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  1. #51
    "Have to check the film" PixelPusher's Avatar
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    That's right. Take an expert at warfare and ask him to declare something he has not spent his time with. The general is tasked with the intricacies on the battlefield. Not those of the intelligence networks. If you listened to any of the exchanges at length, you would see that Petaeus was very good in his statements overall.

    Is that the best you have?
    You're right, it's not Petraeus's job to comment on overall policy, just mission specifics...which is exactly why a thoroughly discredited Bush Administration is hiding behind the good/honorable/competent General to begin with.

    That's why the entire sham of these hearings were summed up in that little exchange.

  2. #52
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    An editorial from the Wall Street Journal.

    Petraeus Takes the Beltway
    Political progress--in Iraq and the U.S--follows military success.

    Wednesday, September 12, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT

    So the two men best qualified to give an honest and comprehensive account of events in Iraq have marched through Congress to say--and show--that the surge is working and America's goals are still within reach. Yet it's a sign of the U.S. political debate that their evidence of progress seemed to make the headlines in none of our leading news sources yesterday.

    Instead, the "news" seems to be that General David Petraeus has recommended that some 5,000 U.S. troops can rotate out of Iraq by the end of this year, and that U.S. forces might be able to return to pre-surge levels by next July if progress continues. That's no small matter, but it obscures the larger message of the testimony by the General and Ambassador Ryan Crocker. To wit: The U.S. is gaining ground in Iraq--often in the least expected of ways.

    Consider some excerpts from Mr. Crocker's testimony. The Iraqi government puts its cell phone spectrum up for auction: It nets a better-than-expected sum of nearly $4 billion. At a recent conference in Dubai, "hundreds of Iraqi businessmen met an equal number of foreign investors newly interested in acquiring shares of business in Iraq." Iraqi oil is now flowing out of the country via Turkish pipelines, and the International Monetary Fund predicts economic growth for Iraq of 6% this year.

    In the vicinity of Abu Ghraib, 1,700 men--many of them former Sunni insurgents--have joined the Shiite-dominated Iraqi Security Forces. The Iraqi government is quietly offering jobs or retirement packages to thousands of former soldiers, many of them one-time members of the Baath Party. Significantly, it is doing so without taking the politically sensitive steps of declaring a general amnesty or enacting legislation on de-Baathification.

    As Mr. Crocker notes, these developments "are neither measured in benchmarks nor visible to those far from Baghdad." It's a point that seems to have been missed by Democrats on the Senate Armed Services and Foreign Relations Committees, as well as by such Republicans as John Warner and Lugar. Their collective view seems to be that Iraq is a lost cause because the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has failed to achieve "national reconciliation," on the grounds that a series of legislative benchmarks have still not been met.

    We don't know anyone who opposes "national reconciliation," though perhaps only on Capitol Hill would it be measured by the quan y of legislation passed rather than the quality of life for ordinary Iraqis. (In the U.S., these measures tend to be inversely correlated.) Yet "reconciliation" isn't something that precedes basic security. It follows from it.

    In his testimony, General Petraeus noted that violent civilian deaths have declined by 45% in Iraq and 70% in Baghdad. Car and suicide bombings are down by nearly 50% since March, another astonishing turnabout. Here, too, the good news comes from the least expected of places: Anbar province, where Sunni tribal leaders and many former insurgents have realized their best interests lie with the U.S. and a democratic Iraqi government in which they have a say, and not with al Qaeda. Critics claim this realization has nothing to do with the surge, but surely the tribal sheikhs would not risk fighting al Qaeda unless they believed the U.S. and Iraqi government had shown the will to stay and prevail.

    Progress in Anbar would also have been harder had Mr. Maliki not agreed to allow the arming of Sunni tribal leaders, despite the danger that could pose to Shiite power. Mr. Maliki has also shown political courage by allowing the U.S. to go after the Mahdi Army of Moqtada al-Sadr, who only last year helped the prime minister get his job. Mr. Sadr recently agreed to a unilateral ceasefire after some of his men attacked Shiite worshippers in Karbala. Like al Qaeda in Iraq, he too may have overplayed his hand, and one reason for the surge to continue is to give General Petraeus time to further degrade Mahdi elements. This will leave the Iraqi Security Force in a stronger position to keep order after the surge.

    One element that's still missing is the non-interference of Iraq's neighbors in its affairs. With Democratic Presidential hopeful Dennis Kucinich paying court this week in Damascus, it was especially useful to hear General Petraeus describe Syria's role in Iraq as "malign" and provide specific details of Iran's killing of U.S. soldiers and Iraqi government leaders. Our own sources say Iranian-backed forces are now responsible for 70% of U.S. casualties. The problem of Iran in Iraq is worth another editorial, but as the surge continues President Bush is going to have to get far more serious about proving to Tehran that there really are "consequences" for killing Americans. So far Mr. Bush has shown the opposite.

