82 Games Defensive Ratings

[sabar]

timvp is a damn good debater, he could run for public office.

[diego]

my 2 cents:

manu and bowen play opposite defensive styles. manu plays the risky anticpication game, and he does it extremely well (see how many post entry passes manu deflects every game- i rarely see other guards bother to defend this pass). of course, charges, steals, blocks, rebounds are easier to keep track of in stats so manu is ranked high.

bruce on the other hand hardly gambles because he can stay with anyone and herd them away from comfort zones. he is rarely boxing out because hes covering the shooter, so he doesnt get many rebounds either. his style is harder, and its effect is much bigger even though it doesnt come out in stats.

no doubt manu is getting credit for bruce's work in the ranking, also for duncan's work. no doubt tony and horry are getting credit for bruce and duncan, and the coaching staff for that matter. in the end defense is about a system and we have a good one.

as far as tony, his style is more similar to bruce, but he isnt as good at it (mostly because hes smaller than most players in the league) and he isnt as tenacious on the defensive end as bruce or manu.

so i can see why timvp would prefer tony since hes in the bruce mold, but i think manu pulls off the risky style well enough to be more valuable than tony on the defensive end.

[SRJ]

5. Btw, your repeated insistence on splitting up one-on-one defense and team defense is getting tiresome. One-on-one defense doesn't mean anything. If you think in an empty gym that Tony can ever stop Nash or Bruce can stop Carmelo, you're crazy. David Robinson is the authority on this, and he said in an interview in SI long ago that for a good player, it's not really hard to score one-on-one against anybody. If you're a top 30, top 40 player, you have too many moves, too many weapons, the advantage of knowing what you're gonna do where the defender can only guess or react. To go back to the football analogy, even the best NFL shutdown corner is only expected to stay with his guy for 3 or 4 seconds. After that, anybody, even Champ Bailey, will get beat. So really, it doesn't matter if you're talking about Bruce or Tony or Manu or whoever. They all have the same job on defense, force their guy to take contested jumpers, funnel them toward their weak hand, help out a beat en teammate, and communicate with Tim (who makes the whole thing work).

I've always wanted to make this same point, but I never could do it as succinctly as you have done here, aaronstampler. Well done.

I won't say that one-on-one defense means nothing, but it's overrated.

[anakha]

I don't have time to respond to the rest of your post right now. But don't worry, I will later.

As far as the IM chat, who backed down like a ho after I called them out? That'd be you. I confronted you about something you wrote that was way out of line. You ended up deleting it. And I kissed your ass?

If you really want to go there, let's go there. People can see what kind of low life coward you really are.

A catfight picture on this thread would just about make my day.

[timvp]

1. For the third time, if a formula comes up with Duncan, Horry, Bruce, Manu, and Tony ranked as high defensively for their positions as this one did, then it stands to reason that it's not that bad of a formula. Either invent a better one where Tony and Bruce finish 1st each at SF and PG and Manu 20th at SG, or shut the up about it already. It's just like your criticisms of +/-. You say it doesn't mean a whole lot, but look who finished 1st, 2nd, and 3rd: Duncan, Dirk, and Nash, only the three MVP candidates in the league.

Your Manu homerness is off the charts. A formula ranks him high so the formula is good? That's what you are basically telling me. You don't care that you have no idea what 1/3rd of the formula even consists of, but it's alright with you regardless.

And where have I criticized +/-? I'm the biggest and one of the original proponents of +/- on the board.

2. Oh my god. When have I ever said that I think Manu is a better defender than Bruce? You keep putting words in my mouth. I'm aware that Bruce's contributions to the team are much higher than his stats would suggest. All I said was that he had his small defensive slumps in the regular season so I can see where the 8th place ranking was coming from. I'd still rather have him guarding a guy if my life depended on it than anyone else in the league.

Do I have to piece together all your thoughts? You say you can "understand" Bowen's placement, while Ginobili is a little too high. There's a bigger disparity between the two in that formula than those comments indicate.

