Bogut takes shot at NBA players, U.S. culture

[RighteousBoy]

"Bogut blames the U.S. culture of greed and arrogance for part of the problem, the newspaper reported."

U.S. called a culture of greed and arrogance, after giving nearly $300 billion in charitable donations in 2007.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/25/cha....ap/index.html

I guess I can't expect him to be the most informed person - could always take him to New Laredo and Southcross, give him a quick education on how alot of the arrogant/greedy americans really live.

[whottt]

awww thats nice! haven't you ever heard about freedom of expression Einstein? its only what your nation is built on. Seriously, some of you folks should start investigating some more on that whole "Land of the free" thing you like to throw around... its not the land of the free from criticism that's for damn sure.

and what he's saying is entirely true, specially in the NBA. Everyone knows it, and those who claim they don't are lying

Why do you have a problem with EssaySpur utilizing his freedom of speech?


Oh I get it...Freedom of speech is a one way street...Bogut is allowed to be critical but we aren't allowed to be critical back...or have an opinion on what he should do...

I get it.


And no...what everyone knows...is it's jealousy, because we frequently get called decadent and arrogant by the most decadent and arrogant countries in the world, that can't handle being surpassed. Socially, economically...technologically. And we are nowhere near as arrogant, elitist, or decadent.


Anyway...many of the things Bogut was being critical of were aspects of the hip hop culture which is largely a black movement...and definitely in terms of origination...

Why doesn't he just say he doesn't like Black People?

I know he's not used to them since they don't have them in Australia...or Argentina...and if they do they probably aren't wealthy.


We already had that culture clash decades ago, and accepted the diffences...to each their own.

[whottt]

"Bogut blames the U.S. culture of greed and arrogance for part of the problem, the newspaper reported."

U.S. called a culture of greed and arrogance, after giving nearly $300 billion in charitable donations in 2007.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/25/cha....ap/index.html

I guess I can't expect him to be the most informed person - could always take him to New Laredo and Southcross, give him a quick education on how alot of the arrogant/greedy americans really live.

They always cite that the US Government doesn't give as great a PCT of it's wealth as a lot of the other mega economies...and they never print the astronomical contributions of the private sector of Americans give...that put us as a country far and away the most charitable country on Earth PCT wise.


And the contributions from the US Citizens completely destroy those of any other citizens countries in the Western World. PCT and Gross.

Good job of finding that info. Doesn't keep us from being hated or called greedy and arrogant(by the greedy and arrogant)...but at least we know they're wrong and are either jealous or uninformed(both is my guess).


My advice...beware of the mega millionaire lecturing you on the evil decadence of greed...he is speaking of the battle in his own heart. Ditto citizens of countries that elect those types of individuals as their leaders.

[Leetonidas]

Why do you have a problem with EssaySpur utilizing his freedom of speech?


Oh I get it...Freedom of speech is a one way street...Bogut is allowed to be critical but we aren't allowed to be critical back...or have an opinion on what he should do...

I get it.


And no...what everyone knows...is it's jealousy, because we frequently get called decadent and arrogant by the most decadent and arrogant countries in the world, that can't handle being surpassed. Socially, economically...technologically. And we are nowhere near as arrogant, elitist, or decadent.


Anyway...many of the things Bogut was being critical of were aspects of the hip hop culture which is largely a black movement...and definitely in terms of origination...

Why doesn't he just say he doesn't like Black People?

I know he's not used to them since they don't have them in Australia...or Argentina...and if they do they probably aren't wealthy.


We already had that culture clash decades ago, and accepted the diffences...to each their own.

My posting history is a lot better than a lot of you s anyway. Most posters wouldn't even know I was 17 unless I actually mentioned it. Besides, I'd take the words of a more respected forum member more to heart than some newbie...

Well said!

You've always been on of my favorites on here ES1001, and based on your posts I never even questioned how old/young you are. I just recently found out, and was quite suprised.

RedLion, you should indeed listen to his post, and learn from it.

So yeah, quit telling me I can't have an opinion and Bogut can.

[Obstructed_View]

Many Australians don't like foreigners, particularly Americans. Since they also don't like black people, American black people are going to be more of a target. Bogut's playing to his audience, and he's got the right to say whatever he likes. Much ado about nothing, IMO.

