Devin Harris 5 yr. extension w/Mavs

[da_suns_fan__]

You're an idiot, but that's nothing new. Diop is a nice young player, but he's foul-prone and doesn't have the stamina to play starter's minutes. You can't rely on him to play 40 minutes a game against Duncan. And what would you know or your team know about defense in general, specifically about how to defend a player like Duncan? Nobody guards Duncan well, but Dampier does as nice a job as possible.



Really?

G1 - Diop 16 minutes, Dampier 28
G2 - Diop 20, Damp 15 (blowout win for Dallas)
G3 - Diop 19, Damp 24
G4 - Diop 13, Damp 36
G5 - Diop 24, Damp 17 (foul trouble for Damp)
G6 - Diop 6, Damp 26
G7 - Diop 10, Damp 26



I keep bringing up the fact that the Mavs let Nash walk and got better without him. I keep bringing up the fact that the Mavs went further (Finals appearance, victory over championship-caliber team) than they ever did with Nash (conference finals and a loss to a championship-caliber team). By any objective measure, the Mavs are a better team now without Nash than they were with him. That's not a mark against Nash, he's a very good player, and he's helped turn Phoenix around from a crap team to a very good regular season team, but it's just the facts.



"Leadership" isn't going to stop Dwyane Wade or Baron Davis.



It sure isn't his defense or his stamina and ability to play at a high level deep into the playoffs.



Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant are MVPs. White sportswriters who never played the game doling out that award, be it to Nash or Dirk, that means nothing.



As well as eliminating Nash and his new team from the playoffs.



Hmm, he played heavy minutes against the Spurs and without him we don't beat San Antonio. Whatever you say, da_suns_dumbass.




God, I feel sorry for you at this point. This is just getting too easy. Nash is a very good player, but he's not Jesus, okay?

2003-04 Mavs: 52 wins, first-round exit.

Post-Nash:

2004-05 Mavs: 58 wins, second-round exit

2005-06 Mavs: 60 wins, Finals loss.

2006-07 Mavs: 67 wins, first-round exit.

Losing Nash has cost us a playmaking point guard adept at creating for himself and others, no more, no less. Steve Nash is too one-dimensional a player to ever lead a team to a le.

FinDog:

Just because Dirk showed his true colors in the playoffs, doesn't mean Steve Nash is undeserving of his MVP awards. Nash isn't the best player in the league, but he IS the MVP.

Its a defense mechanism on your part. Youre trying to pull Steve Nash into the same boat as Dirk. Sorry buddy, Nash didn't choke like Dirk did.

Also, Nash doesn't stop Dwayne Wade or Baron Davis, but it wouldn't have mattered. Nash would have EASILY beaten the Miami Heat (do you have ANY idea of the BLOWOUTS the Suns have against Miami every years since Nash has arrived). That would have been AT LEAST one championship for the Mavs.

And youre "Cherry picking data" again with your history. You say that the Mavs won 52 games with Nash the year before he left, but didn't they win 60 games with Nash in 2003? Not to mention that the Mavs from 2006 have how many hold overs from 2004? They're very different teams.

Also, when a players plays 30 minutes or more in ONE game in a seven game series, you can't say that he played "heavy minutes"

Also, what happened THIS year (remember the links I provided that you COMPLETELY ignored)? Is Diop better than Dampier NOW?

Lastly, you think you know Steve Nash better than Suns fans, but what you don't realize is that Nash elevated his game when he left Dallas. He's a MUCH better player now that he ever was in Dallas. Amazingly, he seems to get better every year he plays.

Mavs fans are left to wonder "what could have been".

[Findog]

Just because Dirk showed his true colors in the playoffs, doesn't mean Steve Nash is undeserving of his MVP awards. Nash isn't the best player in the league, but he IS the MVP.

Uh, no, he's not. He plays no defense and he's overrated. Is he more valuable than Duncan? No. He is more valuable than Kobe? No.

Its a defense mechanism on your part. Youre trying to pull Steve Nash into the same boat as Dirk. Sorry buddy, Nash didn't choke like Dirk did.

