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  1. #51
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    How about you staying on point. Who is your enemy. I
    get sick and tired of your junk. You enjoy putting people
    down who only do one thing and support their country.
    You silly person, they attack us, they want to kill YOU and
    me and you want to make dumb statements about how we
    mistreat them by pouring some water on their face.
    You want torture, how about some real torture. Or as
    the Mexicans say, take them to 110. 110=volts.
    You damn people make me sick.
    This just proves how small minded the pro-torture crowd is -- they don't realize the consequences of these policies going forward. Our treatment of prisoners implies the treatment we will expect and accept for our own servicemen and women if they are taken prisoner.

    So if some North Koreans sieze a US ship in waters they claim to be their own, the pro-torture crowd is completely fine with our men and women being waterboarded by the North Koreans. After all, we would do the same to them, right?

    There is no guarantee that our current enemy will always be our enemy -- but we will have enemies. You just gave our future enemies carte blanche to waterboard our troops with no consequences.

    Congratulations.

  2. #52
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Here's an Associated Press report from Monday that ought to settle the question once and for all:

    Anti-war protesters are hoping a demonstration of waterboarding will convince a Senate committee to reject Attorney General-nominee Michael Mukasey (myoo-KAY'-zee).

    Mukasey has repeatedly refused to say whether he considers the interrogation technique that simulates drowning a form of torture.

    About 25 protesters set up the demonstration outside the Justice Department's headquarters. They poured water over the face of a volunteer as he lay on his back; he was reduced to retching coughs and tears in less than four minutes.
    By the time of this demonstration, Sens. Chuck Schumer and Dianne Feinstein had already announced their support for Mukasey, which means his confirmation was assured. It is preposterous to call this procedure "torture" when people are willing to undergo it merely in order to make a futile political gesture.

    Now, had they driven bamboo shoots under each others fingernails, that might have been different.

  3. #53
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    This just proves how small minded the pro-torture crowd is -- they don't realize the consequences of these policies going forward. Our treatment of prisoners implies the treatment we will expect and accept for our own servicemen and women if they are taken prisoner.

    So if some North Koreans sieze a US ship in waters they claim to be their own, the pro-torture crowd is completely fine with our men and women being waterboarded by the North Koreans. After all, we would do the same to them, right?

    There is no guarantee that our current enemy will always be our enemy -- but we will have enemies. You just gave our future enemies carte blanche to waterboard our troops with no consequences.

    Congratulations.
    We aren't talking Koreans.

    I started to attempt answer your post. But why? Your
    post once again only shows your ignorance of world affairs.

    You have no idea of much of nothing. You are what you
    are silly and uninformed.

  4. #54
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    We aren't talking Koreans.
    We're talking about enemies, present and potential future enemies. You are too small-minded to realize it.

  5. #55
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    We aren't talking Koreans.

    I started to attempt answer your post. But why? Your
    post once again only shows your ignorance of world affairs.

    You have no idea of much of nothing. You are what you
    are silly and uninformed.
    I'll take a stab at it.

    First of all, Korea -- land of the "Aquariums of Pyongyang" -- isn't likely to be guided by -- or much care -- how we treat terrorist detainees before implementing whatever interrogation regimen they wish. , we're still negotiating with China over getting assistance in determining the fates of U. S. Servicemen still missing from the Korean war.

    Second, anyone who would bother to be guided by our interrogation practices probably aren't going to end up on the opposing side of the U.S. Military. In fact, the only people whining about it are those that claim to be our allies.

    Finally, waterboarding Khalid Sheik Mohammed led to the capture of six high value terrorists. Worth the price of admission.

  6. #56
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    First of all, Korea -- land of the "Aquariums of Pyongyang" -- isn't likely to be guided by -- or much care -- how we treat terrorist detainees before implementing whatever interrogation regimen they wish.
    And we will have no way to punish them if they do waterboard our troops, since you said it's fine and dandy.

    Second, anyone who would bother to be guided by our interrogation practices probably aren't going to end up on the opposing side of the U.S. Military.
    That's rich. Not that it matters because you're saying anyone can waterboard our troops with no consequences.

    Finally, waterboarding Khalid Sheik Mohammed led to the capture of six high value terrorists. Worth the price of admission.
    Yes, the price being the waterboarding of our troops from this day forward by anyone with no consequences whatsoever. You've already said you love the idea.

