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I agree. Screw the notion of doubleteaming Dirk. Their outside shooters are too dangerous, I think you have to play them straight up - unless you're the Warriors, of course.
True it's a matchup problem but the Spurs can win this game with who they have now.
It'd be a huge stretch to say that Finley lost this game for us but.............................
Finley lost this game for us.
Not really but his shooting and D left us in a pretty big hole.
Bottom Line:The matchup problems the mavs present IS NOT what cost us this game. We don't need to pull an Avery and change our starting lineup to matchup.
We lost this game for 2 reasons, as far as I can tell:
1. This was the WORST defensive effort I have seen from our Spurs. Just absolutely ugly. For a stretch in the 3rd, we picked up the intensity, but by then the mavs were shooting lights out.
2. Tony Parker. This game made it crystal clear that TP is the leader of this team. As he goes, the team goes. For some reason, he had no drive/ focus/run.
\
The offense works right when Tony pushes the ball and gets us into the transition game. The Spurs had absolutely ZERO transition game. The mavs transition D wasn't anything great, so this was the strangest part of the game.
When the Spurs play the mavs you have to realize that Howard/Terry/Dirk will be a problem to slow down. But that wont beat us , as long as we push and play our game.
Tonight, the Spurs didn't play "their" game on offense OR defense.
That = blowout.
I agree. Screw the notion of doubleteaming Dirk. Their outside shooters are too dangerous, I think you have to play them straight up - unless you're the Warriors, of course.
Last edited by SenorSpur; 11-16-2007 at 10:20 AM.
Two things: As I reflect on the game and what some fairly informed Spurs fans are saying, particularly on this one thread, I offer this: Avery DOES put a tremendous amount of emphasis on winning every game, on being sky-high for every game. To him, every game is a playoff game. He is demanding and will scream at you if your effort is less than 200%. If not, Cuban will have his ass up against a wall. The Mavs played that way. They looked (for the entire game) as if this was the Western finals. The coaches on the bench looked it, the players played like it, the fans, the entire atmosphere kept oozing out of my TV 2000 miles away.
Enter the calm and collected Spurs. After all, they are the champions, 4 out of the past 8 years, and 2 of those misses could have gone the other way easily. Of course they are calm and collected! If anyone knew what date and time it was, it was Pop and the Spurs. The contrast was apparent, again, from 2000 miles away. I saw our coaches on the bench, Pop, the players. They were concernerd with how things were going. It was apparent on their faces. But I've seen those same looks each of the past 8 years. Panic was not a part of those looks I saw.
My guess (aka opinion) is that come playoff time, the Mavs will be "spent" with a tank running on less than full. In the NBA of today, playing in May and June with less than a full tank may be enough to continue playing the "wait till next year game, as the Mavs have played for two seasons. They say three's a charm.
We'll see.
Isn't this primarily what the Spurs have spent the last 2 years structuring their team for-- the match-up with Dallas--why they replaced Nazr and Rasho with Elson and Bonner. Doesn't seem to be have been all that effective of a strategy and now they match up poorly with Houston, as well.You gotta hand it to the Mavs because they matchup extremely well against the Spurs. Harris can stay in front of Parker like no one else in the league. Ginobili roams a bit defensively and the Mavs can counter with some deadly outside shooters. Duncan’s one weakness defensively is quickness and the Mavs have Dirk to exploit that weakness.
Is it time to get worried? Absolutely not. However, the Spurs should at least begin strategizing a plan of attack against Dallas. You can’t just bank on them to choke every year for the rest of eternity.
Yawn.....its November.
This is the main thing I noticed and definitely the influence of Avery and Mario (whom I have not seen mentioned) on the Mavs. I was so surprised to see Spurs fans in the game thread and elsewhere griping that the Mavs were getting away with being too physical- that used to be the Spurs calling card.
Pop was yawning last night, too...yup, it's November...Spurs are still 7-2...no worries...
My 10 thoughts after attending last nights game:
1. It's all about the Matchups. The Mavs were constructed in part to beat the Spurs. 2 years ago they reached their goal and they continue to do so still.
