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nothing a little prayer can't handle.
I tend to view this as "they're more organized and political", not "they're growing in number"...their religious world views require and exceptional effort on their part to insulate themselves from an increasingly secular world; that doesn't make for a sustainable movement in a free society.
nothing a little prayer can't handle.
"dumbfnck Christians planning to overthrow democracy, install fascist theocracy "
You know for someone who complains incessently about the Bush Administration and how bad republicans are (I'm not one), this kind of thread topic is just disgusting. Would you be calling for Yoni or Xray's heads if they posted a topic like
"dumbfnck Jews( or Muslims/Liberals/Women/etc) planning to overthrow democracy, install fascist theocracy"
That kind of intolerance and hate is disgusting. You're not gaining any new supporters with your angry curse laden tirades either. If your point is to influence and change minds on this board (I can't think of any other reason to engage in debates here if you aren't) you are doing a poor job of it.
Boutons does a poor job of gaining "supporters" no matter what he/she says.
Its not that boutons is stupid or ignorant or even wrong, its that the vitriol that is constantly spewed in every post outweighs whatever fact lies within.
He would be a better speech-contributor than mouthpiece.
You must be joking...
Isaiah 1:20 "But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."
Isaiah 1:21 "Therefore saith the LORD, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies."
Jeremiah 21: "And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath."
That doesn't sound much like love, humility, and wholesome things. It speaks also of the sword, anger, fury, and vengeance.
Look man this is just a pissing contest and we're not gonna win. I know all the quotes I have are taken out of context just like the ones you have are also taken out of context. Let's just disagree...it's easy to make generalizations...but I never made any about Christianity like you did about Islam.
I know that both books say some messed up things..and it's not all love and peace.
The OT was rendered "inoperative" by Jesus and his NT revolution.
Got any New Testament references?
None of those verses imply or state to preach by the sword. Show me some verses that do the latter. And I know for a fact that you need to read the whole passage before just quoting those verses.
Here, I'll post the verses before the ones you posted:
Isaiah 15-20:
"...Your hands are full of blood; wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow. Come now, let us reason together (says the Lord),. Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land, but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword."
Sounds like God is trying to correct a corrupt people and make them moral. Maybe I'm interpreting wrong?
Isaiah 1:21 does not say what you stated....
In Jeremiah 21, again, God is angry because of the evil and corruption taking place.
Also, you did generalize Christianity, just as I "generalized Islam". You stated/implied that Jesus camps were the equivalent of terrorist camps...so all people who go to Jesus camps are terrorists? Sounds like a generalization to me. And I wouldn't say any of my arguement contains a generalization; we are talking about a religion (Islam) that tells its followers to preach by the sword, fight those who believe different, and that Christians/Jews are the enemies. The Muslims who don't act like that technically aren't being good Muslims, according to their bible, the Koran. In the verses I quoted, it specifically established that anyone who befriends Christians/Jews and does not fight them is an abomination to Allah. What more do you want? Islam was intended for its followers to preach by the sword, and from what I've read about it, it advocates nothing but violence. Thankfully not all Muslims are violent and hateful; however, it is ironic that many want peace when their religion clearly tells them differently....
And could you show me the verses before the ones I quoted?
Or ignore it. There are all kinds of radical fringe groups in this country, from the KKK to Aryan Nations, to Black Panthers to the Earth Liberation Front. None are big enough or important enough to make a huge difference in recent history. History also proves than most Americans are somewhere in the middle of left and right and far away from the fringe. There's always going to be nut jobs. Just ignore 'em.
Where exactly did you find this translation?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.
That page has three different translations...and none of them say anything about Jew or Christian.
I didn't say they were equivalent...but I did say that it's pretty much like that. It would take only a nudge to make them as radical as some of these terrorists camps.
No Muslim is a bad Muslim if he abstains from violence. It says so itself in the Koran.
You want me to admit that those quotes are out of context? I'll admit it...just like yours are. They are just one sentence....just like yours are. I also am questioning parts of your translations because the link I gave you doesn't say any of the things you said.
You're never gonna believe what I believe. You already have your mind made up about everything. I'm not gonna convince you otherwise so I'm just done with this arguement.
I can admit that both books Bible and Koran say things that can be interpreted differently, just like your interpretation of Isaiah doesn't say anything about the sword or whatever.
I'm not gonna write off anybody who says they are Christian Jew or Muslim. I know that none of these religions are preaching violence.