  7. #57
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    This topic is so simple to understand even my dog gets it

    My Dog Talks About Mukasey and Torture

  8. #58
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    This topic is so simple to understand even my dog gets it

    My Dog Talks About Mukasey and Torture
    Well, if it's so simple your dog understands maybe it's just that you're so simple you agree with a dog.

    Cute video. Keep 'em comin'.

  9. #59
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Hey we don't need Mukasey to define torture. We have the
    real expert talking about drowning. Teddy Kennedy. Now if
    there is anyone who should know, he should. I know one of
    his dates does.

  10. #60
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Hey we don't need Mukasey to define torture. We have the
    real expert talking about drowning. Teddy Kennedy. Now if
    there is anyone who should know, he should. I know one of
    his dates does.
    The man is a disgrace.

  11. #61
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    The man is a disgrace.

    I'm sure Chump or GGA will have one of their little
    remarks about, you always bring up Teddy. I didn't this
    time, he did it all by himself.

  12. #62
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    You support the waterboarding of US troops by our future enemies without consequence.

  13. #63
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Welcome to 2004....

    November 9, 2007
    Democrats Surrender on Torture (Brent Budowsky)
    @ 11:26 am
    Mr. Smith has left Washington and Mr. Orwell has arrived.


    First, let’s be crystal-clear about how the Democrats threw a vote they would have won on Michael Mukasey and torture and let’s be clear about why this happened.

    Others and I were privately advocating a filibuster against Mukasey’s attorney general confirmation bid, and would have needed 41 votes to prevail. At a minimum the filibuster could have forced Bush to accept a waterboarding and torture ban as a condition of confirmation.

    Democrats had 40 votes against confirmation last night plus the four presidential candidates who did not vote. Democrats had 43 or 44 “no” votes adding the presidential candidates and, had these senators had the conviction to filibuster, would have won.

    As of Thursday morning the vote would have been taken next week with some talk of delay until December. Once it became apparent that there were 43 to 44 “no” votes if the presidential candidates were present, with the weekend coming to increase pressure, the vote was jammed through late at night, a week ahead of schedule.

    ...............................

    Mr. Smith has left Washington, George Orwell has arrived, and 70 percent of the nation must now consider what to do, with Washington in such overwhelming disrepute directed at both sides of the aisle.
    The Hill

  14. #64
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    What Happened to the Senate’s ‘60-Vote Requirement’?
    by Glenn Greenwald


    Every time Congressional Democrats failed this year to stop the Bush administration (i.e., every time they “tried”), the excuse they gave was that they “need 60 votes in the Senate” in order to get anything done. Each time Senate Republicans blocked Democratic legislation, the media helpfully explained not that Republicans were obstructing via filibuster, but rather that, in the Senate, there is a general “60-vote requirement” for everything.

    How, then, can this be explained?

    The Senate confirmed Michael B. Mukasey as attorney general Thursday night, approving him despite Democratic criticism that he had failed to take an unequivocal stance against the torture of terrorism detainees.
    The 53-to-40 vote made Mr. Mukasey, a former federal judge, the third person to head the Justice Department during the tenure of President Bush . . . Thirty-nine Democrats and one independent opposed him.

    Beyond that, four Senate Democrats running for President missed the vote, and all four had announced they oppose Mukasey’s confirmation. Thus, at least 44 Senators claimed to oppose Mukasey’s confirmation — more than enough to prevent it via filibuster. So why didn’t they filibuster, the way Senate Republicans have on virtually every measure this year which they wanted to defeat?

    Numerous Senate Democrats delivered dramatic speeches from the floor as to why Mukasey’s confirmation would be so devastating to the country. The Washington Post said the “vote came after more than four hours of impassioned floor debate.”

    “Torture should not be what America stands for . . . I do not vote to allow torture,” said Judiciary Committee Chairman Pat Leahy. Russ Feingold said: “we need an attorney general who will tell the president that he cannot ignore the laws passed by Congress. And on that fundamental qualification for this office Judge Mukasey falls short.” Feingold added: “If Judge Mukasey won’t say the simple truth — that this barbaric practice is torture — how can we count on him to stand up to the White House on other issues?”

    Wow — it sounds as though there was really a lot at stake in this vote. So why would 44 Democratic Senators make a flamboyant showing of opposing confirmation without actually doing what they could to prevent it? Is it that a filibuster was not possible because a large number of these Democratic Senators were willing to symbolically oppose confirmation so they could say they did — by casting meaningless votes in opposition knowing that confirmation was guaranteed — but were unwilling to demonstrate the sincerity of their claimed beliefs by acting on them?
    Common dreams

  15. #65
    Damn The Man Mr. Peabody's Avatar
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    I think this opinion should carry some weight....

