Manu or Parker. Who do you keep?

[ALVAREZ6]

Pretty funny. Parker is overrated? What does that make Manu then?

I like them both, but both are overrated by Spur fans, who think they should be All-Stars despite their extreme inconsistencies.

The painful and boring truth is that as long as you have Tim Duncan, you're a championship contender. Everyone else is just a complimentary piece who could be exchanged for any one of 10-15 other players in the league.

They're not overrated!

I guess winning the Gold Medal last summer is no proof...
after last summer, Manu is overrated?

[smeagol]

Pretty funny. Parker is overrated? What does that make Manu then?

I like them both, but both are overrated by Spur fans, who think they should be All-Stars despite their extreme inconsistencies.

The painful and boring truth is that as long as you have Tim Duncan, you're a championship contender. Everyone else is just a complimentary piece who could be exchanged for any one of 10-15 other players in the league.

Shoog, you might wanna rethink that statement.

Manu and Parker are not All-stars, but they are borderline All stars (i.e. top 10 or 12 in their positions).

[ShoogarBear]

I guess winning the Gold Medal last summer is no proof... after last summer, Manu is overrated?

Ah, I see people are getting back from Sunday services at the Church of Manu.

Based on the Olympics, Manu > LeBron and Pau Gasol > Duncan (funny how no one mentions that second one).

Shoog, you might wanna rethink that statement.

Manu and Parker are not All-stars, but they are borderline All stars (i.e. top 10 or 12 in their positions).

I said they could be "exchanged for any one of 10-15 other players in the league". So what is there to rethink, based on your statement?

Is Duncan really that good? Would his presense and 4 marginal players alone make a team championship contenders? Or are you saying Duncan and any all star and combo of three other marginal players are just as good as this squad, or better by default?

I didn't say any of that. What I said was that you could replace Parker and/or Manu with several other people without any appreciable dropoff (and in some cases, with improvement).

The only person whom you could even remotely think about replacing Duncan with is KG.

[smeagol]

I said they could be "exchanged for any one of 10-15 other players in the league". So what is there to rethink, based on your statement?

You implied "any 10-15 players in the league" because they are both (TP and Manu) overrated (according to you). Name those 10-15 players (i.e 7-8 PGs and 7-8 SGs) that can replace them so easily. I can bet your list will be full of all-stars or borderline all star players.

You cannot replace Tony and Manu with any PG or SG and expect the Spurs to be contenders just because they have TD in their ranks.

[Nikos]

I didn't say any of that. What I said was that you could replace Parker and/or Manu with several other people without any appreciable dropoff (and in some cases, with improvement).

Obviously. You could replace some all stars with borderline all stars and you might not see a drop off either. Thats not the issue though. Many people at best are saying that Manu and Tp deserve all-star consideration. Whoever says Manu is > Kobe or whatever is obviously someone not even worth arguing over.

The whole point of the olympics is to show that Manu is capable of being an all star calibur player on his best days. He has a good overall game and has leadership qualities. He is still inconsistent yes, but so are several players. Even some players who are considered better, and are much more consistent scorers are also "extremely inconsistent".

I don't think they are all stars right now, but I don't see the point in arguing with Manu worshippers who only want to see him succeed.

Personally I want TP and Manu to succeed AT THE SAME time. I would like to see some offensive consistency from the team itself as well. But by reading your post, you almost made it sound like any mediocre scorer or player can replace our backcourt and the team would still be considered a le contender. I am not sure agree with that. Duncan is good, but not THAT good to take 4 mediocre players and win a le.

Now either Duncan is close to MJ level, or Manu and TP are at least slightly above average starters at their positions.

Which do you think it is?

[ShoogarBear]

You implied "any 10-15 players in the league" because they are both (TP and Manu) overrated (according to you). Name those 10-15 players (i.e 7-8 PGs and 7-8 SFs) that can replace them so easily. I can bet your list will be full of all-stars or borderline all star players. You cannot replace Tony and Manu with any PG or SF and expect the Spurs to be contenders just because they have TD in their ranks.

Maybe this is a language translation problem, but I didn't say you could replace them with any player. "Any one of 10-15" implies that they are therefore among the top 10-15.

