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  1. #51
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    ....any grassy knolls?

  2. #52
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Don't look for Rummy to be at the Tillman inquiry today....

    Former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld appears to have refused to testify at a hearing scheduled for Wednesday on the friendly fire death of Army Specialist Patrick Tillman, RAW STORY has learned.

    Tuesday afternoon, the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform released a witness list for the Tillman hearing. Rumsfeld, who was invited to testify by Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA) on July 16, was not present.

    The witnesses scheduled to testify are:

    * Gen. John P. Abizaid (Retired), Former Commander, U.S. Central Command
    * Gen. Richard B. Myers (Retired), Former Chair, Joint Chiefs of Staff
    * Gen. Bryan Douglas Brown (Retired), Former Commander, U.S. Special Operations Command
    * Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger, Jr. (Retired), Former Commander, U.S. Special Operations Command
    Rawstory

  3. #53
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I think we need more facts.
    Agreed. I wonder what the facts are. I would wonder how many soldiers were shooting Tillman's direction and how many were with Tillman. Ballistics would probably be impossible, the round would be too destroyed for proper ballistics. Before someone tells me otherwise, remember, a 223 round is far different than a 38, 44, 9mm, etc. It travels at such a greater velocity, they fall apart on impact. A 38, 44, 9mm, etc. stay in one piece.

    How likely is this?

    It is said that Tillman tried to get the 'friendlies' to stop firing. Wasn't it said he stood up and waved his arms? If he is the only target, I could see the possibility of several shooters firing at nearly the same time, with three striking!

    Has that been ruled out? It may not be the most probable scenario, but as long as it is possible, hearing the idea someone executed him disgusts me.

    A 223 has a minimum of 1260 foot pounds of energy, and maintains about 1000 ft. lbs. of energy after 100 yards. This of course depends on the particular round used. When you hear of ballistics on TV shows, they are normally portraying lower velocity rifles, or pistols.

    To my knowledge, the nominal 223 round used in the M16 series rifle is a 62 grain round, full metal jacket. For comparisons, I’ll use the following link:

    Ammunition and Ballistics

    Load AE223N is a 62 grain full metal jacket round for the M16 series. It has a muzzle velocity of 3020 ft/sec. and energy of 1255 ft. lbs. This decreases to 2713 ft./sec. and 1013 ft. lbs. at 100 yards.

    Load C44SA fits the 44. Being a larger diameter and heavy round at 200 grains, it has a muzzle velocity of 870 ft./sec. and a force of 336 ft. lbs. Of the pistol rounds I looked up, the 357 has the best energy. The muzzle velocity of load C357B is 1440 ft./sec. with an energy of 575 ft. lbs. These rounds maintain their shape well enough for ballistics tests, where the M16 rounds are useless after the hit a target for definitive ballistics. All the rifles I looked up had lower values also except the 22-250. Funny think however, as it crosses past 400 yards, the 223 becomes the better round. That doesn’t make sense at first glance. It must have something to do with the twist ratio and shape. The one I compared was a 60 grain. The other rifle rounds I compared were 30-30, 308, and 30-06. Being heavier rounds, with the powder to push them, they ranged from 2390 to 2830 ft./sec. and energies of 1902 to 2934 ft. lbs. I don’t know for sure, but I think the 30 caliper round and shape with the slightly lower velocity keeps it from deforming like the 223 round does. The 223 round is 45 mm long and 5.56 mm in diameter The other rounds are about 50% wider and only a few mm longer.

  4. #54
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    I am still trying to figure out how much more
    time and manpower is going to the wasted in
    this exercise. It is admitted that he was killed
    by his own troops. Now someone, wants
    someone to pay a price for that. Does
    anyone really think they are going to find
    out who fired the fatal shot(s). I doubt
    any two people there can give the same
    story.

  5. #55
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I am still trying to figure out how much more
    time and manpower is going to the wasted in
    this exercise. It is admitted that he was killed
    by his own troops. Now someone, wants
    someone to pay a price for that. Does
    anyone really think they are going to find
    out who fired the fatal shot(s). I doubt
    any two people there can give the same
    story.
    Actually, I think the real investigation is complete. However, the iden y of the shooter(s) is likely concealed to protect them from a vigilante. Records like this are sealed for a good reasons. I believe it won't be until this is past history that we know the full truth.

  6. #56
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    "Now someone, wants someone to pay a price for that"

    no.

    happens in battle.

    coverups don't happen in battle, it's the coverup that needs punishing. The brass will choose a sacrificial goat, lower the grade, the better, and protect themelves, as always.

  7. #57
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    "Now someone, wants someone to pay a price for that"

    no.
    Well, someone does, or else there wouldn't be all this controversy on what appears to be a tragic friendly fire incident. There is no evidence of an intentional killing, yet someone tries to make it such.

    happens in battle.

    coverups don't happen in battle, it's the coverup that needs punishing. The brass will choose a sacrificial goat, lower the grade, the better, and protect themelves, as always.
    Yes, and if you haven't noticed, the people propagating the lies are being punished.

    A sacrificial lamb? No. The proper people will be held accountable. Have you ever seen military service up front and personal? I have!

  8. #58
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    "The proper people will be held accountable"

    Sure, like Abu Ghraib.