[whottt]

Many Australians don't like foreigners, particularly Americans. Since they also don't like black people, American black people are going to be more of a target. Bogut's playing to his audience, and he's got the right to say whatever he likes. Much ado about nothing, IMO.

And we've got the right to blast him for his comments...


Why does everyone think freedom of speech only applies to the initial person speaking their mind...

[Leetonidas]

Do they have freedom of speech in Argentina?

[Findog]

Why do you have a problem with EssaySpur utilizing his freedom of speech?


Oh I get it...Freedom of speech is a one way street...Bogut is allowed to be critical but we aren't allowed to be critical back...or have an opinion on what he should do...

I get it.

Uh no. I just happen to disagree with EssaySpur and am telling him so. One can counter by marshaling facts to back up the point they're trying to make, or they can ridicule that which they don't agree with. Free exchange of ideas and all that. Nobody's taking away your right to spout off ignorant, ill-informed and considered opinions, Precious. Tell us how you feel, sweetie.

[resistanze]

@ whottt shutting this thread down.

[whottt]

Uh no. I just happen to disagree with EssaySpur and am telling him so.

I don't give a what you were doing...I don't read your posts.


Why?


Because you can't read for one thing...which pretty much gurantees your opinion to be a stupid and uninformed one...


As in this case...EG: You taking offense at comments not directed at you...that were directed at someone that seemed to have a problem with anyone being critical of Bogut and using their right to free speech to criticize him using his.


Do you get it...stupid?

I wasn't talking to you...you didn't make the comments I was responding too...yet here you are, putting your ass in front of my foot in a colossal act of illiteracy and stupidity.

One can counter by marshaling facts to back up the point they're trying to make, or they can ridicule that which they don't agree with. Free exchange of ideas and all that. Nobody's taking away your right to spout off ignorant, ill-informed and considered opinions, Precious. Tell us how you feel, sweetie.

I feel that you should probably withold your stupid and uninformed opinion, and avoid calling others out, until you learn to read.....

[judaspriestess]

Many Australians don't like foreigners, particularly Americans. Since they also don't like black people, American black people are going to be more of a target. Bogut's playing to his audience, and he's got the right to say whatever he likes. Much ado about nothing, IMO.

This is very, very true. They also don't like Hispanics or Minority women in general. As much as I love foreign men (preferably English) I just hate Australian men because they are jerks. go figure.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Before this thread continues to burrow deeper and deeper, maybe we should all read the original article.

------

http://www.smh.com.au/news/basketbal...e#contentSwap1

The bling and I

June 17, 2007

Although he is surrounded by the trappings of fame, future NBA All-Star Andrew Bogut remains a modest all-Australian boy, David Sygall writes.

In MANY ways they seem a perfect match. An Australian NBA star with a predilection for poker and nice cars, and the United States, a land where success is lauded and riches are flaunted.

But while Andrew Bogut's peers easily drop six figures for a piece of jewellery, indulge in tattoos, outrageous cars, gigantic houses - and exude an at ude to match - Bogut lives a quite different life.

Maybe it's because he's new to this environment of private planes, Hummers and bling. Maybe it's because he's been reared well.

But the 213-centimetre 22-year-old Milwaukee Bucks centre, widely anticipated to become Australia's greatest basketballer, prefers simpler pleasures and the kind of lifestyle that keeps him in touch with his past.

It's not that Bogut forbids himself to enjoy the rewards of his success. But everything's relative.

"I like to go to casinos," he says in a deep but youthful voice. "We have a casino in Milwaukee with a poker room. You don't want to be playing too often, of course, but I probably play once a week."

The poker craze sweeping the US caught Bogut last year. He often plays against "the boys". But he does the real business at the casino. You might expect him to play in a separate room for high rollers and famous people. But he doesn't.

"People know who I am when I walk in," he says. "But I'm not the kind of person to expect a private table. I like to play against regular people. When you sit at a table, for the first half an hour you're an NBA star. But, after that, everyone forgets that and just plays cards. I think that's pretty cool.

"Like anywhere, you get good people and there's the people who want to try to take your money. Some people want to play you so they can talk to you. Others want to try to put you in your place."

Bogut has learnt a lot about humanity over the past couple of years. Well before he became the first Australian player to be nominated the No.1 pick in the NBA's draft, wheelers, dealers and agents besieged him, trying to tap into his huge earning potential.