Anyway, you wanted a list, here's a list. It's actually well over 20 names. Some of these guys are clearly better than TP and Manu, some are not. Some might not be better fits. The point is that neither one is so irreplacable a talent that if one of these guys were swapped out, the Spurs would lose little, if anything, on the whole. (Of course it doesn't matter that I just wrote that, some numbnuts will now post "you think Francis is better than TP!")

Iverson, Pierce, Nash, Francis, Redd, Allen, Bibby, Bryant, JRich, QRich, Cassell, Sprewell, Hamilton, Crawford, Hinrich, LeBron, Marbury, Wade, Jefferson, Hill, Marion, Joe Johnson, McGrady.

Obviously. You could replace some all stars with borderline all stars and you might not see a drop off either. Thats not the issue though. Many people at best are saying that Manu and Tp deserve all-star consideration. Whoever says Manu is > Kobe or whatever is obviously someone not even worth arguing over.

But that's exactly the point. People are saying Manu would be the MVP of the All-Star game.

I don't think they are all stars right now, but I don't see the point in arguing with Manu worshippers who only want to see him succeed.

Sorry, but I can't respect people who have no degree of objectivity when it comes to their favorite team or players. Even when it's my team.

Personally I want TP and Manu to succeed AT THE SAME time. I would like to see some offensive consistency from the team itself as well. But by reading your post, you almost made it sound like any mediocre scorer or player can replace our backcourt and the team would still be considered a le contender. I am not sure agree with that. Duncan is good, but not THAT good to take 4 mediocre players and win a le.

No, I didn't. You fall into the same trap as the Manu worshipers. Because I didn't say he's the greatest player in the history of the planet, then I must have said he's mediocre. Find the word mediocre, or even the implication, in anything I wrote.

Now either Duncan is close to MJ level, or Manu and TP are at least slightly above average starters at their positions.

Which do you think it is?

This one's easy. When Duncan retires, he will be considered among the top 2-3 PFs and the top 10 players of all time. He's not MJ, but he's at the next level down.

[ALVAREZ6]

Iverson, Pierce, Nash, Francis, Redd, Allen, Bibby, Bryant, JRich, QRich, Cassell, Sprewell, Hamilton, Crawford, Hinrich, LeBron, Marbury, Wade, Jefferson, Hill, Marion, Joe Johnson, McGrady.

JRich, try again, hes pure dunk.
QRich, nope sorry.
Sprewell, no
Crawford, questionable
Hinrich, no sorry
Jefferson, just dunks
Johnson, hmmmm..

might want to re-consider.
Did you watch the Olympics this summer?

[Nikos]

Pretty funny. Parker is overrated? What does that make Manu then?

I like them both, but both are overrated by Spur fans, who think they should be All-Stars despite their extreme inconsistencies.

The painful and boring truth is that as long as you have Tim Duncan, you're a championship contender. Everyone else is just a complimentary piece who could be exchanged for any one of 10-15 other players in the league.

The extremely inconsistent part, and the part where you say if you have Tim Duncan you are a championship contender.

Obviously Duncan is one of the best frontline players in the league to have leading to a championship, but to me I look at that as if, any solid backcourt player in this league can come in and it would not make a difference as far as the Spurs le hopes.

Just because a few homers overrate and worship him does not mean they are extremely inconsistent or not worthy of even being 'considered' for an all star game.

[smeagol]

Maybe this is a language translation problem, but I didn't say you could replace them with any player. "Any one of 10-15" implies that they are therefore among the top 10-15.

No language translation problem here. You have defined you position a little better and I believe we are on the same page. I too believe Manu and TP are top 15 players in their positions. Actually, my assesment is Manu top 10, TP top 7.

Anyway, you wanted a list, here's a list. It's actually well over 20 names. Some of these guys are clearly better than TP and Manu, some are not. Some might not be better fits. The point is that neither one is so irreplacable a talent that if one of these guys were swapped out, the Spurs would lose little, if anything, on the whole. (Of course it doesn't matter that I just wrote that, some numbnuts will now post "you think Francis is better than TP!")

Iverson, Pierce, Nash, Francis, Redd, Allen, Bibby, Bryant, JRich, QRich, Cassell, Sprewell, Hamilton, Crawford, Hinrich, LeBron, Marbury, Wade, Jefferson, Hill, Marion, Joe Johnson, McGrady.