I think where you are confused is that you think I agree with all the rankings in the formula. I don't. Bruce is too low and Manu is too high. I've already said this. I'm just saying I don't disagree with them as much as you do, primarily, because as I've written before, as a whole they're pretty much in the ballpark and I appreciate that at least someone is trying. That's the difference between you and me. I appreciate the effort of this and you just slag it.

No, the difference is I breakdown the formula to figure out how it came about. You see Manu near the top and blindly think it's great.

3. It's getting annoying, having to repeatedly read your argument that Manu isn't a good one-on-one defender because Bruce takes the top guy. Bruce takes the top guy because he is the best defender in the league. Even if Manu was the second best defender in the NBA, (which he isn't) nothing would change because Bruce would still take the top guy. I mean, this logic is so twisted it's insane. It's like saying that if Kevin Garnett were on the team he'd only be the 2nd best power forward on the Spurs. While technically the statement is true, it has no context at all. Manu would be the best perimeter defender on most of the teams in the NBA. Just not the one he plays on. Also, as numerous posters have pointed out to you, his work on the other end is pretty damn valuable, so Pop and co. in the suits probably don't want to tire or foul him out on defense. For the same reason, Tim rarely guards the opponents best big man. Bruce doesn't need much energy to stand in the corners every offensive possession.

Again, if Manu were the top five shooting guard one-on-one defenders, why does he never guard anyone of consequence unless he absolutely has to? Other players who have played next to Bowen have been able to cut into some of the assignments. Hedo was many times the primary defender against players like LeBron and Artest. Parker has been put on players like Iverson and Wade. Devin Brown even became the primary defender on Kobe in a couple playoff games. Just show me one instance where Pop has decided to put Manu on a star player in a situation other than when Bowen is getting his customary rest on the bench.

And again, this isn't even saying Manu isn't a good defender. Despite all of the players he primarily guarded in the playoffs scoring more against him and all the players Parker guarded scoring less, I still rank them as around the same level of overall defender. It's just that you are so blind to Manu flaw that you can't even admit something that is plain as day.

4. Wait, the best scorer in the NBA got hot on Manu? Holy , Manu must suck then. Once again, no context. I guess you forget that the only reason we even beat the Lakers once the whole season is because Manu blocked Kobe's jumper at the end of regulation in Los Angeles. Show me another Spur who can make that play.

Manu is the only Spur who can make that play?

Classic.

5. Btw, your repeated insistence on splitting up one-on-one defense and team defense is getting tiresome. One-on-one defense doesn't mean anything. If you think in an empty gym that Tony can ever stop Nash or Bruce can stop Carmelo, you're crazy. David Robinson is the authority on this, and he said in an interview in SI long ago that for a good player, it's not really hard to score one-on-one against anybody. If you're a top 30, top 40 player, you have too many moves, too many weapons, the advantage of knowing what you're gonna do where the defender can only guess or react. To go back to the football analogy, even the best NFL shutdown corner is only expected to stay with his guy for 3 or 4 seconds. After that, anybody, even Champ Bailey, will get beat. So really, it doesn't matter if you're talking about Bruce or Tony or Manu or whoever. They all have the same job on defense, force their guy to take contested jumpers, funnel them toward their weak hand, help out a beat en teammate, and communicate with Tim (who makes the whole thing work).

This is like the third grader take on the Spurs defense. You seriously think that when Bowen is playing against a star player that has the same defensive responsibilities when Manu is guarding a lesser player?

There's is a huge difference between their responsibilities in the team defense concept. Ginobili, since he's matched up against a sub par player usually, has much more freedom to leave his man. He can rotate early. He can go double early. Even if he's on the strong side, Ginobili has a lot of freedom.

Bowen, on the other hand, has to stay much more keyed in on his opponent. He can rotate in the team defensive setting, but only if he's coming from the weakside and there is a player close enough to him to rotate to his man. Bowen doesn't rotate from the strong side no matter who he is guarding.

It's two entirely different roles. You seem to be under the impression that Bowen, Ginobili and Parker have interchangeable roles and rules on the defensive end and that's far from the truth.