Finally, he signed with smooth-talking David Bauman, of management group SFX, which looks after some of the game's biggest names, including Kobe Bryant.

Yes, there are massive sponsorship deals being negotiated, even though Bogut has a long way to go to truly live up to the hype. He works in an environment in which modesty is secondary, but some light chat with the massive Melburnian reveals a sportsman proud of his foundations and achievements, one who finds solace in normality in spite of the temptations around him.

"We'll finish practice each day around 2 or 3pm and I'll always have some errands to run before the close of business," he says, explaining his average day when the team isn't travelling. "I'm always sending something back to Australia or getting something repaired.

"Then I'll have a nice meal and relax for a while, maybe play cards or go out with friends for a drink.

"I don't really plan my week. I like to be able to do whatever I feel like doing. Other times I'll just stay home and watch a DVD or get on the internet for a few hours and read about cars, poker players, basketballers, read the Australian newspapers …

"When I arrived they gave me a cheque and I got myself an apartment. I've set myself up pretty comfortably. But I really miss Australia, because I have a house with a backyard.

"I'm looking for a house in Milwaukee because I just got a dog, a husky, and I'm not allowed to keep it in my apartment.

"I always wanted a husky when I was growing up. It's a lot of work and they're hard to look after. But that's all part of it, I guess."

This is an unprecedented insight into the life of one of Australia's most private sports stars. Bogut speaks sharply and with conviction. He is mostly serious but does laugh. The apparently rehearsed lines disappear as he relaxes.

"I don't mind talking to journalists if the questions are different," he says. "It's a chance to get your point across, which is a good thing. It gets a bit hard when you're answering the same questions over and over."

It's questions about Bogut's work environment that get him fired up. His sentiments are well thought out, fearless, yet far from complimentary. He is clearly determined not to get swept up and spat out by the system in which he now finds himself.

"The public's image of NBA players is true," he says. "A lot of them get caught up in the hype and do video clips with rappers and all that crap. They want bling bling all over themselves and drive fast cars. But that's just the way the culture is in America - if you've got it flaunt it and if you don't, you can't."

Bogut catches himself. He bought some nice wheels recently and he collects old cars. His father was in the motor trade and recalls how, as a youngster, he and his father would give the thumbs up to people driving cool cars.

"But that's where it stops for me," he says. "I'm not into jewellery. I've got some earrings but they're not too expensive. There are guys who drop a hundred grand for a chain. The public's got it right - a lot of NBA stars are arrogant and like to spend lots of money and have lots of girlfriends and all that.

"The smarter guys don't do that. They like to live a regular life and want to retire and be set up. About 80 per cent of them go broke by the time they retire or come close to it.

"We have compulsory tutoring each week where they teach you to manage your money and they tell you about all the things that can happen to you, people trying to take advantage of you, but it's amazing how many guys totally ignore it. I guess if you're a normal person and suddenly you're getting $10 million a year, it can go to your head.

"But it's just the culture over there. I would never want my child to be brought up in an environment like that, where if you have money you're supposed to flaunt it and make everyone jealous.

"The American at ude is 'We're the best'. That's why the NBA guys who come from other countries, the Europeans, all sort of stick together away from the game."

Bogut may loathe aspects of American culture. But it's not as though he thinks Australia's tall poppy syndrome is a healthy alternative.

"I don't know why, but people do try to cut you down in Australia," he says. "Look at Lleyton Hewitt. From all the things I read about him, I thought he was an idiot. But then you get to a similar position, being around a big sport, and you start to see things a bit differently.

"Whenever I used to read about Hewitt, I'd read that he was all just for himself. But then you start to have people say that about you and you realise it's just the way the media portrays you and there's nothing much you can do about it."

So, what kind of image would you like people to have of you?

"I'd like people to think of me as someone who works very hard, who has gone through a lot of crossroads along the way," he says.

"I clashed with a lot of coaches and people along the way, I've worked a lot and I'm proud of who I am and where I've got to.

"I don't want to be seen as arrogant but I know that sometimes that's how it will come across. I have a lot of respect for the game and I hope it respects me back.

"There are people who can't accept it when you say that you've given up a lot to get where you are. They only see that you're getting paid millions of dollars to play basketball. But as a 15-year-old it's very different. You can't go out, you have to give up friends, you lose childhood friendships because you don't have any time and suddenly you're left with one or two friends. As a young guy, that's pretty hard to get your head around.