  9. #59
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    "The proper people will be held accountable"

    Sure, like Abu Ghraib.
    The people in Abu Ghraib were held accountable. There was a general demoted to colonel. Pundits like to use her words that she did not know what the contractors were doing, but she was responsible for the actions of her soldiers. Some soldiers are also now doing prison time. You Bush Haters are unhappy because the problems were all found at the command level of the prison, and no higher. Some quotes from some links:

    Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse:

    As revealed by the 2004 Taguba Report a criminal investigation by the US Army Criminal Investigation Command had already been underway since May 2003 where four Soldiers from the 320th MP Battalion had been formally charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) with detainee abuse. In April 2004 reports of the abuse, as well as graphic pictures showing American military personnel in the act of abusing prisoners, came to public attention, when a 60 Minutes II news report (April 28) and an article by Seymour M. Hersh in The New Yorker magazine (posted online on April 30 and published days later in the May 10 issue) reported the story. Janis Karpinski, the commander of Abu Ghraib demoted for her lack of oversight regarding the abuse, estimated later that 90% of detainees in the prison were innocent.

    The U.S. Department of Defense removed seventeen soldiers and officers from duty, and seven soldiers were charged with dereliction of duty, maltreatment, aggravated assault, and battery. Between May 2004 and September 2005, seven soldiers were convicted in courts martial, sentenced to federal prison time, and dishonorably discharged from service. Two soldiers, Specialist Charles Graner, and his former fiancée, Specialist Lynndie England, were sentenced to ten years and three years in prison, respectively, in trials ending on January 14 2005 and September 26, 2005. The commanding officer at the prison, Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, was demoted to the rank of colonel on May 5, 2005. Colonel Karpinski has denied knowledge of the abuses claiming that the interrogations were authorized by her superiors and performed by subcontractors, and that she was not even allowed entry into the interrogation rooms.
    Taguba Report:

    Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, the senior officer in Iraq, appointed Major General Antonio Taguba to open an Article 15-6 inquiry into the conduct of the 800th Military Police Brigade.

    According to the report the inquiry was initiated because:

    "LTG Sanchez requested an investigation of detention and internment operations by the Brigade from 1 November 2003 to present. LTG Sanchez cited recent reports of detainee abuse, escapes from confinement facilities, and accountability lapses, which indicated systemic problems within the brigade and suggested a lack of clear standards, proficiency, and leadership."
    Taguba faults leadership for Iraqi detainee abuse Lessons-learned go to MP schoolhouse:

    Taguba was sent to Iraq at the request of Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, Joint Task Force 7 commanding general, for an impartial look from someone outside JTF-7 to see if any systemic issues contributed to cir stances that lead to the alleged abuse and to several detainee escapes at the Abu Ghraib prison. The general and his investigation team looked at three other large detainee facilities run by 800th MP Brigade units in addition to Abu Ghraib. Taguba’s report praised two 800th MP units at other facilities for the way they executed the detainee security function.

    “Lack of discipline, no training whatsoever and a lack of leadership presence,” Taguba replied to one senator’s question for a short answer as to why the alleged abuse happened at Abu Ghraib.

    In later testimony, Taguba expanded on his short answer.

    To support the lack of discipline comment, the general told the committee there was no single standard uniform for either the MP guards or the military intelligence specialists who were responsible for interrogating the detainees – they wore whatever they felt like wearing.

    Further, no formal guard mounts were held at Abu Ghraib where those guards going off duty brief important information to those going on duty, Taguba said. Guard mounts are now being held by the new MP unit that took over the Abu Ghraib mission. Each guard shift change now includes a briefing on the applicable Geneva Convention sections that pertain to detainees.

    As far as training for operating a prison or detainee facility – a valid mission for an MP unit – Taguba said several guards questioned during the investigation said they had received no detainee security and resettlement training since arriving at their mobilization station prior to deployment. A search of training records from the 320th confirmed that no such training had occurred in battalion during the past year.

    Taguba faulted the 800th MP Brigade commander, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, for lack of any substantive command presence at Abu Ghraib. He said that Karpinski attempted to mislead him during his investigation about the number of visits she made to the prison. A check with her aide and her calendar confirmed that Karpinski’s visits were less than she said.

    In response to a question about interrogation techniques, Taguba said that Army doctrine has more than 50 approved techniques, some harsher than others, to include sleep depravation, a controlled diet, isolation for more than 30 days and having a guard dog present in the interrogation booth. He said the harsher techniques require general officer or higher approval for use, and that when a dog is used, it must be muzzled and under the control of a dog handler.

    There was some disagreement between Taguba and Dr. Stephen Cambone, undersecretary of defense for intelligence who also testified, about exactly who the 320th MP Battalion worked for during the timeframe of the alleged abuse. A JTF-7 fragment order placed Abu Ghraib under the operational control of an MI brigade last October. Cambone said that meant the MI brigade was responsible for the infrastructure of the facility, not for telling the MP guards what to do. Taguba said operational control meant that the MPs’ priority was to work for the MI brigade.

    The general said his investigation uncovered “no order whatsoever, written or otherwise” that directed the guards or MI interrogators to use inhumane measures in obtaining intelligence from the detainees.

    However, Taguba said that he did “believe there was collaboration at the lower levels between interrogators and guards” that led to behavior outside the bounds of international laws and the Geneva Convention.

    A separate investigation, called a Procedure 15, is underway to determine what, if any, responsibilities the interrogators had in ordering, encouraging or turning a blind eye to the alleged abuse.

    Other investigations still ongoing include the criminal investigation, an inspector general look at all detainee facilities and applicable detainee security doctrine and training, and an Office of the Chief of the Army Reserve check into the pre-mobilization and mobilization detainee security training of Reserve units.

    Through May 11, the criminal investigation has determined there was enough evidence against six 320th MP Battalion Soldiers to warrant criminal charges be preferred against them. The cases of two of those Soldiers have been reviewed by a general officer and referred for courts-martial.

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