6. I'm not wrong about Horry. I don't want him to shoot the ball, ever. And I'm not too thrilled about having a guy on the team who clearly doesn't want to be on the court for most of the regular season games. He's like the posterchild for regular season apathy. His comment that he'd rather be a superstar who had Barkley's career rather than the role player with all the rings left me very cold. If that's what he really wanted for himself, than perhaps he should have stuck his nose in there and tried to score and rebound like a 6'11 guy instead of spending his whole career camped behind the three point line like a big wuss.

A big wuss with seven championship rings, hater.

You can go around bashing other players on the Spurs. Yet if I point out half of a flaw Manu might have, you go ballistic.

7. A great flopper who begs for calls and a poor one-on-one defender. Yup, you're clearly a charter member of the Manu Ginobili fan club. As the saying goes, "With friends like you..." Maybe it'd be better if you didn't ever write about him.

Holy crap. Are you denying that Manu flops? Even the most hardcore Manu homer can admit that Manu is a great flopper.

And again, that's a compliment. I wish everyone on the Spurs could flop like Manu. Parker is one of the worst floppers I've ever seen ... and it's a big reason why he doesn't find himself on the line more often. Duncan is also a pretty bad flopper.

This is Manu homerism to a new level.

8. Saying Tim Duncan is the best player in the league but that he didn't deserve the 2005 Finals MVP are not contradictory statements. He was playing with two bad ankles that year so he clearly wasn't at his best. If you couldn't tell the difference between '05 postseason Duncan and '07 postseason Duncan, I don't know what to tell you. It boggles my mind that he won the award vs the Pistons but not Cleveland when he was clearly better in this series than that one. He got the MVP in '05 because he had some decent scoring games in blowout losses (with awful - for him - shooting percentages though) and because Manu wasn't engaged to some ABC star.

Tim is one of the top ten players to ever play, but to suggest, rationally, that he played better in the '05 Finals than Ginobili is absurd. Manu was the best player on the floor in 3 of the 4 wins, and Horry was in the other. To me, if you want to give Duncan the award in '05, fine, you give it to him because of defense/rebounding/leadership/team's best player. Well how did any of those things change in '07? Either Manu should have won it in '05 or Tim should have in '07. You even agree with me on the latter part of that, so I don't understand why we're arguing. All I'm asking for is some consistency from the voters.

I'm the one who pointed out his defense and rebounding in 2005 as a being a big reason why he won. You scoffed at it. Now all of a sudden it's "fine"? I guess since The Antichrist won Finals MVP, your position has changed.

And fess up to your take that Horry was better than Duncan in the 2005 Finals. That was one of your more embarrassing takes. Don't back off of it now.

9. I'm perfectly aware you jumped off the Marcus Williams bandwagon very quickly. But I'm also aware that you were the one who started the Marcus Williams bandwagon. Great athlete, good scorer, yadda, yadda, yadda. We should have drafted a backup point guard, but this FO clearly is not interested in playing anyone under 30 except for Tony.

Link to where I started the Marcus Williams bandwagon. You got mad because you though I was comparing him to Manu, remember?

A post-Bowen swingman rotation of Ginobili, Nocioni, White and Williams would cover just about ever possible attribute. You'd have the heart (Ginobili), the toughness (Nocioni), the athlete (White) and the playmaker (Williams).

More like the guy who's really good (Ginobili), the guy who's pretty good (Nocioni), the guy who's decent (White), and the guy who'll suck out loud (Williams).

Relax. Everyone on earth knows Manu is by far the best of that foursome. He doesn't need to be put on a pedestal every time his name is mentioned. It's a given he's great.

How was that starting the Williams bandwagon? You can to Manu's rescue again like you always do and saw the word "Williams". That's the end of that story.

Bottomline is I've said repeatedly that Manu is a good overall defender. When he's playing like he was playing against the Cavs, he's the second best perimeter defender on the Spurs. Repeat, second best perimeter defender on the Spurs.