2. Speed Kills. Harris has too much speed for Tony Parker. If Harris shot is falling and he continues to dish off well in the lane then Parker is in trouble.
3. Josh Howard has developed his all around game and the Spurs don't have an answer for him.
4. Dirk has learned that when teams run a 2nd defender at him to pass the ball quickly. Then the next pass is the killer because it will likely be to an open player like Jet or Stack. If they are on then it's tough to stop.
5. Ginobli is a terrific all around player. Dallas had no real answer for him. If not for him the Spurs would have lost by 25. He or Terry will win 6th man.
6. The Spurs fans that surrounded me at the game last night were great. They wore their Spurs Jersey's and cheered hard. They did not curse, they did not act a fool. And in the end they accepted defeat without excuses. They were good fans adn i respect that!
7. The Spurs can no longer ignore the fact that the Mavs have their number. Some will say Regular Season don't mean crap. Well you are wrong. 5 out of the last 6 regular season games have been won by the Mavs plus 1 playoff series. The Spurs will learn just as the Mavs did with Golden St. If you lose to them 75% of the time in the regular season, chances are you are not going to beat them in the Post Season. We lost 5 of six to GSW and the Spurs have lost 5 of the last 6 regular season games now. It is more than just a "fluke" it is a viable trend.
8. You guys should probably play Barry more and Finley less. Fin sucked his last 2 years in Dallas and he sux more now.
9. Pop vs. Avery is one of a chess match.
10. The Spurs don't want to see the Mavs in the Post season just as the Mavs don't want to see Golden St. But as a Fan, the Mavs vs. Spurs is by far the best rivalry and best game the NBA has to offer. I hope the 2 teams can play for the WCF's. It's a shame they can't play against each other in the Finals.
What is false? That May of 2006 wasn't three years ago? Three years ago Barry had never even faced the Mavs as a member of the Spurs.
Barry started multiple games in that series, including Game 4 in which he played 38 minutes.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=260515006
Or are you going to argue that those 38 minutes weren't important minutes?
You usually are in some fantasy world when it comes to Barry but this is a new low for you. Even last year, Barry averaged over 20 minutes per game against the Mavericks.
Worthless minutes...because that series was lopsided as , within the course of a game...the sooner you realize not all minutes are equal, the sooner you'll stop jocking moves and players that won't win us a le.
I guess Manu doesn't know what's going on either...since he said Barry was doing it. And I quoted him...
So now not only does Barry only play point guard when whottt watches games, Barry also hasn't ever played an important minute against the Mavs in his Spurs career.
Manu>timvp
You and I didn't watch the same game. The Spurs were certainly flat and lethargic, but the Mavs did not treat this as Game 7 of the Conference Finals. Their mantra since training camp has been all about pacing themselves and peaking at the right time.
And I like how Pop must certainly be holding something back, but Avery is pulling out all the stops. They were simply sharper and hit their shots. And I like the "fans and entire atmosphere oozed it" line. Did you not catch all those empty seats in the lower bowl?
yeah, like what happened with the Cavs right? because everyone knows they beat us during regular season and that meant trouble for the Spurs...
I don't understand where the Mav fans get they own the Spurs during the playoffs. The Mavs were one idiotic foul from being eliminated! You didn't own that series, you survived it. Well deserved, but don't come here acting as if you have the Spurs playoff number because thats bull
I generally agree with you although I thought TD played harder today than how you saw it (maybe not 5th gear but at least the 3rd gear).-Tim Duncan was in preseason mode for the most part. I only saw complete effort out of him for a short span in the fourth quarter. Other than those couple minutes, he wasn’t giving it is all. And honestly, this isn’t the time to be killing yourself to get a November win. That said, if Duncan has five gears, it’d be nice for him to play at second gear instead of at first when facing other good teams.
-Manu Ginobili was the brightest spot for the Spurs. He had some turnovers early when everyone was turning it over and his defense wasn’t as good as it has been lately but you really can’t complain about his effort or production. 25 points, nine rebounds, seven assists and three steals are numbers from Ginobili that should lead to a win from the Spurs. He just didn’t have enough help tonight.