As with any list, you can easily argue for or against some of those names. I would rather have Manu or TP than Francis, JRich, Sprewell, Crawford, Hienrich, Jefferson and Joe Joehnson. But thats just me.

And it pretty obvious Manu is not irreplaceable.

But that's exactly the point. People are saying Manu would be the MVP of the All-Star game.

Who said that? LINK please.

Because I didn't say he's the greatest player in the history of the planet, then I must have said he's mediocre. Find the word mediocre, or even the implication, in anything I wrote.

When you say . . .

Everyone else is just a complimentary piece . . .

. . . that to me implies you consider TP and MG are your average, run of the mill player.

Then you went on saying ". . . could be replaced with for any one of 10-15 other players in the league", which in itself is not a very clear statement until you specify to which players you were referring.

Finally, at my humble request, you came up with a list which includes: Kobe, TMac, AI, Allen, Bibby, Marbury, Cassell, Nash, Wade, Hill, Marion, Redd, King James, all of whom have been All Stars or will be All Stars in the near future. The rest of the guys in your list are, IMO, ARE questionable.

So bottom line: Manu and TP can only be replaced by the best players in the league. That hardly makes them "complementary" players.

[whottt]

Manu...Manu equals a better chance to win right here and now...in Duncan's prime, and Manu's as well.

Parker's got another 6 years before he hits his prime, who knows what he will be like in 6 years if he is this good now?

If I was building a team from scratch and had to pick one, I'd probably pick Parker because his best years are still so far ahead of him...

But if I had to choose at this moment and especially on a team with Tim Duncan, I go with Manu in a landslide.

And I disagree that you can build a le contender just by throwing random players around Duncan...

In fact, you can't even do that around Duncan and Robinson....it takes a team to win a le, if not necessarily a team of super stars, and there is no such thing as a one man team...

And if you disagree with this then let's bring Smitty, AJ and Ferry back and see how we do...


Edit: And it's time to stop minimizing Manu's achievements in international ball as well as his contributions to this team...

Winning les seems to follow Manu around...in any league, under any rules(can't say that about Pop and Duncan *cough*)...it's not a fluke...and I think most coaches in the NBA realize this as well.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Who are u saying is the ugly one, Johnny?

It's a quote from an episode of "Family Guy".

Peter and Brian are walking down the sidewalk and have this exchange (from memory, so it may not be verbatim).

Peter: Okay, here's another riddle. A crazed murderer breaks into your house and tells you that only one of your children can live. Which one do you choose?

Brian: That, that's not a riddle. That's just sad.

Peter: Wrong! The ugly one!

[TMTTRIO]

Edit: And it's time to stop minimizing Manu's achievements in international ball as well as his contributions to this team...

Winning les seems to follow Manu around...in any league, under any rules(can't say that about Pop and Duncan *cough*)...it's not a fluke...and I think most coaches in the NBA realize this as well.

OK, I've tried to stay out of this but I agree. Almost every team he's been with has won a championship. I also found this old article and it is interesting what Pop says about it

Popovich, a U.S. assistant coach, and Duncan felt a different set of bumps in Athens. But as time passed, Popovich began to see why the United States not winning the gold medal wasn't all bad for his locker room.

"Everybody says the NBA is different and all that," Popovich said. "Well, I was there (in Athens), and that is an emotional, heartfelt, big-time compe ion. Anybody who says less is just copping out."

The way Popovich saw it, Ginobili led Argentina the way great players lead NBA teams.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/c....2134494a.html

[desflood]

Ginobli

[airjer15]

bye Tony

[nzkickass]

I would keep Manu.

[Rummpd]

Beno + Manu not a big drop off so far from Parker + Manu = so logic says take Manu/Brown/Beno and get another big + Barry going and Spurs would be fine.

Not to say I don't like Parker but his inconsistency and his relatively poor FT shooting (how many great PG are not good to great FTs) are troubling for all his talent.

Finally, Manu has done it on the worlds biggest stage for Gold and has a killer at ude only found in a few NBA players = almost unreplicable.

One also wonders if either Parker (especially) or Manu with their bony frames will hold up long-term - can't they hit a few weights in the off season?

MadDoc