Maybe I am just not reading the right articles, but I don't often hear very many of his former teammates speak endearingly about him, Timmy in particular. Not sure he really liked his style (see: Antonio Daniels brought in after TD's rookie year).
I've only heard, even jokingly among some players commentary, that Avery could be a royal pain on a daily basis. , even D-Rob claimed that he loved AJ, but he even got on his nerves. (Recall the Malik Rose scuffle).
I've also heard and read that AJ pretty much ran the team during his last stint with the Spurs. That he had a tremendous amount of influence on personal decisions (see Chucky Brown dismissal).
We all know that winning is a great deodorant and that the 1999 championship season was a true testimony to how a team bands together through adversity. Had they not won it, perhaps we would be hearing more "True Hollywood Stories" about how the failures of that squad and any intimate lockerroom chemistry issues that existed.
That said, I'm wondering if anyone else can substantiate whether there were any chemistry issues or "bad blood" that may have swirled around during AJ's personality duirng his tenure?
We all knew it was going to happen...
I'm just glad AJ got some humiliating ass kickings prior to it happening...he needed to be humbled to remember where he came from. People need to always understand this...the Spurs made AJ, he didn't make them.
RE: Johnny Moore
For the 1,545,534,453,535,534 time....
Johnny Moore's number is not retired soley because of statistical achievement or being a face of the franchice...
His number is retired because his career ended prematurely because of debilitating illness.
The same could be said of Sean Elliott, similar could be said even of James Silas...
The same cannot be said for Avery Johnson...and he was no Ice or Drob either.
AJ, doesn't deserve it, at all, but it's going to happen, and at least he's not going in there like the little he's been since parting ways with the franchise 7-8 years ago. Getting humiliated in the post season the past couple of years has done wonders for his at ude.
At the rate SA is retiring jerseys they'll end up with a team of guys wearing 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s before too many more years go by.
AJ? Not worthy.
Despite his unfortunate illness, Johnny Moore was a good enough player for the organization to at least warrant consideration for jersey retirement. The illness simply made it a no-brainer.
James Silas was the first true star of the Spurs. Before he got hurt, he was better than Gervin. I'm going to type that again, in rude all caps: HE WAS BETTER THAN GEORGE GERVIN BEFORE HE GOT HURT!!! He was a two-time ABA All-Star. He was first team All-ABA in the last year of the league (when it was comparable to the NBA). He beat out David Thompson and George Gervin for first team honors that year. He was second team All-ABA the year before that. In addition, James Silas was the most clutch player in Spurs history, with the exception of Robert Horry.
And Silas played in an era when there weren't necessarily point guards and shooting guards. He was just a guard. His job wasn't strictly to distribute. He was a scorer and a playmaker.
Johnny Moore did lead the league in assists and his career was cut short tragically. You could argue that his assist numbers were bloated by playing with Ice, Mitch, and Gimore in an up tempo game. How hard was it to throw it down on the block to one of those guys? It's not like Jr. was ever a break-you-down off the dribble drive and dish player. Still, he was a nice player. He was never the best player on his team. He was never an All-star. He was never considered to be among the best of his position in the league. Nice guy, good player, not even close to deserving to have his number retired.
#6 is Walter Berry's jersey. However, I do like Avery, basically.
To add to your points on Silas, his numbers (pts and assists; regular season and playoffs) were going his last couple of years leading up prior to his injury. Once he came back, the knee injury robbed him of some of the quickness explosiveness that made him one of the most feared PGs in the ABA.
Not arguing any of that. Bad knees, menangitis and kidneys did cut short three careers that were very well established. I have no problem with any of the three being in the rafters.
I'll agree with that. He was part of the most successful period of the franchise to that point, even at the time of his jersey retirement, and he lead the league in assists. He also was one steal short of becoming the second player to record a quad double.
And the thing is...Johnny Moore's career basically ended at the age of 28. People compare AJ's stats to his to jock AJ's numbers as retirement worthy, but they don't take that into consideration.
I agree...there's no statistical reason to put AJ up there...and I think people that try to use his numbers to justify him going up there only embarrass themselves.