-I’m not sure what was wrong with Tony Parker. Either he was tired, sick, injured or he just wasn’t there mentally. You have to give the Mavs some credit because they defended him well but there’s really no excuse for having a 1-for-11 game. If Parker brings his B game, the Spurs probably find a way to win. Parker did have eight assists to go with only one turnover, but this highlights how important his scoring is for this team. Parker can rack up the assists but his most valuable asset to this team is the easy points he provides. Without those easy points, the offense doesn’t have enough weapons to keep up on a night when the defense is poor.
-This was Bruce Bowen's first off night defensively. He got beat a couple times by Josh Howard and just wasn't as crisp as you'd like him to be on that end of the court. Bowen also battled foul trouble, which didn't help matters at all. Bowen had probably his first game of the season where he didn't make any impact at all.
-Fabricio Oberto was at least awake for this game. The Argentine Robert Horry realized it was a big game and brought his energy. However, it is becoming apparent that he’s not a player you can put on Dirk Nowitzki. He’s not mobile enough and just doesn’t have defensive instincts on the perimeter. He’ll give his all against Nowitzki but the Spurs need to find a better option.
-It might be time to put Michael Finley in the freezer and test out some other options. His offense is horrid right now and his defense is average, at very best. Finley throwing up a 0-for-6 outing was a deceptively big part of the Spurs falling into the hole that they did. You can’t play with an offensive and defensive liability on your team and beat a good opponent.
-In Francisco Elson’s first game with the Spurs that happened to be against the Mavs, he looked exactly like what the Spurs needed to play against Dallas. Since then, Elson hasn’t been able to recapture that magic. He was in the game for 17 mostly invisible minutes. He had a nice jumper . . . and that’s about it.
-Brent Barry earned more playing time tonight. If Finley is going to continue to shoot like trash, might as well elevate Barry to the starting lineup. Barry’s three-point shooting got the Spurs back into the game. He came out firing and played with a purpose. Nice way to shake off an injury.
-Matt Bonner was frustrating. He’d have some very good plays and then he’d have some horrible plays. His energy and outside shooting helped the Spurs cut into the lead, but then he’d do something that’d negate his positives. The Spurs need a more consistent effort from Bonner game to game and possession to possession, or else Robert Horry is going to make him obsolete again this year.
-I won’t lie and pretend I didn’t groan when I saw Jacque Vaughn enter the contest. I wasn’t sure about how smart it was to bring someone off the injured list and straight into a contest against the Mavs. But truthfully, Vaughn played pretty good. He was one of the few players that wasn’t responsible for this loss in the least.
-Ime Udoka is suffering from First-Season-On-The-Spurs Blues. He had three really good looks at the basket and missed all three shots. It was pretty interesting to note that Pop called a play out of a timeout for Udoka to post up. That was either a gutsy call by Pop or it illustrated exactly how much Pop didn’t care about losing the game
-Pop was probably the happiest person in the building tonight. Pop loves early season losses and this loss, in Pop’s eyes, will give the Spurs something to build on. If the Spurs win this game, Pop has to figure out another way to get the attention of the team. With the loss, Pop can get on the team more and demand even more total team commitment to improving.
-Overall, not the way you want to play against the Dallas Mavericks but the season is still early. If the Spurs laid this type of egg in any month other than November, I might give it a second though. This early? The Mavs can have that game.
That said, the Mavs appear to be the matchup they’ve been for the Spurs the last couple years. I didn’t see any improvement at all in terms of finding ways to slow down Dirk Nowitzki, Josh Howard, Jason Terry and Devin Harris. Those guys ran wild and the Spurs had no answer defensively at all.
Was Pop concealing some of his cards? Most likely but I don’t know who is going to guard Nowitzki when it matters. Oberto and Elson aren’t agile enough. Bowen isn’t strong enough. Finley? God no. Maybe Udoka but that’s putting a lot of pressure on the team’s current 11th man to develop.