But, again, his strong suit isn't one-on-one defense. If he's matched up against a scorer, the other team attacks that matchup instantly. For that reason, Pop rarely puts him against an elite scorer unless he absolutely has to. If you want to argue that Manu is a good one-on-one defender, you aren't only arguing against me, you're arguing against Pop.

Manu is a great player. He's my favorite player on the team to watch. His will to win and the fact that he does whatever it takes for the team to improve makes him my favorite player on the team. I think he tries harder than anyone on the team and he'd put his life on the line to try to win a game. I respect Ginobili as a player as much as anyone can be respected.

That said, he isn't flawless. One of the few areas in which he isn't perfect is one-on-one defense. But that's fine because the Spurs have other players who can fill that void. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't a void to be filled.

Stop being the ultimate Manu homer for a second and accept for once that Manu isn't the world's first flawless sportsman.




P.S.

And you can stop with your insistence that I turned people on this board against you. You are a huge Manu homer and there are a number of other huge Manu homers who will gladly stand next to you in battle. You aren't the first and you won't be the last ultimate Manu homer who thinks that Manu is God's gift to basketball. You'll always have plenty of support on your homeristic takes.

[timvp]

The best post I've read in while in this site.

I remember when I could debate regarding Manu with Rick Von Braun without the person I'm arguing with melting down into some hissy fit. Rick Von Braun always kept it about basketball and it didn't get personal

Although, I have to claim scoreboard on our epic conversations whether the Spurs are better with Manu in the starting lineup or coming off the bench.

[timvp]

my 2 cents:

manu and bowen play opposite defensive styles. manu plays the risky anticpication game, and he does it extremely well (see how many post entry passes manu deflects every game- i rarely see other guards bother to defend this pass). of course, charges, steals, blocks, rebounds are easier to keep track of in stats so manu is ranked high.

bruce on the other hand hardly gambles because he can stay with anyone and herd them away from comfort zones. he is rarely boxing out because hes covering the shooter, so he doesnt get many rebounds either. his style is harder, and its effect is much bigger even though it doesnt come out in stats.

no doubt manu is getting credit for bruce's work in the ranking, also for duncan's work. no doubt tony and horry are getting credit for bruce and duncan, and the coaching staff for that matter. in the end defense is about a system and we have a good one.

as far as tony, his style is more similar to bruce, but he isnt as good at it (mostly because hes smaller than most players in the league) and he isnt as tenacious on the defensive end as bruce or manu.

Well said. I can agree with most of that.

so i can see why timvp would prefer tony since hes in the bruce mold, but i think manu pulls off the risky style well enough to be more valuable than tony on the defensive end.

The thing is I never said I prefer Tony's defense. Again, I rate them as about the same level of effectiveness defensively. stampler tries to twist it into a Ginobili vs. Parker thing when I'm on record as saying they are very close in terms of overall defensive ability.

But yeah, thanks for being able to tell the difference between the defense that Bowen plays and the defense that Manu plays. stampler is under the impression that they play the same type of defense

[aaronstampler]

I never said Manu doesn't have weaknesses. You just accuse me of thinking that way, LJ.

You want a list of weaknesses, here you go...

1. Crappy mid-range jumper, especially off his dribble. (Tony too, they both shoot perimeter shots a lot better off a pass and catch than when they're pulling up.)

2. Will take the occasional game off, mentally (especially a road Eastern game or a home contest against some crap no-chance team).

3. Doesn't play aggressively all the time offensively, sometimes falls in love with the 3 pointer.

4. Too unselfish at times, doesn't have a "pass me the ing ball" personality. If that side ever comes out, it's usually in the 4th quarter of a tight game.

5. Low endurance, usually maxes out at 32 mins a night.

6. Doesn't take it upon himself to have a big scoring night unless Tim or Tony are having off nights.

7. Prone to the occasional dumb turnover.

8. Less disciplined and more individualistic on defense than offense, for good and bad.

9. Takes at least 3 shots a game that have no chance whatsoever, which can be a problem when you only get 6 or 8 shots some games.

