Jail time for women who get abortions?

[George Gervin's Afro]

So the line is drawn at the end of the third month?

Three month minus one day is ok, thre months plus one day is not.

Do you realize that makes no sense?

you have to draw the line somwhere.. like for the death penalty.. is 16 yrs old ok to execute? what about someone who commits a crime on the day before their 16th birthday?

[smeagol]

Do you moan and complain about social programs for the poor? And then turn around and profess your belief that abortion is wrong?

Have you ever seen me complain about social programs for the poor?

I support any program funded by Uncle Sam that helps people. Anything is better than the way the US Government is using it's monies now (i.e. Iraq).

[George Gervin's Afro]

No, they don't and they'll spend 35 pages of this thread avoiding that very distinction.

Must be nice to draw such an arbitrary line for a child.

so now your saying that arbitrary lines are just that? or are arbitraty lines bad for this argument alone? there are may things in our society that have arbiitrary distinctions.. one day before or one day afterwards... there has to be a line drawn..

[Yonivore]

you have to draw the line somwhere.. like for the death penalty.. is 16 yrs old ok to execute? what about someone who commits a crime on the day before their 16th birthday?

Okay, comparing innocent unborn life to that of a convicted criminal is not only ludicrous, it's not germane to the conversation.

Why do you have to draw a line at all? We're not talking about punishing a convicted fetus.

If you're opposed to killing the baby when it is possible the baby could survive outside the womb, what do you say to the millions of babies who, because viability was defined at a much older gestational age, were sucked from the womb and thrown out with yesterday's garbage?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Have you ever seen me complain about social programs for the poor?

I support any program funded by Uncle Sam that helps people. Anything is better than the way the US Government is using it's monies now (i.e. Iraq).

That was for the folks here who have avoided my comment. The pro lifers who care about babies until their born.. those kids are on their own..

[Yonivore]

so now your saying that arbitrary lines are just that? or are arbitraty lines bad for this argument alone? there are may things in our society that have arbiitrary distinctions.. one day before or one day afterwards... there has to be a line drawn..

Again, why does there have to be a line with abortion? Why can't the practice be outlawed altogether?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Okay, comparing innocent unborn life to that of a convicted criminal is not only ludicrous, it's not germane to the conversation.

Why do you have to draw a line at all? We're not talking about punishing a convicted fetus.

If you're opposed to killing the baby when it is possible the baby could survive outside the womb, what do you say to the millions of babies who, because viability was defined at a much older gestational age, were sucked from the womb and thrown out with yesterday's garbage?

I will say it again I don't agree with aborting babies after they are viable outsode the womb. With that being said it's not my job or right to tell another person what to do with their bodies.. how hard is that to understand?

[fyatuk]

So the line is drawn at the end of the third month?

Three month minus one day is ok, thre months plus one day is not.

Do you realize that makes no sense?

I didn't set an actual mark there. I don't know enough about the science of fetal development to choose any sort of deadline. My point was that except in rare cases of fast development, a fetal human is not biologically different from any other fetal animal through at least the first 3rd of its development, and that I don't see any difference between killing an embryo or fetus that hasn't developed past that point and killing an animal.

I wouldn't try and be the decider on exactly when to cut off abortion rights, but to me it's idiotic to throw such a hissy fit over something so undeveloped you'd have to do a chromosomal analysis to determine its species.

You'll never find a hard cutoff that works for something dependent on development levels, like nbadan's "survive outside the womb" or my recognizably human. The best you could do under those cir stances is an average.

[smeagol]

you have to draw the line somwhere...

Conception

like for the death penalty.. is 16 yrs old ok to execute? what about someone who commits a crime on the day before their 16th birthday?

It is not ok to kill any human being. I thought you leftist were against the death penalty.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Again, why does there have to be a line with abortion? Why can't the practice be outlawed altogether?

Because Yoni it's not my right to tell another human being what to do with their bodies..

[Yonivore]

I didn't set an actual mark there. I don't know enough about the science of fetal development to choose any sort of deadline. My point was that except in rare cases of fast development, a fetal human is not biologically different from any other fetal animal through at least the first 3rd of its development, and that I don't see any difference between killing an embryo or fetus that hasn't developed past that point and killing an animal.

Really? So, there's a chance my Uncle Bill's cow Bessie could develop a human in her womb? Wow! That's amazing!!!

I wouldn't try and be the decider on exactly when to cut off abortion rights, but to me it's idiotic to throw such a hissy fit over something so undeveloped you'd have to do a chromosomal analysis to determine its species.

Again, you're saying there's some question of whether or not a developing fetus, inside the mother's womb, is something other than the species of the mother? That's groundbreaking analysis there.

You'll never find a hard cutoff that works for something dependent on development levels, like nbadan's "survive outside the womb" or my recognizably human. The best you could do under those cir stances is an average.

I'm sure the 49.99999999999% who fall below your average will appreciate the effort you make in trying to noodle out their right to exist.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Conception



It is not ok to kill any human being. I thought you leftist were against the death penalty.

are you talking to me? I am ok with the death penalty. It's real easy for all of you pro-lifers to go around and tell perfect strangers thet they have to live their lives a certain way becuase you feel bad,. I thought you righties were for small govt? keeping govt out of personal ives?


by the way you are taking my comments out of context? are you stupid? or are you doing that on purpose?