You gotta hand it to the Mavs because they matchup extremely well against the Spurs. Harris can stay in front of Parker like no one else in the league. Ginobili roams a bit defensively and the Mavs can counter with some deadly outside shooters. Duncan’s one weakness defensively is quickness and the Mavs have Dirk to exploit that weakness.
Is it time to get worried? Absolutely not. However, the Spurs should at least begin strategizing a plan of attack against Dallas. You can’t just bank on them to choke every year for the rest of eternity.
Or at least not before they play the Spurs in the playoffs.
Here is how I saw the game. Josh and Devin really killed us tonight, not Nowitzki. Neither Bowen nor Parker could stay in front of Josh/Devin's penetration nor jumpers. And I thought TP was intimidated very early on by Diop/Dampier as he stopped trying to penetrate. Devin's defence on TP was also very critical as he harrassed TP into turnovers and aimless dribbling around.
On the positive note, I thought Bonner actually played Nowitzki quite well (you are right that Oberto is not the answer for Dirk). I also thought Elson played some very good defence on Dirk on couple of one-on-one matchups and I believe on one sequence, he was quick enough to strip the ball away from Dirk resulting in a turnover and a foul from Dirk as he dove to try to get the ball back as it rolled to Manu. I really thought Pop should have had Elson on Dirk lot more during the game so that we didn't have to constantly double up on Dirk, freeing up Jet and Josh for easy looks/jumpers.
Manu was also very effective and aggressive even if he had some untimely turnovers but at least he didn't quit nor stop competing like Parker.
I think it's games like this when the Spurs are not playing well and PG isn't making things happen that Duncan has to demand the ball and become much more aggressive in the low-post. He did that a few times and certainly got lot more touches/shots than recently but he probably should have taken 30 shots last night to try to get their bigs in foul trouble and also to collapse their defence for our 3 pt. shooters. Basically against a team like the Mavs, if TD isn't aggressive in the paint, we are going to have problems as they are too tough to penetrate by our perimeter players on a regular basis.
PULEEZE stop your in about Bonner. He is the ONLY Spur that was not a gross embarrassment last night. The Spurs overall sucked a big one and looked like a junior high school team.-Tim Duncan was in preseason mode for the most part. I only saw complete effort out of him for a short span in the fourth quarter. Other than those couple minutes, he wasn’t giving it is all. And honestly, this isn’t the time to be killing yourself to get a November win. That said, if Duncan has five gears, it’d be nice for him to play at second gear instead of at first when facing other good teams.
-Manu Ginobili was the brightest spot for the Spurs. He had some turnovers early when everyone was turning it over and his defense wasn’t as good as it has been lately but you really can’t complain about his effort or production. 25 points, nine rebounds, seven assists and three steals are numbers from Ginobili that should lead to a win from the Spurs. He just didn’t have enough help tonight.
-I’m not sure what was wrong with Tony Parker. Either he was tired, sick, injured or he just wasn’t there mentally. You have to give the Mavs some credit because they defended him well but there’s really no excuse for having a 1-for-11 game. If Parker brings his B game, the Spurs probably find a way to win. Parker did have eight assists to go with only one turnover, but this highlights how important his scoring is for this team. Parker can rack up the assists but his most valuable asset to this team is the easy points he provides. Without those easy points, the offense doesn’t have enough weapons to keep up on a night when the defense is poor.
-This was Bruce Bowen's first off night defensively. He got beat a couple times by Josh Howard and just wasn't as crisp as you'd like him to be on that end of the court. Bowen also battled foul trouble, which didn't help matters at all. Bowen had probably his first game of the season where he didn't make any impact at all.
-Fabricio Oberto was at least awake for this game. The Argentine Robert Horry realized it was a big game and brought his energy. However, it is becoming apparent that he’s not a player you can put on Dirk Nowitzki. He’s not mobile enough and just doesn’t have defensive instincts on the perimeter. He’ll give his all against Nowitzki but the Spurs need to find a better option.