10. "Only" the third best defender on the team.

11. Repeatedly denies LJ's request to wife swap for a weekend, and by the 4th time TimVP asked, he stopped being polite about it.

12. He's too damn dreamy.

13. Refuses to release rap album.

14. Doesn't like baseball or football.

15. He could update his website more often, especially the English parts.

16. A couple of his Gatorade commercials are wicked .

17. Sometimes, in his interviews, he's too charming. Stop trying so hard. You're not Brent Barry, you can actually play.

18. Where does he get off not being an American?

19. Not married to an ABC celebrity. If only he was engaged to Patrick Dempsey, he'd have won the 2005 Finals MVP.

20. His autograph is impossible to make out.

[polandprzem]

So is manu a better defender then Ginobili or not?

[stéphane]

I never said Manu doesn't have weaknesses. You just accuse me of thinking that way, LJ.

You want a list of weaknesses, here you go...

1. Crappy mid-range jumper, especially off his dribble. (Tony too, they both shoot perimeter shots a lot better off a pass and catch than when they're pulling up.)

2. Will take the occasional game off, mentally (especially a road Eastern game or a home contest against some crap no-chance team).

3. Doesn't play aggressively all the time offensively, sometimes falls in love with the 3 pointer.

4. Too unselfish at times, doesn't have a "pass me the ing ball" personality. If that side ever comes out, it's usually in the 4th quarter of a tight game.

5. Low endurance, usually maxes out at 32 mins a night.

6. Doesn't take it upon himself to have a big scoring night unless Tim or Tony are having off nights.

7. Prone to the occasional dumb turnover.

8. Less disciplined and more individualistic on defense than offense, for good and bad.

9. Takes at least 3 shots a game that have no chance whatsoever, which can be a problem when you only get 6 or 8 shots some games.

10. "Only" the third best defender on the team.

11. Repeatedly denies LJ's request to wife swap for a weekend, and by the 4th time TimVP asked, he stopped being polite about it.

12. He's too damn dreamy.

13. Refuses to release rap album.

14. Doesn't like baseball or football.

15. He could update his website more often, especially the English parts.

16. A couple of his Gatorade commercials are wicked .

17. Sometimes, in his interviews, he's too charming. Stop trying so hard. You're not Brent Barry, you can actually play.

18. Where does he get off not being an American?

19. Not married to an ABC celebrity. If only he was engaged to Patrick Dempsey, he'd have won the 2005 Finals MVP.

20. His autograph is impossible to make out.

man STFU already
you're such a weak ass...

[stéphane]

oh and by the way, I love manu and it's very sad for him to have such unknowledgeable fans. And keep hating horry, but first tell me the last player you've seen put a performance like he did at the end of regulation and OT in game 5 of the 2005 finals. I was so shocked it was really jordanesque.
You're really one of the worst poster at ST.
sincerely yours

[thousandth]

So is manu a better defender then Ginobili or not?

Bottomline is I've said repeatedly that Manu is a good overall defender. When he's playing like he was playing against the Cavs, he's the second best perimeter defender on the Spurs. Repeat, second best perimeter defender on the Spurs.

But, again, his strong suit isn't one-on-one defense. If he's matched up against a scorer, the other team attacks that matchup instantly. For that reason, Pop rarely puts him against an elite scorer unless he absolutely has to. If you want to argue that Manu is a good one-on-one defender, you aren't only arguing against me, you're arguing against Pop.

Manu is a great player. He's my favorite player on the team to watch. His will to win and the fact that he does whatever it takes for the team to improve makes him my favorite player on the team. I think he tries harder than anyone on the team and he'd put his life on the line to try to win a game. I respect Ginobili as a player as much as anyone can be respected.

I agree.
Nobody needs say more words. Thanks, timvp, to teach us.
I like a lot your game's grades and your lesson about bsk. But, are you (and aaronstampler and...) have a life out the forum? have a lovely summer?
Kidding, bro, I kidding.