"I always wanted to make it in basketball. But then I missed out on the state team and it was turning into a nightmare. I wondered whether it was all worth it and when I was about 16 I wanted to quit. Before that point my dad had said I could stop if I wanted to. But by that time he'd realised my potential and wouldn't let me give up. It all went from there."

Within four years, Bogut went from Victorian junior team reject to NBA star.

"It is an amazing world I'm living in - more crazy than you think," he says, before recounting the draft, his first real taste of his new life.

"The two days leading up to the draft were ridiculous. When you're a top-10 pick there are so many obligations. You have to do a lot of media, promotions for the NBA, promotions for this, that …

"It was a buzz in a way, but I'd never want to relive it."

Our conversation is over and we now know this giant of Australian sport a little better. "One more thing," he says, before saying goodbye. "Can you let me know when this story's going in the paper? I want to let my mum know."

Source: The Sun-Herald

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

For those saying Bogut hasn't done anything to say anything, at what point can a player speak out about something in your eyes?

Ira Newble is trying to raise awareness of the genocide in Darfur, I don't remember him on any All-NBA teams.

EDIT: I'd missed Findog's earlier statement with the same point. What he said.

[Obstructed_View]

And we've got the right to blast him for his comments...

Of course you do.

Why does everyone think freedom of speech only applies to the initial person speaking their mind...

What on earth would make you think that I thought that?

Actually, I was matching his over-generalization with one of my own. I didn't know I could be subtle, let alone TOO subtle.

[E20]

Well one fact that everybody has to accept is that USA is the greediest country in the World, but does greed always have to be a bad thing? Excessive greed yes, but some greed, leads to innovation, new industry, new jobs/more for the economy, more wealth and easier ways of living. So, my point is that America is number 1, because they are greedy and are never satisfied, which leads to new ways of doing to make new jobs/inventions, so it goes around. And I'm not talking about trickle-down economics, but something else.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

If he doesn't like it then he should take his ass back to Australia. I don't necessarily disagree with Bogut, but what's next?

So where will we be telling you to take your ass back to?

[Findog]

I don't give a what you were doing...I don't read your posts.

I generally don't care what you do either, but it IS annoying to scroll through your diarrhea to get to more worthwhile comments.

Why?

I don't recall asking. Thanks for sharing though, Precious.

You taking offense at comments not directed at you..

.

No, correcting the record. Nobody is muzzling EssaySpur. Just arguing with him. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with basic concepts of literacy.

Do you get it...stupid?

You seem angry. Off your meds?

I wasn't talking to you...you didn't make the comments I was responding too...yet here you are, putting your ass in front of my foot in a colossal act of illiteracy and stupidity.

I didn't realize you were the forum etiquette police and I can't weigh in on one side of an exchange, especially considering I had taken the same position earlier in the thread as those with whom EssaySpur was debating. You accused others of attempting to "silence" and "muzzle" EssaySpur when all they were doing is arguing on the high road and ridiculing him on the low road.

I feel that you should probably withold your stupid and uninformed opinion, and avoid calling others out, until you learn to read.....

And I feel that you should seek the immediate attention of a cognitive behavioral therapist if you are this argumentative and angry offline. Good luck with your various pathologies, Sweetcakes.

[Kamnik]

It is hard for Americans (at least some of them) to accept how their general culture is percieved in the world.

I basicly agree with Bogut and one of the things why i am the Spurs fan is their mentality. I got on board when Spurs signed Rasho.

But the class (Pop,Tim,everyone...), modesty, skill and organisation is what i truly respect in this organisation.

Tim Duncan is GOD! Rich as , skilled as but damn modest and doesnt feel the need to showcase anything. (except his uber basketball skills )


Anyways... I am from Slovenia. Culture here is diferent. (lived in socialism 20 years ago) But the crazy capitalistic culture is more and more common.

People here buy cars with huge loans just so they can showcase them to their friends, neighbours etc.

I find that sick and replusing.



Money is the important so you can take care of your family, materalistic needs (normal ones) etc. Maybe even a bit of luxury sometimes. But not because you feel you need to show it to the others.



Do you think Tim Duncan would swap for rings for a billion dollars?

Happines he probably gets with his children for a hundred extra billion?



Bogut surely isnt perfect as isnt any of us. But man speaks the truth. He would love playing for the Spurs.