    As for U.S. politics, the lesson of the last few months is that the way to gain ground on Capitol Hill is not with the promise of troop withdrawals. As our experience in Vietnam showed, such withdrawals quickly become a Congressional addiction. All Americans want fewer troops in Iraq; most Americans also want that drawdown to be honorable and victorious. The way to stop, or slow, the calls for too-rapid withdrawal is to succeed in making further military and political progress in Iraq.

    The success of the surge so far has bought Mr. Bush more time and support to press the initiative in Baghdad and the larger Middle East. He owes it to General Petraeus and U.S. troops to exploit this opening on every front--including Syria and Iran.

    S

  3. #53
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    You're right, it's not Petraeus's job to comment on overall policy, just mission specifics...which is exactly why a thoroughly discredited Bush Administration is hiding behind the good/honorable/competent General to begin with.

    That's why the entire sham of these hearings were summed up in that little exchange.
    In your opinion, right? With what certainty? If you are stating it as fact, then I suggest you go and testify.

  4. #54
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Love how the wing-nut pundits are wrapping themselves around Petraeus's medals
    while condeming Democrats for being political hacks....makes me want to puke...

  5. #55
    The Great Eight Ocotillo's Avatar
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    Hmmmmmmmmmm

    CentCom Chief Fallon: Petraeus Is ‘An Ass-Kissing, Little Chickensh*t,’ ‘I Hate People Like That’

    During the Iraq war, the Central Command (CENTCOM) head — who leads U.S. operations in the entire Middle East region — and the Multinational Force Commander (MNF) have regularly testified together about the course of the war in Iraq.

    Former-MNF Commander Gen. George Casey and his CENTCOM Commander Gen. John Abizaid constantly briefed Congress about the situation in Iraq and its regional effects. In at least four public hearings after Casey took office in 2004, the pair testified together:

    Senate Armed Services [6/23/05]

    House Armed Services [6/23/05]

    House Armed Services [9/29/05]

    Senate Armed Services [9/29/05]

    In January, President Bush replaced Abizaid and Casey, who were “surge” skeptics, with Adm. William Fallon and Gen. David Petraeus. This week, Petraeus — in the first public hearings since taking on his new role — delivered his Iraq assessment to great media fanfare. But where was his boss, Admiral Fallon? Inter-Press Service suggests animosity between the two might be one reason for Fallon’s absence:

    Fallon told Petraeus [in March] that he considered him to be “an ass-kissing little chickensh*t” and added, “I hate people like that”, the sources say. That remark reportedly came after Petraeus began the meeting by making remarks that Fallon interpreted as trying to ingratiate himself with a superior.

    The Washington Post reported this weekend that there is an internal military debate, described as “Armageddon,” brewing between Petraeus and Fallon because the two men have “profoundly different views of the U.S. role in Iraq.”

    Sen. Jim Webb (D-VA) announced today that he will be asking Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI) to call Fallon to testify on “his views on the region.” Webb decried the lack of independence in Petraeus’s reporting, observing that there are “a lot of control factors going on that haven’t been visible” from the one-sided testimony of Petraeus:

    WEBB: [T]here’s something of a kabuki going on right now. You know, the Petraeus report was brought in. On the one hand they’re calling it independent; on the other, General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker, from my understanding, gave a one-hour exclusive interview to Fox News after their first day of testimony. […]

    So it was a very narrow and focused two days of hearings…we need to hear from people like Admiral Fallon and others to get a sense of how the region is in play. … He was, by many accounts, questioning keeping these troop levels this high. […]

    So I’m going to be recommending to Senator Levin that we get Admiral Fallon in and get his views on the region.

  6. #56
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Crocker was on CNN today FWIW.

  7. #57
    "Have to check the film" PixelPusher's Avatar
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    In your opinion, right? With what certainty? If you are stating it as fact, then I suggest you go and testify.
    Testify about what? WTF are you talking about?

    Yes, WC, I'm certain that General Petraeus refused to offer an opinion on the efficacy of the Iraq War as a whole when Senator Warner asked him, and stuck to his narrowly prescribed assertion about the troop surge. I'm certain because I heard the testimony on the radio, and saw it again on that youtube link.

  8. #58
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    the surge is great, if you think performing plastic surgery on a dead guy is a fruitful endeavour.

    it will fillup more boxes, though.

  9. #59
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I pity those of you who live with that defeatist at ude.

