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you keep sliding on the slippery slope
So millions of people sneak across every year, but because it hasn't happened yet, it could never happen. Who's naive?Typical myopic paranoia...
The 9/11 terrorists did not come in through Mexico... Nor did the '93 Terrorist attackers, or the Oklahoma City Bomber, or the Washington D.C. Snipers, or the '96 Atlanta Bomber...
For that matter gangs and actual criminals, will be a threat no matter where you go... to assume or even assert that locking out the border will fix this problem is rather naive.
Why not just keep your house unlocked when you go to bed at night?
you keep sliding on the slippery slope
Damn, that bothers me a lot.
it is what it is man, get your logic right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
Oh no! Now I've been linked! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
While crappy, global outsourcing of production lines is not and should never be used to compare with the topic of illegal aliens being in the country illegally.
Ummmm.... you missed the point.
Read the thread le... read my response and then assess your stance again.
All immigrants aren't criminals... one "all-encompassing" law cannot automatically label one as a criminal simply because these immigrants are seeking a better way of life. What type of screwed up thinking would arbitrarily pool immigrants with murderers, thiefs, rapists, and drug dealers?
And yes, I fully understand that some of them do have a criminal background - in their case, I would say that they've lost their chance to seek a future in the U.S.A.... in their case, we do have legitimate grounds to deny them entry.
What ever happened to to the belief that people have a right to "The Pursuit of Happiness"... or the concept that "All men are created equal"??? From a semantical point of view, it refers to men as humans and not as Citizens of the U.S.A.
In my opinion our policies on this issue have historically been driven by selfishness - exaggerated tax burden concerns, fear of other cultures, fear that others would take our en lements, or that which we felt belonged to us. This latest pretense that immigration is chiefly a security issue falls on deaf ears in light of those sentiments and will largely be considered a cop out in my view. Not to mention that the general approach to immigration is all wrong. Treat the root cause of problems not the symptoms. Furthermore, we need to desperately restructure our welfare programs to target those in true need and to alienate those who 'work the system'. I'm apalled that the general U.S. populace would rather demonize a hardworking immigrant instead of the state produced, viced, lazy, people that are continually syphoning the tax dollars out of our social programs... The fact that they 'reap' their checks without doing anything to merit the stipend while the immigrant toils in hard labor is the crux of the comparison. But hey... they are U.S. born Citizens of this Grand Nation... They deserve it!!!
Sure, we can try and control the flux of migrants into the country due to legitimate social, financial and infrastructural concerns but the legal proecesses that exist today are bersome, expensive, and many times end as unsuccessful bids. AHF's example is the exception not the rule. And did he mention that the person waited 10 years... 10 years people!!! Who can live off of misery for that long? I'm pretty sure that if I were in their shoes that I wouldn't wait around that long for my cir stance to change.... I couldn't envision having to wait longer than two years for something like this...
People here just take it for granted that they can choose to visit most countries in the world by simply paying for a VISA and obtaining a passport. Coming into this country however is way more difficult. My cousins can't even visit me without having to s out thousands of dollars for their do ents (even a simple tourist VISA) and the worse part is that 95% of their attempts have ended in nothing but a loss of money.
Last edited by Phenomanul; 08-10-2007 at 02:09 PM.
Hey, if the citizenship process needs streamlining, then let's do it.
Immigrants are not in that pool...but what do you have when people are sneaking across the border under cover of darkness? What kind of screwed-up thinking says, "No one sneaking across is coming to do harm?"All immigrants aren't criminals... one "all-encompassing" law cannot automatically label one as a criminal simply because these immigrants are seeking a better way of life. What type of screwed up thinking would arbitrarily pool immigrants with murderers, thiefs, rapists, and drug dealers?
Our ports and borders are the doors and windows to our house. In my house, I have to assume that anyone sneaking in at night while I'm asleep is coming for my possessions or me. Maybe they're not, but if I'm wrong it's gonna cost me big.
I hate people who say that we would do just fine without the labor if Illegal immigrants, those people that say that probably only have to worry about having an asshole for a boss or not having coffe ready in the office when they get to work. Illegals have to worry about falling off a roof, getting a nail hammered into their hand or a heat stroke from working in the field under 100 degree weather, the people that are working on the roof of the company I work for are probably illegals but do we complain? no, why? because we don't want to pay higher prices, none of them speak english but they do damn good job.
Last time I checked I didn't want my kids to be competing for a job in the field picking frutis or in roofs.
Last edited by nsrammstein; 08-10-2007 at 02:41 PM.
Illegals wouldn't have to worry about that if people wouldn't hire them, if our government would penalize companies for hiring them, if our government would do a better job securing the borders.
If that would happen (I know, it's a pipe dream asking people to obey the law), the only people who would have to worry about that stuff would be Americans.