Nash didn't lead his team to the Finals or beat San Antonio like Dirk did either. Nash has shown his true colors in the playoffs: he's great for SportsCenter highlights, he's great for leading the Suns to 55+ wins, but he always physically breaks down the deeper into the playoffs his teams go. Face it, Dirk has a better playoff resume than Nash, Golden State and Miami included.

Also, Nash doesn't stop Dwayne Wade or Baron Davis, but those players can't stop Nash either. And Nash would have EASILY beaten the Miami (do you have ANY idea of the BLOWOUTS the Suns have against Miami every years since Nash has arrived).

The Mavs beat the Shaq-Wade Heat four straight times and rather easily before the Finals. Of course a Suns fan would have a hard time understanding that regular season results don't necessarily repeat in the playoffs. A Miami-Phoenix matchup is certainly intringuing, but of course it will always be a hypothetical one since the Suns can't beat San Antonio. Is it automatic the Suns beat Miami when they have nobody to guard Shaq? If Raja Bell can't guard Kobe, can he guard Wade? I'm not arguing Miami would definitely beat Phoenix, but I have no more confidence Phoenix could beat Miami when the games are called tighter and when they are inevitably played at a half-court pace in the Finals.

would have been AT LEAST one championship for the Mavs.

I shudder to think of what kind of numbers Shaq would've put up if we had Nash instead of Dampier. Of course, it's a moot point, since we never would've even gotten that far.

And youre "Cherry picking data" again with your history. You say that the Mavs won 52 games with Nash the year before he left, but didn't they win 60 games with Nash in 2003?

They also lost to the Spurs in the conference finals without a decent big to guard Duncan.

Not to mention that the Mavs from 2006 have how many hold overs from 2004? They're very different teams.

Exactly, we're a much better team now than we were with Nash.

Also, when a players plays 30 minutes or more in ONE game in a seven game series, you can't say that he played "heavy minutes"

This from a guy who argued Diop plays more than Damp against San Antonio.

Also, what happened THIS year (remember the links I provided that you COMPLETELY ignored)? Is Diop better than Dampier NOW?

Diop lost 80 lbs after sitting on the bench for Cleveland. He doesn't have the conditioning or stamina to play starter's minutes like Damp. If it's a sprint, I take Diop. If it's a marathon, I take Damp.

Lastly, you think you know Steve Nash better than Suns fans, but what you don't realize is that Nash elevated his game when he left Dallas. He's a MUCH better player now that he ever was in Dallas. Amazingly, he seems to get better every year he plays.

True, I don't watch the Suns club Milwaukee or Charlotte in February, but nothing has changed with him. He's on a team that is a better fit for his skillset, nothing more, nothing less.

Mavs fans are left to wonder "what could have been".

That's easy. 50+ wins and never getting past San Antonio. Something you're now very familiar with.

[da_suns_fan__]

Uh, no, he's not. He plays no defense and he's overrated. Is he more valuable than Duncan? No. He is more valuable than Kobe? No.




Nash didn't lead his team to the Finals or beat San Antonio like Dirk did either. Nash has shown his true colors in the playoffs: he's great for SportsCenter highlights, he's great for leading the Suns to 55+ wins, but he always physically breaks down the deeper into the playoffs his teams go. Face it, Dirk has a better playoff resume than Nash, Golden State and Miami included.



The Mavs beat the Shaq-Wade Heat four straight times and rather easily before the Finals. Of course a Suns fan would have a hard time understanding that regular season results don't necessarily repeat in the playoffs. A Miami-Phoenix matchup is certainly intringuing, but of course it will always be a hypothetical one since the Suns can't beat San Antonio. Is it automatic the Suns beat Miami when they have nobody to guard Shaq? If Raja Bell can't guard Kobe, can he guard Wade? I'm not arguing Miami would definitely beat Phoenix, but I have no more confidence Phoenix could beat Miami when the games are called tighter and when they are inevitably played at a half-court pace in the Finals.



I shudder to think of what kind of numbers Shaq would've put up if we had Nash instead of Dampier. Of course, it's a moot point, since we never would've even gotten that far.



They also lost to the Spurs in the conference finals without a decent big to guard Duncan.



Exactly, we're a much better team now than we were with Nash.



This from a guy who argued Diop plays more than Damp against San Antonio.