    Waterboarding is not simulated drowning -- it is drowning

    A former instructor at the school designed to teach U.S. soldiers how to resist torture speaks out against the "terrifying, painful" technique.

    By Malcolm W. Nance


    Nov. 09, 2007 |

    Chairman Conyers and members of the committee.

    My name is Malcolm Wrightson Nance. I am a former member of the U.S. military intelligence community, a retired U.S. Navy Senior Chief Petty Officer. I have served honorably for 20 years.

    While serving my nation, I had the honor to be accepted for duty as an instructor at the U.S. Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) school in North Island Naval Air Station, California. I served in that capacity as an instructor and Master Training Specialist in the Wartime Prisoner-of-War, Peacetime Hostile Government Detainee and Terrorist Hostage survival programs.

    At SERE, one of my most serious responsibilities was to employ, supervise or witness dramatic and highly kinetic coercive interrogation methods, through hands-on, live demonstrations in a simulated captive environment which inoculated our student to the experience of high intensity stress and duress.

    Some of these coercive physical techniques have been identified in the media as Enhanced Interrogation Techniques. The most severe of those employed by SERE was waterboarding.

    Within the four SERE schools and Joint Personnel Recovery community, the waterboard was rightly used as a demonstration tool that revealed to our students the techniques of brutal authoritarian enemies.

    SERE trained tens of thousands of service members of its historical use by the Nazis, the Japanese, North Korea, Iraq, the Soviet Union, the Khmer Rouge and the North Vietnamese.

    SERE emphasized that enemies of democracy and rule of law often ignore human rights, defy the Geneva Convention and have subjected our men and women to grievous physical and psychological harm. We stress that enduring these calumnies will allow our soldiers to return home with honor.

    The SERE community was designed over 50 years ago to show that, as a torture instrument, waterboarding is a terrifying, painful and humiliating tool that leaves no physical scars and which can be repeatedly used as an intimidation tool.

    Waterboarding has the ability to make the subject answer any question with the truth, a half-truth or outright lie in order to stop the procedure. Subjects usually resort to all three, often in rapid sequence. Most media representations or recreations of the waterboarding are inaccurate, amateurish and dangerous improvisations, which do not capture the true intensity of the act. Contrary to popular opinion, it is not a simulation of drowning -- it is drowning.

    In my case, the technique was so fast and professional that I didn’t know what was happening until the water entered my nose and throat. It then pushes down into the trachea and starts the process of respiratory degradation.

    It is an overwhelming experience that induces horror and triggers frantic survival instincts. As the event unfolded, I was fully conscious of what was happening -- I was being tortured.


    Proponents claim that American waterboarding is acceptable because it is done rarely, professionally and only on truly deserving terrorists like 9/11 planner Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Media reporting revealed that tough interrogations were designed to show we had "taken the gloves off."

    It also may have led directly to prisoner abuse and murder in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

    The debate surrounding waterboarding has been lessened to a question of he-said, she-said politics. But I believe that, as some view it as now acceptable, it is symptomatic of a greater problem.

    We must ask ourselves, has America unwittingly relinquished its place as the guardian of human rights and the beacon of justice? Do we now agree that our unique form of justice, based on the concepts of fairness, honor and the unwavering conviction that America is better than its enemies, should no longer govern our intelligence agencies?

    This has now been clearly called into question.

    On the morning of September 11, at the green field next to a burning Pentagon, I was a witness to one of the greatest displays of heroism in our history. American men and women, both military and civilian, repeatedly and selflessly risked their lives to save those around them. At the same time, hundreds of American citizens gave their lives to save thousands in both Washington DC and New York City. It was a painful day for all of us.

    But, does the ultimate goal of protecting America require us to adopt policies that shift our mindset from righteousness and self-defense to covert cruelty?

    Does protecting America "at all costs" mean sacrificing the Cons ution, our laws and the Bill of Rights in order to save it? I do not believe that.

    The attacks of September 11 were horrific, but they did not give us the right to destroy our moral fabric as a nation or to reverse a course that for two hundred years led the world towards democracy, prosperity and guaranteed the rights of billions to live in peace.


    We must return to using our moral compass in the fight against al-Qaida. Had we done so initially we would have had greater success to stanch out terrorist activity and perhaps would have captured Osama bin Laden long ago. Shocking the world by bragging about how professional our brutality was was counter-productive to the fight. There are ways to get the information we need. Perhaps less-kinetic interrogation and indoctrination techniques could have brought more al-Qaida members and active supporters to our side. That edge may be lost forever.