-It might be time to put Michael Finley in the freezer and test out some other options. His offense is horrid right now and his defense is average, at very best. Finley throwing up a 0-for-6 outing was a deceptively big part of the Spurs falling into the hole that they did. You can’t play with an offensive and defensive liability on your team and beat a good opponent.
-In Francisco Elson’s first game with the Spurs that happened to be against the Mavs, he looked exactly like what the Spurs needed to play against Dallas. Since then, Elson hasn’t been able to recapture that magic. He was in the game for 17 mostly invisible minutes. He had a nice jumper . . . and that’s about it.
-Brent Barry earned more playing time tonight. If Finley is going to continue to shoot like trash, might as well elevate Barry to the starting lineup. Barry’s three-point shooting got the Spurs back into the game. He came out firing and played with a purpose. Nice way to shake off an injury.
-Matt Bonner was frustrating. He’d have some very good plays and then he’d have some horrible plays. His energy and outside shooting helped the Spurs cut into the lead, but then he’d do something that’d negate his positives. The Spurs need a more consistent effort from Bonner game to game and possession to possession, or else Robert Horry is going to make him obsolete again this year.
-I won’t lie and pretend I didn’t groan when I saw Jacque Vaughn enter the contest. I wasn’t sure about how smart it was to bring someone off the injured list and straight into a contest against the Mavs. But truthfully, Vaughn played pretty good. He was one of the few players that wasn’t responsible for this loss in the least.
-Ime Udoka is suffering from First-Season-On-The-Spurs Blues. He had three really good looks at the basket and missed all three shots. It was pretty interesting to note that Pop called a play out of a timeout for Udoka to post up. That was either a gutsy call by Pop or it illustrated exactly how much Pop didn’t care about losing the game
-Pop was probably the happiest person in the building tonight. Pop loves early season losses and this loss, in Pop’s eyes, will give the Spurs something to build on. If the Spurs win this game, Pop has to figure out another way to get the attention of the team. With the loss, Pop can get on the team more and demand even more total team commitment to improving.
-Overall, not the way you want to play against the Dallas Mavericks but the season is still early. If the Spurs laid this type of egg in any month other than November, I might give it a second though. This early? The Mavs can have that game.
That said, the Mavs appear to be the matchup they’ve been for the Spurs the last couple years. I didn’t see any improvement at all in terms of finding ways to slow down Dirk Nowitzki, Josh Howard, Jason Terry and Devin Harris. Those guys ran wild and the Spurs had no answer defensively at all.
Was Pop concealing some of his cards? Most likely but I don’t know who is going to guard Nowitzki when it matters. Oberto and Elson aren’t agile enough. Bowen isn’t strong enough. Finley? God no. Maybe Udoka but that’s putting a lot of pressure on the team’s current 11th man to develop.
You gotta hand it to the Mavs because they matchup extremely well against the Spurs. Harris can stay in front of Parker like no one else in the league. Ginobili roams a bit defensively and the Mavs can counter with some deadly outside shooters. Duncan’s one weakness defensively is quickness and the Mavs have Dirk to exploit that weakness.
Is it time to get worried? Absolutely not. However, the Spurs should at least begin strategizing a plan of attack against Dallas. You can’t just bank on them to choke every year for the rest of eternity.
Or at least not before they play the Spurs in the playoffs.
I agree they were calling lot of ticky tack fouls on Spurs (although i have to day Mavs were definitely the aggressors, the margin of fouls was ridiculous) and Mavs were hacking and chopping & kicking without getting fouls called against them. There was one sequence where TP shot the ball and basically got hammered in the chops and fell down, TD grabbed the rebound off the rim i think and put it back in while also getting chopped down. TWO fouls and NO CALLS! very blatant as well. I simply don't understand how the refs can miss such obvious hack fouls when you have two spurs going down as they are trying to make a basket in the paint.
my thing is, if its a november game and we're going to sit our best guys down 12 with 3:30 left, then why not experiment more? why not try udoka and bowen together, washington on harris, playing dirk straight up, etc etc etc. it seemed like pop wanted to win, then backed off at the end.
i'm not one of the "sky is falling" types, and i think it was mainly a problem of us not playing our usual D, but i just dont understand what pop was looking for this game.
if dirk does go for 60 pts on 80% shooting, i fail to see how that is worse than letting them get hot from 3 and better position for offensive boards.
also, i think one of the keys for us to beat dallas is to get their bigs in foul trouble. there were plenty of times the refs swallowed their whistles last night, but we need the big 3, and oberto too, to just pound the ball inside and get diop and damp in foul trouble. those two are dumb, foul prone players and with them out we can win the rebounding and defense battle, which is the most important thing.
you didn't watch the game did you?