Diop lost 80 lbs after sitting on the bench for Cleveland. He doesn't have the conditioning or stamina to play starter's minutes like Damp. If it's a sprint, I take Diop. If it's a marathon, I take Damp.



True, I don't watch the Suns club Milwaukee or Charlotte in February, but nothing has changed with him. He's on a team that is a better fit for his skillset, nothing more, nothing less.



That's easy. 50+ wins and never getting past San Antonio. Something you're now very familiar with.

Dumbass...he does play more than Damp against the Spurs.

It the words of Ronald Reagan:

There you go again.

Cherry picking data. You LOVE to do that, don't you? Just IGNORE stats from last year since they don't support your argument, right? Diop played more against the Spurs than Damp last year buddy, get OVER IT! He was a wasted signing.

btw - Another example is when you claim the Mavs are a better team in 2006 than they were in 2004 cuz they lost Nash?

Im not a Mavs fan, but Im trying to think of all the players that didn't appear on those two teams besides Nash:

Michael Finley
Antawn Jamison
Antoione Walker
Tony Delk
Shawn Bradley
Desagna Diop
Devin Harris
Jerry Stackhouse

Not to mention they went from Don Nelson to Avery Johnson.

So the Mavs completely overhaul their lineup, change coaches, get farther than they ever had and you want to attribute it all to getting rid of Steve Nash, who has won 2 MVPs, won more playoff victories than the Mavericks since he left Dallas, and demonstrated the leadership that kept the Mavericks from their ultimate goal?

Do you know how easy it is to consistently own your ass on a daily basis?

[Findog]

Why use stats from last year when they don't support your argument, right? Diop played more against the Spurs than Damp last year buddy, get OVER IT! He was a wasted signing.

We didn't play San Antonio in the playoffs last year. I was using the most recent example of when we did. Again, since all you have as a Suns fan is regular season success and nothing more, I know you're clearly not familiar with the concept of how a rotation changes and the distribution of minutes changes once you're in a seven-game series as opposed to a random regular season meeting, but you'll just have to defer to me on this.

Another example is when you claim the Mavs are a better team in 2006 than they were in 2004 cuz they lost Nash?

We used his salary slot to get a big that could be counted upon to guard Duncan. Does he shut Duncan down? Of course not. Does he allow us to get away without double-teaming him all the time? Yes. We can't do that with Nash. We didn't have the money to sign a big that could start.

I'm just going on facts. We're a better team now than we were with Nash. We're a better defensive team than we were with Nash. I know you're a Suns fan, and you and your team have a hard time with this concept, but defense matters in the playoffs.

So the Mavs completely overhaul their lineup, change coaches, get farther than they ever had and you want to attribute it all to getting rid of Steve Nash, who has won 2 MVPs, won more playoff victories than the Mavericks since he left Dallas, and demonstrated the leadership that kept the Mavericks from their ultimate goal?

I attribute our success to the fact that I'd rather have Devin Harris defend Tony Parker than Steve Nash, and I'd rather have Erick Dampier guard Tim Duncan than Alan Henderson, Shawn Bradley or any of the other spares we trotted out there. You don't seem to understand the concept of a salary cap: We couldn't have both Nash and a big man. Nash's team has also been eliminated by the Mavericks, hasn't gotten as far as the Mavericks, and Phoenix's three-year body of work isn't nearly as impressive as ours.

And keep consoling yourself with Stevie's two MVP awards. You already conceded he isn't as good as Duncan or Kobe, so you admit it's a meaningless award. Why do you keep bringing it up? It's not impressive at all. Steve Nash can't guard Dwyane Wade, Tony Parker or Baron Davis. He wouldn't have helped us.

Phoenix has beaten the following teams since Nash arrived: Memphis, Dallas, LA Lakers, LA Clippers, LA Lakers. One impressive series win, and that was against a Dallas team that had a new coach in midseason and hadn't had a full year with Avery yet. Compare that to Dallas: Houston, Memphis, San Antonio, Phoenix. Three impressive series wins.

Do you know how easy it is to consistently own your ass on a daily basis?

