equalization of money in some respects because quite frankly it benefits EVERYONE to bring the poor up to par.
Oh, and I never said it was off of the GoN. Look at my first freaking post in here. I acknowledge that what Cosby says is CORRECT, you simply have to take it within context.
Duff, Yeah, they made improvements to Jay. I really like the useless marquee outside. I wonder how much money was wasted on that. And that stadium is still up while students in Edgewood and SAISD have pretty ty situations. Buy yeah, I guess after they were done improving all of the schools in the NW area, the finally got around to Jay.
You want to know what upsets me? The mindset of this country that hundreds of years of discrimination, slavery, and acts of agression (See Also: The Mexican American War, The Spanish American War, The Texas Revolution, and The Indian Wars)
have had no repurcussions on Black Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, and others.
Or that somehow we've erased those effects in 40 years of semi equality. I don't define myself by my race by any means. Those of you that know me in person know that I spend more time cracking on myself for being Mexican with funny stereotypes.
However, none of you will ever have the right to decide when I have justified "chip on my shoulder". Why? Because you have not walked my shoes or in my familys shoes.
Not every single one of you have benefited from the racial situation pre1960. Not every single one of you who is anglo is rich or ever had opportunitys that minorities did not.
But some of you have.
Yeah, I'm here to help people of any color or creed, and that will never change. But this discussion has had an effect on me to relalize a bit more how much people are willing to dismiss racial inequality as a non issue.
Last edited by MannyIsGod; 12-08-2004 at 03:37 PM. Reason: because I suck with EZ codes or whatever they are called now.
Oh and MB, you totaly ignored the fact that most Asian Americans have immigrated after the Civil Rights changes of the 60s.
Doesn't matter. What advantages have those non-white immigrants enjoyed, exactly?
So you want to make fun of yourself for being "Mexican" yet you want to be pissed off because once upon a time your grandfather was ridiculed for being...
Manny, if you keep making race an issue, then it will never go away as an issue.
Or..."If you don't quit picking that scab, it will never heal."
As for equalization, I did say that the state funding system does need to be reformed. As do many of the school boards (oversight and such) and district administrations.
But I don't believe in building people up by tearing others down. If that is part of any proposed solution, I will fight it. If your solution is "well, district XYZ needs more money, so district ABC needs to cut the following programs to free up that money", then forget it.
In no way to I want to tear people down Travis, I just feel that some people need extra help and they are en led to the extra help.
I don't want to make race an issue, but it's a very legitimate reason as to WHY those people need the extra help.
I don't agree with Robin Hood, and I stated that above. What people in here don't seem to understand is that I'm not arguing against white people, I am arguing FOR minorities.
How about just arguing for helping low-income citizens?
Advantages? THE ADVANTAGES OF HAVING A MUCH MORE LEVEL PLAYING FEILD!
Good Grief!
So propose something. So far you and I agree on many things that need to be done. How to get there is the problem.
Thats what I'm doing, and thats what I've always done. But this thread was started in the context of what BILL COSBY said.
man, do you have trouble reading? I've said this 304830948320948 times.
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