    More importantly, our citizens once believed in the justness of our cause. Now, we are divided. Many have abandoned their belief in the fight because they question the commitment to our own core values. Allied countries, critical to the war against al-Qaida, may not supply us with the assistance we need to bring terrorists to justice. I believe that we must reject the use of the waterboard for prisoners and captives and cleanse this stain from our national honor.

    -- By Malcolm W. Nance

  16. #66
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Dan, have you ever assessed the integrity of articles posted on Common Dreams? I have seen so many in other forums, and can probably count on one hand the number that were not flat out lies.

    Anything from Common Dreams should be thoroughly verified. It’s very seldom worth posting.

    Mr. Peabody, I don't have any firm opinions of water boarding, but I'd like to point out that you can always find someone who will disagree with it and say something worthy of being used for someone’s agenda. I tend to agree it is not torture, but just almost. I'm on the fence on this issue however. It causes no lasting physical effects, but it does seriously play havoc on a persons sanity.

  17. #67
    Damn The Man Mr. Peabody's Avatar
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    Mr. Peabody, I don't have any firm opinions of water boarding, but I'd like to point out that you can always find someone who will disagree with it and say something worthy of being used for someone’s agenda. I tend to agree it is not torture, but just almost. I'm on the fence on this issue however. It causes no lasting physical effects, but it does seriously play havoc on a persons sanity.
    WC, I agree that you can always find people to give the opinion that you want. I just found this opinion from a source that actually has knowledge about the techniques involved, which is more than I can say for many of the other opinions that I have seen.

  18. #68
    Uno, Dos, Tres, Catorce... Ya Vez's Avatar
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    Well all Clinton could do during his 8 years in office was change the name of one of the most notorious clinics on torture training during his administration.. learn a little history will you ... about the school of the america's and it's training of some of south america's bloodiest dictators...

    http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/12/1...cas/index.html

  19. #69
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    It looks like dubya/ head got the under-liar and poltical stooge they wanted.


    http://theboard.blogs.nytimes.com/?hp


    November 15, 2007, 3:55 pm

    Whew! Those National Security Briefings Sure Happen Fast!

    By The Editorial Board

    At his Senate confirmation hearings, Attorney General Michael Mukasey repeatedly refused to answer some of the most important questions because he said he had not yet received top-secret briefings.

    Fast forward to less than one day after he was formally sworn in, and Mr. Mukasey suddenly has a fully formed view of one of the most complex issues before Congress and the American people — the legal issues surrounding government spying on Americans.

    Congress is debating amending the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. That law governs spying on telephone calls, cell phone calls, FAXes, and emails between Americans and people in other countries. After 9/11, President Bush decided he was above the law and authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop without first obtaining the warrant that is very clearly required by the statute.

    Congress is now considering amending FISA to deal with a genuine, technological loophole in the statute. And the administration is trying to use that discussion to give retroactive legal cover to Mr. Bush’s illegal wiretapping, to allow the president to order pretty much whatever spying he wants, and to absolve the telephone companies of legal responsibility for participating in illegal eavesdropping.

    It’s an issue that has absorbed some of the most adept legal minds on Capitol Hill for over a year, requiring many super-secret intelligence briefings and long, arduous committee sessions. But Mr. Mukasey is obviously a much quicker study.


    On his second official day on the job (he had been working for a few days unofficially), he cosigned a letter with Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell warning that a bill sponsored by the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Patrick Leahy, Democrat of Vermont, is a dire threat to national security. Mr. Mukasey said he would recommend that the president veto it if it reaches his desk.

    The Attorney General’s letter listed some dozen provisions that were objectionable, including, of course, the fact that it does not give amnesty to the telephone companies that may have broken the law by turning over data to the government without a warrant.

    Since Mr. Mukasey works at such lightning speed on matters as knotty as FISA modernization, we presume he will act just as swiftly on other, less difficult issues — like finding out whether nine United States attorneys were fired for improper political reasons. And whether his predecessor, Alberto Gonzales, and other top Justice Department officials lied to Congress, or otherwise broke the law, in connection with the scandal.

    Memo to the Democratic Senators who voted for Mr. Mukasey because they believed he was a good and decent man who appreciated the rule of law and would not rush to judgment on important issues: What part of “hoodwinked” don’t you understand?

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