Quit whining about the ing calls. I noticed several times when Duncan grabbed Diop's hand when going for a rebound and pulled him back, and at least 4 or 5 obvious travels each on Manu and Parker.
VERY VERY good post. I also believe that Elson should be on Dirk all the time. He is quick enough. He just has to become more active with his hands (like Bowen ScissorsHand) and he can harass Dirk. I also think Elson can take Dirk one on one and beat him off the dribble!! I saw Elson whip by Dirk with a dribble penetration (literally ran right aorund Dirk) and go to the hoop (unfortunately he missed but that is a play they should try to use more -- isolation of Elson against Dirk).
Udoka also needs to get more playing time....especially against a team like Mavs to try to contain Josh and Stackhouse and Terry. These guys are too strong and fast for Finley, Barry or even Bowen and we want to save Manu for offence, not waste all his energy chasing after these perimeter sharp shooters.
I also thought Bonner was very active and brought lot of energy and did a decent job of harrassing Dirk.
Darius probably should have been given more playing time as TP was basically totally frustrated and stopped competing on both ends. I sincerely hope he does not wilt like this in key games. He seems to great in blowouts or against weaker teams but seem to dissappear or play poorly against the better teams like Mavs. Harris is a big matchup problem. I am not sure TP can guard Harris. Harris is actually faster than TP and taller/stronger with longer arms and he really exposed TP's weak defence.
Did you notice Parker taking an elbow to the throat....
I've got no problem if they don't call fouls...as long as they call it the same way for both teams. They let the Mavs hack and blew the whistle on the Spurs.
Mavs are not a better defensive team than the Spurs, not now, not ever....the fact that the Spurs all of a sudden become a bunch of foul prone bags and the Mavs turn into the Spurs defensively....is definitely ref induced.
Just call it the same way for both teams...
Spurs were getting kicked in the balls and elbowed in the throat, hacked on the dribble...not a whistle was blown....if the Spurs even looked crossways at the Mavs it was a foul.
Fans of teams run by Mark Cuban...the biggest ref whiner in NBA history..do not have jack room to ever call out anyone else ing about bad calls.
Your owner(no not Don Nelson) has devoted his entire tenure as owner to doing just that.
That makes you...a huge for even thinking you can call out anyone else for complaining.
Don't sit here and think you can be some kind of macho fan who never es about calls and can look down on those who do...if you were that kind of fan...you wouldn't be a Mav fan in the first place.
FO.
And they let whomever was guarding Dirk to try and crawl inside him like he was a tauntaun carcass.They let the Mavs hack and blew the whistle on the Spurs.
Agreed.Just call it the same way for both team...
Guilt by Association. Nice Logic.Fans of teams run by Mark Cuban...the biggest ref whiner in NBA history..do not have jack room to ever call out anyone else ing about bad calls.
That's right you stupid ...because unless I first see you with a bigass tatoo on your forehead saying Mark Cuban is a disgusting ref whining , as a qualifying statement before any other words exit from that ing gashole you call a mouth...I am going to assume you are hypocritical POS without an ounce of credibility...just spewing more gas. A big ole fart...if you will.
My thoughts exactly. We have to give the Mavs the Suns's treatment. Let Amare get his, and worry about the others.
We have to deny Dallas role players, let Dirk have his.
It surprises me Pop hasn't tried that yet.
They've made wonderful advances when it comes to treating Tourette's. You make spurscenter look like he's zonked out on Xanax.
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