I forgot, some website. I guess they were wrong, and obviously out of context. I could probably give you exact verses if I actually took the time to research and read the Koran, but I'm not going to press it any more, because you dont want to discuss it any more.
Agreed.You're never gonna believe what I believe. You already have your mind made up about everything. I'm not gonna convince you otherwise so I'm just done with this arguement.
I wouldn't mind discussing it but it's not gonna get anywhere anyway. Like I said you have already made up your mind about everything. So it doesn't matter....it was a good discussion.
Yeah, I know. It's pointless if neither of us want to change our minds. I love to debate religion/faith.
You mean you cannot fully interpret a verse out of context? It takes knowledge of other parts of the text, as well as an understanding of the theology behind it?
Unless of course a conservative Christian in the West is trying to interpret the Koran to say that Islam demands violence. Then none of that applies, and it is fine to take verses out of context. You can even make up verses.
And then there's the passage where the LORD rejects Saul as king because he showed mercy:
But faithful Samuel obeyed:
No, I mean the New Testament represented a new covenant with God's people -- no longer just Jews but all who believed in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
This new covenant is founded on the "Greatest Commandment" and the "Great Commission" found first in the Gospel of Matthew.
The "Great Commandment" reads:
The "Great Commission" reads:
There are no such distinction between an Old and New Covenant in the Koran and Muslims aren't called to peacefully "convert" infidels. They are called to convert them, kill them, or subject them to dhimmitude.
No they aren't. Nevertheless...there is no such thing as the word infidel in the Koran. It means unbeliever or pagan...as in the polytheists that were around at the time.
Likewise...the word jihad...does not mean holy war.
Now you want to argue semantics? If you like the word "unbeliever" better, fine. Their Koran calls on them to convert unbelievers, kill unbelievers, or subject them to dhimmitude.
Better?
If it makes you feel better Yoni then fine. Just know that not all of us throw away religions that we don't know anything about.The primary aim of jihad is not the conversion of non-Muslims to Islam by force, but rather Establishing justice on earth, spreading and defense of the Islamic state. In the classical manuals of Islamic jurisprudence, the rules associated with armed warfare are covered at great length. Such rules include not killing women, children and non-combatants, as well as not damaging cultivated or residential areas.
So, you can't interpret a verse in the Old Testament correctly without reading it in light of the New Testament, and being familar with the theology of the Old and New Covenants.
Thanks for agreeing with me.
You've claimed that for years despite knowing next to nothing about the total Koranic text, nor how it is interpreted in Islamic theology. This is part of a movement on the right to convince people that Islam is inherently a defective, violent religion, which must ostensibly be wiped from the Earth in order for Christians to be safe.
Sure you can. The Great Commandment and the Great Commission can both stand on their own and, in fact, I would argue that all other passages of the Bible -- Old and New Testament -- should be read in the context of how they relate to the Gospels.
That you think there is agreement doesn't speak well of your ability to read and understand the words of another.
Are there peaceful Muslims? Absolutely.
But, in order for Muslims to peacefully adhere to their religion they have to pervert the Koran and ignore those passages that call for violence.
Are there violent Christians? Absolutely.
But, in order for Christians to be violent they have to pervert their Holy Bible and completely ignore the two fundamental principles I just posted.
It really is that simple.
Please, disabuse me of this notion.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...175987,00.htmlBecause the Koran was revealed in the context of an all-out war, several passages deal with the conduct of armed struggle. Warfare was a desperate business on the Arabian Peninsula. A chieftain was not expected to spare survivors after a battle, and some of the Koranic injunctions seem to share this spirit. Muslims are ordered by God to "slay [enemies] wherever you find them!" (4: 89). Extremists such as Osama bin Laden like to quote such verses but do so selectively. They do not include the exhortations to peace, which in almost every case follow these more ferocious passages: "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them" (4: 90).
In the Koran, therefore, the only permissible war is one of self-defense. Muslims may not begin hostilities (2: 190). Warfare is always evil, but sometimes you have to fight in order to avoid the kind of persecution that Mecca inflicted on the Muslims (2: 191; 2: 217) or to preserve decent values (4: 75; 22: 40). The Koran quotes the Torah, the Jewish scriptures, which permits people to retaliate eye for eye, tooth for tooth, but like the Gospels, the Koran suggests that it is meritorious to forgo revenge in a spirit of charity (5: 45). Hostilities must be brought to an end as quickly as possible and must cease the minute the enemy sues for peace (2: 192-3).
So, how do Muslims define "war" and "self-defense" and "hostilities" and "peace?"
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