Oh another thing..... Do players in bad/loosing teams showcase and bling more than those in wining situations? (on average) I think they do.

Succes and positive image can be as much as a lure and motivator than the allmighty $$$.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Well one fact that everybody has to accept is that USA is the greediest country in the World, but does greed always have to be a bad thing? Excessive greed yes, but some greed, leads to innovation, new industry, new jobs/more for the economy, more wealth and easier ways of living. So, my point is that America is number 1, because they are greedy and are never satisfied, which leads to new ways of doing to make new jobs/inventions, so it goes around. And I'm not talking about trickle-down economics, but something else.

I think the point others are trying to make is that the U.S. isn't the only country with innovation, new industry and job growth. I know you're not saying that specifically, but your statements tend to lend credence to the thought that Americans don't recognize the quality of life beyond our borders.

[Kamnik]

Well one fact that everybody has to accept is that USA is the greediest country in the World, but does greed always have to be a bad thing? Excessive greed yes, but some greed, leads to innovation, new industry, new jobs/more for the economy, more wealth and easier ways of living. So, my point is that America is number 1, because they are greedy and are never satisfied, which leads to new ways of doing to make new jobs/inventions, so it goes around. And I'm not talking about trickle-down economics, but something else.

there is truth in what you wrote

there are many good things in greed (capitalism)


problem is that the wealth, power and innovation get used SO WRONG

per say.... looking at the ammount of money used by world armies combined is ing incredible; if that would be turned to better purposes world could be a "heaven" (not that this is possible bu nevertheless)

and per say.... (i dont know the exact information) i believe a big part of the population in the states doesnt have general medical insurance (meaning you are screwed if anything serious happens to you)




for most of us (im guessing im not alone) Bush is an obviouss puppet of some people/organisations in the background who are basicly all about greed

a poster boy, a spokesman

and to understand why most of the world sees America as Bogut does is we have a hard time understanding how a man like that can be elected for the second time

[whottt]

For those saying Bogut hasn't done anything to say anything, at what point can a player speak out about something in your eyes?

Ira Newble is trying to raise awareness of the genocide in Darfur, I don't remember him on any All-NBA teams.

EDIT: I'd missed Findog's earlier statement with the same point. What he said.

Kids a millionaire, here for the money, whose hobby seems to be throwing his money away on cars and gambling.

He can say he's better than all the greedy famous millionaries in the NBA all he wants...

He's just going to look like a when he himself is one, when he himself took the path to instant wealth...and that's just the way it is.


In short...I'll be more impressed with his depth and social awareness when he's doing something more than taking the money, buying cars, and gambling.


Until then...this guy is a country boy that can't handle living in a culturally and ethnically diverse country like America. He hasn't had to do that living in Australia...

[E20]

I think the point others are trying to make is that the U.S. isn't the only country with innovation, new industry and job growth. I know you're not saying that specifically, but your statements tend to lend credence to the thought that Americans don't recognize the quality of life beyond our borders.

Oh, no I totally agree that innovation is found all over the industralized world, but what makes America's economy a cut above the rest? I think it's the fact that we're never satisfied with what we have and we always need that new jacket or shoe or game or TV. And with us so eagerly wanting to spend, business in America never stops in finding new ways of having us to empty our wallets. I think that quote "America's buisness is buisness" sums it up.

[whottt]

I guess I agree with Kamnik, Bogut and Blaze...


Black people need to start acting white. Like they do in Australia(the two that live there). Edit: And Argentina...these guys come from countries where many cultures and skin colors live together in perfect harmony...

[Kamnik]

I know you're not saying that specifically, but your statements tend to lend credence to the thought that Americans don't recognize the quality of life beyond our borders.

good point

i see "happines" as the ultimate currency in every persons life (in my life)

and this can be achieved by people somewhere in remote places where they maybe dont even have runing water from the pipes

they live long, happy and without much stress


and most of the world is just just pushing in the BIGGER, MORE and "BETTER" direction with a crazy pace

i sometimes feel pushed in this direction (getting an university education, later a job with a good salary);
but in the end.... you can be just depressed by all the pressure, stress, etc.

[timvp]

I guess Bogut has to do whatever it takes to shift the focus away from the fact that a number one overall draft pick is putting up Rasho numbers for a team that can't win 30 games in the Eastern Conference.