[Yonivore]

Because Yoni it's not my right to tell another human being what to do with their bodies..

And, it's a mother's right to destroy the human that had no choice but to be conceived in her body?

[George Gervin's Afro]

And, it's a mother's right to destroy the human that had no choice but to be conceived in her body?

yes Yoni. If that's the way you want to phrase it. the woman has the right to destroy a human that was conceived in her body..

[smeagol]

I will say it again I don't agree with aborting babies after they are viable outsode the womb. With that being said it's not my job or right to tell another person what to do with their bodies.. how hard is that to understand?

It is difficult to understand because you contradict yourself. On the one hand you state you are against abortions if they are not executed in the fist trimester, on the other you say it is not your right to tell other people what to do with their bodies.

So if a soon to be mother comes along and tell you she wants to abort her 7 month old unborn child, you say no, or you keep quiet?

[Yonivore]

yes Yoni. If that's the way you want to phrase it. the woman has the right to destroy a human that was conceived in her body..

Why at 3 months and not at 8 and half?

[George Gervin's Afro]

It is difficult to understand because you contradict yourself. On the one hand you state you are against abortions if they are not executed in the fist trimester, on the other you say it is not your right to tell other people what to do with their bodies.

I don't favor people getting late abortions but I respect their right to do so. How hard is that for you to understand?

So if a soon to be mother comes along and tell you she wants to abort her 7 month old unborn child, you say no, or you keep quiet?

I would tell her that she should consider delivering her baby and giving it up for adoption. I have no RIGHT to tell her anything.

[fyatuk]

Really? So, there's a chance my Uncle Bill's cow Bessie could develop a human in her womb? Wow! That's amazing!!!

Nope, I said you'd have to do a genetic analysis to tell the difference between a human fetus and a cow fetus when they are both 33% through development.

Again, you're saying there's some question of whether or not a developing fetus, inside the mother's womb, is something other than the species of the mother? That's groundbreaking analysis there.

Now that's a weird response to me saying you'd have to do a chromosomal analysis to determine it's species. I was closer to saying you'd have to do an in-depth analysis to tell the difference between identical twins (identical twins do have slight differences in their DNA caused by post-separation mutations). You're ins uting your own biases into my statements and coming up with some really off interpretations there.

I'm sure the 49.99999999999% who fall below your average will appreciate the effort you make in trying to noodle out their right to exist.

Considering around that time they don't have a functioning brain (IIRC that develops during the second trimester), I don't think they'd mind.

[smeagol]

are you talking to me?

I quoted a statement of yours, didn't I?

I thought you righties were for small govt? keeping govt out of personal ives?

Righties? I'm not considered rightwing, at least not in this country. Ask Yoni if you don't believe me.

by the way you are taking my comments out of context? are you stupid? or are you doing that on purpose?

When did I take you out of concept? No need to insult me at this time, chum.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Why at 3 months and not at 8 and half?

can a 3 month old fetus survive outside the womb? no. van an 8 1/2 month baby survive? yes.

If my 15 yr old daughter comes home and tells me she's pregnant I am going to leave it up to her to decide what she wants to do.

[fyatuk]

It is difficult to understand because you contradict yourself. On the one hand you state you are against abortions if they are not executed in the fist trimester, on the other you say it is not your right to tell other people what to do with their bodies.

That's hard to understand? Morally he doesn't agree with with later term abortions. Legally he believes the government doesn't have the right to ins ute restrictions.

That's not a complicated at ude.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I quoted a statement of yours, didn't I?




Righties? I'm not considered rightwing, at least not in this country. Ask Yoni if you don't believe me.




When did I take you out of concept? No need to insult me at this time, chum.

I was giving an example of an arbitrary line we have created in society for Yoni. You applied that to conception and then made the comment that you thought leftiers were aginst the death penalty. 2 different comments and you apllied them together. taking my quotes out of context. that's fine dude you can cut and past all you want..

[Spurminator]

To me, if you're pro-choice it's an all-or-nothing proposition. If your position is that the woman has a right to her body, that should be the case whether the unborn life inside of her is 1 month old or 3 years old. The pro-choice argument is weakened when you try to rationalize early term abortions vs. late term abortions, because you rely on arbitrary cut-offs and definitions of "life."

My personal position is that abortion is a disturbing and ugly practice, but not nearly as disturbing and ugly as a government forcing a woman to finish an unwanted pregnancy against her will. The solution to this, therefore, should first address our society's obsession with sex and its ignorance about safe sex.

[smeagol]

I would tell her that she should consider delivering her baby and giving it up for adoption. I have no RIGHT to tell her anything.

Ok.

I get your point.

Just to be clear: If a woman decides to abort the day before her sechuled c-section in her 40th week of pregnancy, you believe it is her right to do so and what she is killing is not a baby, not a human being . . . just a fetus.

[Yonivore]

can a 3 month old fetus survive outside the womb? no. van an 8 1/2 month baby survive? yes.

10 Years ago, a 5 1/2 month old fetus couldn't survive outside the womb but, now they can. What's your point?

If my 15 yr old daughter comes home and tells me she's pregnant I am going to leave it up to her to decide what she wants to do.

Wow! Talk about throwing your teenager under the bus. Do you advocate her making all life-and-death decisions without the benefit of your wisdom?