[da_suns_fan__]

We didn't play San Antonio in the playoffs last year. I was using the most recent example of when we did. Again, since all you have as a Suns fan is regular season success and nothing more, I know you're clearly not familiar with the concept of how a rotation changes and the distribution of minutes changes once you're in a seven-game series as opposed to a random regular season meeting, but you'll just have to defer to me on this.




We used his salary slot to get a big that could be counted upon to guard Duncan. Does he shut Duncan down? Of course not. Does he allow us to get away without double-teaming him all the time? Yes. We can't do that with Nash. We didn't have the money to sign a big that could start.

I'm just going on facts. We're a better team now than we were with Nash. We're a better defensive team than we were with Nash. I know you're a Suns fan, and you and your team have a hard time with this concept, but defense matters in the playoffs.





I attribute our success to the fact that I'd rather have Devin Harris defend Tony Parker than Steve Nash, and I'd rather have Erick Dampier guard Tim Duncan than Alan Henderson, Shawn Bradley or any of the other spares we trotted out there. You don't seem to understand the concept of a salary cap: We couldn't have both Nash and a big man. Nash's team has also been eliminated by the Mavericks, hasn't gotten as far as the Mavericks, and Phoenix's three-year body of work isn't nearly as impressive as ours.

And keep consoling yourself with Stevie's two MVP awards. You already conceded he isn't as good as Duncan or Kobe, so you admit it's a meaningless award. Why do you keep bringing it up? It's not impressive at all. Steve Nash can't guard Dwyane Wade, Tony Parker or Baron Davis. He wouldn't have helped us.

Phoenix has beaten the following teams since Nash arrived: Memphis, Dallas, LA Lakers, LA Clippers, LA Lakers. One impressive series win, and that was against a Dallas team that had a new coach in midseason and hadn't had a full year with Avery yet. Compare that to Dallas: Houston, Memphis, San Antonio, Phoenix. Three impressive series wins.

You just don't learn with the "cherry picking" do you?

Nash has made it farther in the playoffs than the Mavericks 2 out of 3 times since he left Dallas. But you only want to talk about that one season he didn't.

You claim that the Suns have one decent playoff victor and point out that Dallas was handicapped for various reasons for THAT one, and then you claim that the Mavs have THREE decent playoff victories against the Rockets, the Spurs and against the Suns.

For some reason, you forgot to mention the Suns were missing 3 of their "seven starters" due to injury in that series and the Rockets were a five seed who were average at best.



Also, the fact that Mavs beat the Spurs is moot....They still LOST to the Heat becuase they lacked the talents of a Steve Nash!

And MVP doesn't stand for "best player". Nash IS the MVP. Its not a worthless award. You want to pretend it is because Dirk disgraced it by losing in the first round to an eigth seed. Steve Nash would NEVER let that happen.

Don't hate on Steve Nash's post-Dallas accomplishments just because your Mavs continue to embarrass you.

[mavs>spurs2]

Mavs are better without Nash bottom line

He might be the MVP in Phoenix with their style of play, but thats as far as it goes

Us fans in Dallas know that gimmick style of play will never win you a championship and it's not coincidence that we are a much better team post Nash.

[mavsfan1000]

Mavs are better without Nash bottom line

He might be the MVP in Phoenix with their style of play, but thats as far as it goes

Us fans in Dallas know that gimmick style of play will never win you a championship and it's not coincidence that we are a much better team post Nash.

I don't quite agree with this. Nash was playing year round when he was with Dallas. For that he was wearing down by playoff time. Similar to Dirk has been experiencing still. Nash quit the Canada team once he came to Phoenix. Not surprisingly Nash had much more energy by playoff time. Also Amare is a better fit imo with Nash's game than Dirk was. Amare is a beast when going to the hole but needs someone to dish him the ball. Dirk was better at the one on one game but his shots were mainly jump shots. Therefore Nash really didn't make Dirk that much better if at all. Dirk was still shooting the same percentage and isn't really a slasher.

[Findog]

Nash has made it farther in the playoffs than the Mavericks 2 out of 3 times since he left Dallas. But you only want to talk about that one season he didn't.