[diego]

The thing is I never said I prefer Tony's defense.

oops. i didnt bother to read the 2nd half of page 1, just the replies in page 2. from aaron's posts i thought that was where the argument originated

[waly.mg]

I have a couple of comments

I remeber one Press Conference of Michael Jordan

Q - How you can score more than 30 Points a game?

A - Is too easy, 3 FGM and 2 FTM each Quarter

Tony every season score more and in every season Shoot more

In the PO Tony took 329 2 Points shots and Manu 148, TD 334

If you shoot more times always you are going to score more

In the Past we always play 4 Down, now with TP in the field we generally call the Play 9

Play 9:

1 - The PG takes the ball and tries to penetrate when coming out of a Pick and roll

2 - If he cannot come back to look for another pick and roll

3 - When coming out of the P&R tries to penetrate again

4 - Repeat steps 2 and 3, until they lack 10 seconds, this time if you can´t tries to shoot from outside

5 - If the PG doesn´t have the shot, looks for a teammate so that he is not the one who takes a difficult shot

6 - If the PG can take the shot, no one Teammate touch the ball in the Play

[thousandth]

I have a couple of comments

I remeber one Press Conference of Michael Jordan

Q - How you can score more than 30 Points a game?

A - Is too easy, 3 FGM and 2 FTM each Quarter

Tony every season score more and in every season Shoot more

In the PO Tony took 329 2 Points shots and Manu 148, TD 334

If you shoot more times always you are going to score more

In the Past we always play 4 Down, now with TP in the field we generally call the Play 9

Play 9:

1 - The PG takes the ball and tries to penetrate when coming out of a Pick and roll

2 - If he cannot come back to look for another pick and roll

3 - When coming out of the P&R tries to penetrate again

4 - Repeat steps 2 and 3, until they lack 10 seconds, this time if you can´t tries to shoot from outside

5 - If the PG doesn´t have the shot, looks for a teammate so that he is not the one who takes a difficult shot

6 - If the PG can take the shot, no one Teammate touch the ball in the Play

And? 9 isn´t a defensive play and the thread say Defensive Ratings.

I have a couple of comments

I'm sorry. I don't read... off comments

[waly.mg]

in Argentinean there is a saying

THE BEST DEFENSE IS A GOOD ATTACK

The Best deffense play of Tony is the Play 9

[thousandth]

in Argentinean there is a saying

THE BEST DEFENSE IS A GOOD ATTACK

The Best deffense play of Tony is the Play 9

Easy, bro. Easy. I get it.

[ShoogarBear]

WTF is it about Manu that generated this fan base that feels the need to, if not hate other Spurs, at least denegrate them in order to make Manu look better?

In 30+ years of Spur Fandom there's never been anything like it.

Nobody argued about Silas vs. Gervin, or Gervin vs. Mitc .

Kenon himself had some issues abut his stats, but the fans were never divided on it.

And there was plenty of credit for both Robinson and Duncan to go around.

It wasn't until the Church of Manu showed up that objective analysis of a player strengths and weaknesses became the Inquisition.

[diego]

i dont know whottt you are talking about shoogar bear
...

[polandprzem]

i dont know whottt you are talking about shoogar bear
...

Frankly speaking me too.

Where is this hate? I saw some comparisons (one player to another) but all in all the hate for the 'other' spurs player is not much seen.

Maybe Shoog got different insight on that one or I do not look carefull enough.

[ShoogarBear]

13. Refuses to release rap album.

19. Not married to an ABC celebrity. If only he was engaged to Patrick Dempsey, he'd have won the 2005 Finals MVP.

[SRJ]

I have seen the Manu v. Parker fans in action...on two different Spurs sites. It's very real.

[polandprzem]

13. Refuses to release rap album.

19. Not married to an ABC celebrity. If only he was engaged to Patrick Dempsey, he'd have won the 2005 Finals MVP.

Irony?
Bit of sarcasm?

[diego]

i dont know whottt you are talking about shoogar bear
...

drob v duncan
barry v finley
aj v tp
etc

[ShoogarBear]

Irony?
Bit of sarcasm?

Not from that source.