Americans should realize how good they have it if someone is willing to travel hundreds or thousands of miles, then find a way to make it across the border, often going through deserts on foot, then live on the fringes of society without much in the way of legal protections just for the ability to work outside in a Texas summer and make jack . Or work in a slaughterhouse or whatever less than pleasant occupation that most Americans wouldn't ever dream of trying out. It's interesting how throughout American history immigrants have been reviled and then how quickly yesterday's immigrants or their progeny begin to revile today's immigrants.
You think they would risk it all just to come to the US to take american jobs? You think they would risk getting severly injured or dying in the desert to just come here to take jobs away from americans and rape women, and murder children? I'm not saying 100% are not rapist or murderers but atleast 97% of them come here to work hard and support their family..
Then our cost of living goes up to satisfy someone's fetish.
That right there illustrates the myopic selfishness of which I speak of.....
One earns what they work for... that shouldn't be hard to understand.
It's interesting how people who are here illegally are called immigrants when actual immigrants go through the process of citizenship.It's interesting how throughout American history immigrants have been reviled and then how quickly yesterday's immigrants or their progeny begin to revile today's immigrants.
Illegal Immigrant, there I hope that makes your day.
It helps, but doesn't go far enough.
What would be ''far enough'' for you?
Because before immigrants went through such a bureaucratic maze.
What would go far enough?
A more secure border. Obviously, you can't cover every square inch of our border with Mexico and the Canadian border, but it's obvious that it's just too porous right now.
Penalties for companies hiring illegal aliens. Without the incentive they provide, you wouldn't have as many people entering illegally.
A streamlined immigration process. It's obvious that there is too much inefficient bureacracy impeding people who are coming here. Make it easier.
If we could take those simple steps, we'd be better off. But it won't work if there's no respect for the idea that people cannot just waltz in here willy-nilly. If you're not willing to follow just a few simple rules, then you shouldn't be here.
Those of us who were born here must follow the rules; why should it be any different for people who want to join us?
I want some people to look at it from a different point of view - the eyes of, say, a teenager.
First I want to make clear that it is not just menial labor that illegal immigrants are working at. Many may be doing what is considered a step up from that such as working at a fast food joint or working a telemarketing job. Those jobs along with mowing lawns and painting houses are well among the few things that teenagers can do. Ever heard of a Catch 22? That's the predicament presented when teenagers don't have a sufficient amount of opportunities. That's cutting down on human capital and investment.
As long as we're generalizing like mad, I know quite a few teenagers who are extremely hard working. They balance a busy social life, raging hormones and a bunch of school work, and they get hassled by their parents to find a job.
Or wait, do hard working American teenagers not count because they are not immigrants? Only illegal immigrants who are hard working and seek a better life should count for something?
You just don't get it do you? Border isolationism is not the answer. Yes, we need to penalize employers for hiring undo ented workers. But that could only be attained if and only if the supply can still be met. That is, if there were enough do ented workers to fill the work void. Unsurprisingly that shift would likely also increase the cost of living everywhere in the U.S. since 'legal' workers would likely require higher wages.
The point is that none of this can happen until our immigration policies are streamlined to begin with... but you need to understand why this is needed... People can't sit in their countries and starve to death or watch their families suffer while beaurocrats sit here and push paper around for two to three years.... That is why many of them are left without much recourse but do what is needed for them to survive. A streamlined process would also do away with the need for honest workers to have to come in 'illegally' in the first place. At that point, those that tried to get into the U.S. outside of the confines of this facilitated pathway would clearly be up to no good (smugglers, terrorists, drug-traffickers etc...). I mean why would you expose yourself to that danger, if the 'legal' pathway were set up properly?
Clearly these migrant policies would also have to alter the qualification standards of our social programs, so that the floodgates would not drain every penny. That is the system that is in need of dire reform. I would think that new lie detection technology developed at M.I.T. would enable our social administrators to weed out the majority of false claims. But more importantly it would establish that benefits were available only to those who have contributed to the functioning of society. No more en lements, or free-bees.
Also significant is the fact that any major social reform will need to be coupled with a value deflation of everything in the healthcare system from drugs to medical procedures... the prices are astronomical. Why should a broken arm be a $20,000 hit to our insurance, or an apendectomy $18,000, while the Phizers of the world make billions upon billons of dollars? The healthcare sector is the elephant in the room with regards to tax drainage for those who don't earn enough to cover their own expenses.
Such reforms also need to be coupled with a relaxation of the subsidies levied on 3rd world goods... let true cap alism run its course (What, we don't adhere to supply and demand principles that govern capitalism if it isn't in the best interest of the U.S.? What type of hypocrisy are we spreading?) This would allow those nations to retain their own citizens, so that their emmigration rates were reduced as the need to emigrate was lessened.
When you see the bigger picture you'll find that many things would have to change to bring about a viable system. And as you probably know, the people in power (usually those that are super wealthy) have historically resisted change. When you think about it, that is the hurdle that needs to be overcome.
Last edited by Phenomanul; 08-10-2007 at 06:50 PM.