The Mavericks have done something the Suns haven't: beat a championship-caliber team and make a Finals. Even with Golden State, the Mavericks have to be accorded more respect and taken more seriously as a championship contender because they've gone further and demonstrated a capability Phoenix hasn't. As for Phoenix beating a Laker team last year, congratulations. I'm very impressed.

For some reason, you forgot to mention the Suns were missing 3 of their "seven starters" due to injury in that series and the Rockets were a five seed who were average at best.

Nash and Amare together are 7-5 against Dallas. I'll take my chances against them in a playoff series. As for Raja Bell, he didn't miss the entire series, and if you want to posit that Raja Bell is the difference maker between winning and losing, be my guest. The Rockets team we faced won 53 games, had Yao and TMac. How you call them average, I don't know, but then again, you're da_suns_dumbass.

Also, the fact that Mavs beat the Spurs is moot....They still LOST to the Heat becuase they lacked the talents of a Steve Nash!

We lost to Miami because our perimeter defense sucked and we had nobody to guard Wade. Fail to see how Nash would've helped with that.

And MVP doesn't stand for "best player". Nash IS the MVP. Its not a worthless award. You want to pretend it is because Dirk disgraced it by losing in the first round to an eigth seed. Steve Nash would NEVER let that happen

I just don't care about regular season results and regular season awards. No GM would take Nash over Duncan or Kobe. He isn't more valuable to his team than they are to theirs. I hope my team gets better and wins a le, I don't blather on about MVP awards and tv ratings. Warriors beat the Suns last year and play the same kind of up-tempo game. Suns would probably have beaten Golden State, but it's not a sure thing.

Don't hate on Steve Nash's post-Dallas accomplishments just because your Mavs continue to embarrass you

I love Steve Nash, but I'd rather be truthful than be a blind homer. The embarassment in this thread is all yours.

[Dalhoop]

Nash with the Mavs was a differnt player because of his skill set and the players around him.

He has the big assist numbers on the Suns because of one play, the lob to the rim. When he was with the Mavs, they didn't have the players that could take advantage of that play. Finley and Dirk are not "high fliers", they are shooters.

What Nash has in the Suns team is a team of leapers. Nash is very good at passing the ball and the alley-oop is a play that the Suns run 5-6 times a game. With the Mavs we saw that play around once every couple of games (Most of the time Jamison)

The Suns are made for his skill set, the Mavs were not. He is the same player he was with the Mavs but with a supporting cast more in line with what he does best.

I wish him the best, but at the same time, the mavs are doing just fine without him.

[Findog]

The Suns are made for his skill set, the Mavs were not. He is the same player he was with the Mavs but with a supporting cast more in line with what he does best.

I wish him the best, but at the same time, the mavs are doing just fine without him.

Which goes to the heart of my argument: how can a team lose an "MVP" and get better? The Lakers got Caron Butler and Lamar Odom in exchange for Shaq, and went from the Finals to out of the playoffs. The Mavs lost an All-Star PG and got a mediocre big in return, and got better.

I love Nash, as a player and as a person, but he's overrated.

[FromWayDowntown]

They're definitely paying Harris more on his potential than his production (which is always a dangerous thing).

Comparing Parker and Harris from a salary standpoint might also demonstrate that the Spurs got a substantial bargain in re-signing Parker when they did. It's hard to believe that the deal with Parker almost didn't happen because of a total $2 million difference over the life of a 6 year contract (not $2M per, but $64 instead of $66).

[Dirk Nowitzki]

I love Nash, as a player and as a person, but he's overrated.

In ways you can kinda say that about Dirk. I love my boys but Dirk really let me down this year. Not only am I dissapointed in him...I am also really concerned about his heart. I know I am reading too much into this but it really pissed me the off when he told the press game 4 was win or go home or that the warriors were getting to him. He cant play defense any better than Nash. Dirks other stength other than scoring is rebounding while Nash's is assists. Of course they play different positions but I wont argue that letting Nash was not a mistake. A big reason we managed to beat the Spurs was because Shawn Bradley was replaced by Diop which IMO was A HUGE UPGRADE. Having extra bigs really put us in that position.

[K-State Spur]

Terry, Stackhouse, Dirk, Howard and now Harris locked through '10-'12 (Dampier as well, but whos count him )

Add to that around 23M coming off the books after this season (Finley and Bradley) .... I like what this team is doing.