He is going up there entirely based upon, "face of the franchise" merit, and he has enough friends in high places to pull it off...
Can't stop it.
My issue with him has always been that for a guy going up there based on "face of the franchise" credentials...he sure has a been little since his career here came to an end.
As I said earlier...he's had a much better at ude in recent interviews since getting humiliated in the post season the past couple of years, better at ude about SA and his time with the Spurs...not to mention he doesn't sound like he thinks he's the greatest thing to hite basketball since the hoop.
Not much you can do about it now...and at least his at ude's better. It was really going to piss me off if they retired his jersey while he was still copping that at ude.
I am not sure he deserves it.....
I think he deserves it...but it is quite a turn around from when they were ready to hand #6 over to Ginobili when he first arrived.
Didn't AJ refer to Parker as a boy being sent to do a man's job?
I don't feel that he did enough as a Spur to earn it, and nothing he's done since leaving has changed that.
I won't burn my Spurs fan membership card over this, but it's getting pushed back a bit in my wallet. It's now ahead of my library card but behind the Petsmart Value Card.
Please don't think that I was actually arguing against Silas being in the rafters. I know that neither Silas nor Moore are their strictly based on stats. I am just not understanding how some people quickly dismiss a player in Jr who was a half an assist away from being a double-double guy during the 5 main years of his career. Yes, he did have some scoring studs on his team, but that argument would invalidate half of the Celtics in the HoF because they played with Russell. If he were able to replicate those numbers over another 3-5 years, it's hard to argue that a true PG averaging 12-13 ppg and 10 apg over an 8-10 year period is not rafter worthy. As SenorSpur stated, the illness created the sentimentality factor for the no-brainer.
AJ is the man...
Don't forget, Johnny Moore was perennially, one of league leaders in steals too. Always in the top 3-5.
Speak more to this "at ude" of Avery's. Was there an arrogance? Are you referring to his coaching stint or his post-Spurs playing days or both?
They need to get a little stricter with the jersey retirements. From 1990 on there should only be 4 jerseys retired - Dave, TD, TP, Manu. Possibly Bowen, but that's a stretch from a stats standpoint as Bowen is essential but also a specialist.
If they start retiring everyone with AJ's clout then the Spurs of the future will be wearing NFL lineman numbers. Every number short of 51 will be gone.
aj was mediocre and his number shouldn't be retired. it should never hang in the rafters of the at&t center! i couldn't stand aj when he was on our team and i can't stand him now.
Wow! Pretty explosive stuff. Never heard that. I'm sure he must have been pissed about Pop giving the job to Parker because AJ's boy was Antonio Daniels, whom he was mentoring regularly.
Don't know how AJ could have the audacity to come off like that. I do know that he hates rookies - even now with him coaching the Mavs.
But as a specialist, Bowen has been All-NBA Defensive Team for the last 7 years, the last 4 on First Team. How many times has he finished second or third in DPOY voting? What he lacks in stats he has made up for in peer related recognition. He has not missed a single game during the "3 in 5" run and started every single game in those 5 years. He has also led the league in 3-PT FG%. And for being on a team where he is the 4th or 5th scoring option, he has averaged over 7 ppg. Not spectacular or even remarkable from a scoring perspective, but I will take an ironman, 3-point shooting defensive stopper any day of the week. For this team and its unique makeup, he brings as many non-statistical intangibles to the table as Manu.
And since we are talking a team honor and not HoF, Bowen would need to be considered in the TP/Manu number retirement talk. Consider it a mortal lock if they are able to repeat this year.
If you retire AJ's number you have to retire Bowen's. I would argue that Bowen had as much or more to do with three championships as AJ did with one.
Precisely. Without Bowen's stellar defensive efforts and timely 3-pt shooting, I'm not sure the Spurs win all three les. Duncan is the seminal force by which all success revolves, but he cannot step out on the perimeter and guard the great perimeter players of the past 5 years.
A.J never has the type of impact that even Johnny Moore had on his teams.
Ugh
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