  10. #60
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    I pity those of you who live with that defeatist at ude.

    It's called being realistic.. you should try it..

  11. #61
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    It's called being realistic.. you should try it..
    I am realistic, rather than an emotional driven woosie liberal.

  12. #62
    "Have to check the film" PixelPusher's Avatar
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    I pity those of you who live with that defeatist at ude.
    I pity those who value "saving face" more than getting it right.

  13. #63
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I pity those who value "saving face" more than getting it right.
    So, you are already declaring a loss.

    I feel otherwise. ing quitters.

  14. #64
    "Have to check the film" PixelPusher's Avatar
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    So, you are already declaring a loss.

    I feel otherwise. ing quitters.
    Saddam's regime was defeated years ago. The "War on Terror" will continue regardless of how Iraq turns out. How many more soldiers/Iraqis have to die before your pride, er..."honor" is sastisfied that we should withdraw and try engaging the ME differently?

  15. #65
    Purrrrrrrrrrrr Holt's Cat's Avatar
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    This is ing insane. It's a mistake, we know it's a mistake, yet we must throw away more lives because we cannot bring ourselves to admit it was a mistake.

    You know what, sign up and go fight the good fight. Stop expecting the poor to fight the fight you wish to continue.

  16. #66
    Purrrrrrrrrrrr Holt's Cat's Avatar
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    So it's no longer the "War On Terror" it's the "War For Honor (or How I learned to stop worrying and fellate George W Bush)".

    Since when are the political fortunes of a president in the national interest?

  17. #67
    Purrrrrrrrrrrr Holt's Cat's Avatar
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    You know what we need? We need another fat bimbo to blow Bill Clinton. Now that is a national emergency.

  18. #68
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Saddam's regime was defeated years ago. The "War on Terror" will continue regardless of how Iraq turns out. How many more soldiers/Iraqis have to die before your pride, er..."honor" is sastisfied that we should withdraw and try engaging the ME differently?
    How many more people have to die? Many more, of course.

    I wish people would look at the death statistics from other things and try to correct those problems. How many traffic accidents are avoidable, but people drive recklessly and tailgate. I'd like to see some actions taken here at home that reduce deaths. Will that ever happen? Why not spend your efforts close to home. Report reckless driving. You may save someone’s life that way!

    War is , and the purpose is to kill people and break things. We have no problem recruiting soldiers today, so why must people stand in their way? They know what they are getting into. People like you are attempting to hinder their freedoms! They are putting their lives on the line, not yours.

  19. #69
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    How many traffic accidents are avoidable, but people drive recklessly and tailgate.
    How many military deaths are avoidable, but leaders make huge mistakes and compound them with more mistakes?
    People like you are attempting to hinder their freedoms!
    By keeping them alive?
    They are putting their lives on the line, not yours.
    I regret that so many have been needlessly wasted.

  20. #70
    Purrrrrrrrrrrr Holt's Cat's Avatar
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    Many more have to die because Bush cannot admit he sold a bill of goods to the American people. Bush should seek to preserve his honor by admitting that the reasons given for the invasion were wrong.

  21. #71
    "Have to check the film" PixelPusher's Avatar
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    Many more have to die because Bush cannot admit he sold a bill of goods to the American people. Bush should seek to preserve his honor by admitting that the reasons given for the invasion were wrong.
    You damn pussies just don't understand what honor is all about

  22. #72
    Purrrrrrrrrrrr Holt's Cat's Avatar
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    How many more people have to die? Many more, of course.
    "Of course"? That's absurd. What is the perpetual war for now? Because we have to fight for "freedom"? Freedom from what? The only group I see trying to take away my freedom isn't based in the Middle East. They are based in Washington DC and you'd be well served to figure it out.

  23. #73
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    The only group I see trying to take away my freedom isn't based in the Middle East. They are based in Washington DC and you'd be well served to figure it out.
    Read the cons ution and use a "Blacks Law" dictionary or equivalent to define some of the terms. Use a century old, or older dictionary to look up the non legal terms. Understand the language of the time, and you will see that the cons ution is not being violated, but rather being supported by our president when it comes to this war on terror.

    That's all I'll say about that topic on this thread. Want a cons utional discussion, start a new thread.

  24. #74
    Purrrrrrrrrrrr Holt's Cat's Avatar
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    When did Congress declare war on Iraq? I can't imagine that the definition of war has changed that much since 1787.

  25. #75
    Purrrrrrrrrrrr Holt's Cat's Avatar
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    Undoubtedly what the Framers intended was...

    We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and preserve the legacy of future president George Walker Bush of Connecticut do declare this Cons ution for the United States of America.

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