That 23 M only saves Cuban. Mavs will still be well over the cap and tax numbers.

[duncan228]

A big reason we managed to beat the Spurs was because Shawn Bradley was replaced by Diop which IMO was A HUGE UPGRADE. Having extra bigs really put us in that position.

It was huge in overtime in game 7.
Duncan depleted, Diop fresh.

I believe it would have ended differently if Duncan had anything left in the tank after a season playing through planter faciitis.

Extra bigs did the Mavs a world of good that series.

[Dirk Nowitzki]

It was huge in overtime in game 7.
Duncan depleted, Diop fresh.

I believe it would have ended differently if Duncan had anything left in the tank after a season playing through planter faciitis.

Extra bigs did the Mavs a world of good that series.

Yes it was but the Spurs have had a much better team since while the Mavs made history in a negative way. However we did get to FINALLY have our southwest division banner ceremony and 67 win parade!

[duncan228]

Yes it was but the Spurs have had a much better team since while the Mavs made history in a negative way. However we did get to FINALLY have our southwest division banner ceremony and 67 win parade!

You do make me laugh.
Thanks!

[Cry Havoc]

Is Harris actually planning to play defense this year or just rely on his flop every time the player with the ball touches him?

[Findog]

In ways you can kinda say that about Dirk. I love my boys but Dirk really let me down this year. Not only am I dissapointed in him...I am also really concerned about his heart. I know I am reading too much into this but it really pissed me the off when he told the press game 4 was win or go home or that the warriors were getting to him.

Oh, I totally agree that there is something to the strain of thought that Dirk is not as mentally tough as he needs to be. There is a validity to that analysis. There seem to be two camps concerning the last two playoff exits: "Dirk isn't a leader and is a soft choker, it's all on him" and "The Mavs as a team were at the mercy of matchups and lost as a team due to X's and O's." I think the truth is somewhere in between. My main argument with dah_suns_dumbass is that results don't lie: The Mavs are better now than they were when Nash played for us. We've accomplished more without him than with him. Part of that is correlation and part of it is causation.

While it wasn't great for us that he went to a conference compe or and strengthened them in the process, it's not "the worst move in NBA history." You could argue it was a mistake, you could argue it was a pragmatic decision to take the team in another direction that has mostly paid dividends, but his argument is indefensible hyperbole.

Nor can da_suns_dumbass credibly argue that letting Nash walk to Phoenix has cost us "multiple les." If Nash were still here, so too would Nellie, and Nellie just doesn't care about defense. The further you advance into the playoffs, sooner or later you're going to run into the Spurs, and Parker owns Nash.

[TLWisfoine]

Finally some news from Mavs land. I'm not big on signing contracts on potential, but I just like Devin so much and think he's actually underappreciated that I don't mind as much. For now anyways!!!

[TLWisfoine]

YOU seemed pretty upset about losing this "trash" on page one of this thread.

I get it, though. You guys can say it was a stupid move, but don't like to hear anyone else say it.

He's right the move was stupid. We have only made it to the finals something that we couldn't do with Nash here while Nash has...

[TLWisfoine]

Except that you probably don't go after Terry if Nash is still in the fold.

Or Dampier. I don't care what many Mavs fans say Dampier is a solid contributor to the team. Yes he is overpaid, but its not like he's some scab or something, and is much better than what we had previously.

[TLWisfoine]

Harris>Barbosa
Outside shooting Barbosa
Slashing Harris
Passing Harris
Defense Harris

Period.

[Dalhoop]

That 23 M only saves Cuban. Mavs will still be well over the cap and tax numbers.

This is true, but for awhile there is was starting to look like we would overtake the Knicks as the team with the highest payroll, dumping 23M will keep the Knick at #1

[TLWisfoine]

Well who wouldn't on this issue?

Take all the bad contracts that have been givin out in NBA history (Kenyan Martin, Raef LaFrentz etc)....take the WORST one and yourself this:

Which was a worse GM move, that terrible contract or the Mavs NOT signing Steve Nash for just over 10 million?

How about Phoenix letting one of the games best point guards go to New Jersey.