Is there a link to a national poll that indicates just how many Americans have a 'that work is below me' type at ude? I agree that a lot of things need to be changed like more incentives for people to find work rather than reap benefits. But there are some serious SERIOUS generalizations being thrown around that Americans are lazy / don't want to get their hands dirty etc.
And as another poster mentioned, yes globalization sucks. Very few people advocate it considering it means that their loved ones will have to leave everything they've ever known.
How To Influence People, by a total assholeYou just don't get it do you?
I'll keep this point in mind for later on.Border isolationism is not the answer. Yes, we need to penalize employers for hiring undo ented workers. But that could only be attained if and only if the supply can still be met. That is, if there were enough do ented workers to fill the work void. Unsurprisingly that shift would likely also increase the cost of living everywhere in the U.S. since 'legal' workers would likely require higher wages.
Again with the goddamn condescension. How awesome is it to be as smart as you are? Never mind, don't tell me, it's over my head anyway.The point is that none of this can happen until our immigration policies are streamlined to begin with... but you need to understand why this is needed...
Yeah...gosh, I wish I had argued for a streamlined process myself. Oh, wait...People can't sit in their countries and starve to death or watch their families suffer while beaurocrats sit here and push paper around for two to three years.... That is why many of them are left without much recourse but do what is needed for them to survive. A streamlined process would also do away with the need for honest workers to have to come in 'illegally' in the first place. At that point, those that tried to get into the U.S. outside of the confines of this facilitated pathway would clearly be up to no good (smugglers, terrorists, drug-traffickers etc...). I mean why would you expose yourself to that danger, if the 'legal' pathway were set up properly?
Nothing to quibble about there. Welfare cheats have long been a significant problem.Clearly these migrant policies would also have to alter the qualification standards of our social programs, so that the floodgates would not drain every penny. That is the system that is in need of dire reform. I would think that new lie detection technology developed at M.I.T. would enable our social administrators to weed out the majority of false claims. But more importantly it would establish that benefits were available only to those who have contributed to the functioning of society. No more en lements, or free-bees.
Hey, I don't even have a bull internet forum answer on health care.Also significant is the fact that any major social reform will need to be coupled with a value deflation of everything in the healthcare system from drugs to medical procedures... the prices are astronomical. Why should a broken arm be a $20,000 hit to our insurance, or an apendectomy $18,000, while the Phizers of the world make billions upon billons of dollars? The healthcare sector is the elephant in the room with regards to tax drainage for those who don't earn enough to cover their own expenses.
I agree in principle, but the American interpretation of capitalism is run through with lots of socialistic policies. It's hardly hypocritical of us to practice selective capitalism abroad when that's precisely what we do domestically.Such reforms also need to be coupled with a relaxation of the subsidies levied on 3rd world goods... let true cap alism run its course (What, we don't adhere to supply and demand principles that govern capitalism if it isn't in the best interest of the U.S.? What type of hypocrisy are we spreading?) This would allow those nations to retain their own citizens, so that their emmigration rates were reduced as the need to emigrate was lessened.
Now we come to the devilish Catch-22 in your answer. I will repost this from your first paragraph:When you see the bigger picture you'll find that many things would have to change to bring about a viable system. And as you probably know, the people in power (usually those that are super wealthy) have historically resisted change. When you think about it, that is the hurdle that needs to be overcome.
You again, this time from your last paragraph:Unsurprisingly that shift would likely also increase the cost of living everywhere in the U.S. since 'legal' workers would likely require higher wages.
So if reforms would raise our standard of living (and presumably, this is one reason many of us are OK with the status quo), why all of a sudden would the wealthy powerful object to reform? After all, they won't feel it when the cost-of-living goes up, and they will likely reap the windfall of the reforms. Oh sure, the wealthy will have to lay out a little bit more for labor, but they have lawyers and accountants ready to find the loopholes in the new policies.And as you probably know, the people in power (usually those that are super wealthy) have historically resisted change.
We like the cheap goods. It's that simple.
By the way, when we discuss the suffering felt by families sneaking into our country, at what point do we hold their governments accountable? Why is it the United States' job to provide opportunities for every downtrodden family?
I'm guessing that Americans who complain about the US being the world's policeman aren't saying word one about being the world's provider. Funny how that works.
You made a point about dirty bombs.
And, I just made a sarcastic comment about them not affording one.
If you should need a definition to the word "sarcasm", please let me know.
Let's stop pretending that this has anything to do with the Canadian border or anything like that. This has to do with Mexico and the border we share with it.
If Mexico was 95% white, we wouldn't even be talking about any of this. If the point you tried to make is that terrorists could come in through Mexico, it would actually be A LOT easier for them to come in through Canada. The border up north is hardly even patrolled.
Where's the wall being built on the Canadian border???
America has always had a phobia towards the darker colored races. That's the issue. Immigration has just given their racial hatred some kind of legitimacy.
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