Australia has a new government

[Shelly]

Whottt

Of the 3 examples you gave

- Citizens of all 3 countries have a higher life expectancy than in the US.

- GDP growth is better in 2 of them while the 3rd one is close by.

- GDP per capita in Norway is actually higher than in the US (and as you probably know the US' is pretty damn high).

Source: CIA Factbook.

Why the did you have to name 2 succesful Scandinavian countries as examples when everybody who has ever been there knows they have one of the best social/medical systems in the world. And as someone who has lived 12 years in France (as a foreigner I might add) I can tell you their doctors and hospitals are pretty damn good.

Top medical ins utions in the US are in did top notch (in some fields even the best in the world), but sadly the number of US citizens that can afford their services is getting smaller. And while the "free" medical care is not as plush or sophisticated as in the US private sector it is available to all and actually performs many procedures just as well without requiring second mortgages from those who need them.
If you're so rich that you just have to have the absolute best - well good for you and you can! There's plenty of private clinics in all of the European countries that will gladly take your money and offer top notch (compared to the best US ins utions) services and luxury.

As a rich person you have the luxury of choice - in the US or in Europe. Middle class people don't. So why take away a decent affordable medical system as well?

Whottt????

[Slomo]

I'm sure you realize that the income tax rate of both Scandinavian countries mentioned is greater than 50%. You can't directly correlate life expectancy to quality of health care. The GDP of those countries will not continue to climb.

It has and it will. This claim has been getting old for a long time now.

You do realize that the only person who has overtaken Bill Gates as the richest man alive in the past 5 years was a guy from Sweden? The economic growth of the whole region has been pretty good for a long time now.

You can however correlate life expectancy to quality of life (of which medical care is a pretty big part).

Yes, the taxes are high, nobody is disputing it. But as a system that has been put in place democratically it works just as well or sometimes better than the US system - that's all.

I know this notion scares the out of some people and I'm not saying you have to change yours - just don't make crazy claims how it's the only one that works.

[CuckingFunt]

Don't even ing get me started on medical insurance and/or policies.

I am exactly the kind of person who all insurance companies would love -- a ridiculously healthy 20-something female in great shape who never goes to the hospital and would be willing to pay excessive fees for services I'd never use -- but haven't been able to get insurance on my own, ever, because I've got asthma. I've been treating my one medical condition for years with unhealthy over-the-counter medicines (my favorite of which is probably not too far from being banned completely because it's an aerosol) because no one will insure me. The whole thing is ing insane.

And, without insurance, I pray that I continue to stay healthy. One accident/condition would bankrupt me.

[peewee's lovechild]

Don't even ing get me started on medical insurance and/or policies.

I am exactly the kind of person who all insurance companies would love -- a ridiculously healthy 20-something female in great shape who never goes to the hospital and would be willing to pay excessive fees for services I'd never use -- but haven't been able to get insurance on my own, ever, because I've got asthma. I've been treating my one medical condition for years with unhealthy over-the-counter medicines (my favorite of which is probably not too far from being banned completely because it's an aerosol) because no one will insure me. The whole thing is ing insane.

And, without insurance, I pray that I continue to stay healthy. One accident/condition would bankrupt me.

I've been bankrupted because of my ashthma. I've been doing good for the past few months, but now I have this bulging disk that requires surgery.

That's going to cost me about $4,000.

The medical field is a racket in this country.

[xrayzebra]

I'm glad that such an intelligent individual as yourself thinks that the U.S. is immune to bad hospitals.

I bow to your intelligence.

You were talking about getting shot in Mexico.......not
hospitals. Oh, forget it. I wished sometimes people
would read what they posted.

[peewee's lovechild]

You were talking about getting shot in Mexico.......not
hospitals. Oh, forget it. I wished sometimes people
would read what they posted.

And, I was just being sarcastic about your previous post.

Oh, forget it.

I wish sometimes people would read what they posted.

[tlongII]

It has and it will. This claim has been getting old for a long time now.

You do realize that the only person who has overtaken Bill Gates as the richest man alive in the past 5 years was a guy from Sweden? The economic growth of the whole region has been pretty good for a long time now.

You can however correlate life expectancy to quality of life (of which medical care is a pretty big part).

Yes, the taxes are high, nobody is disputing it. But as a system that has been put in place democratically it works just as well or sometimes better than the US system - that's all.

I know this notion scares the out of some people and I'm not saying you have to change yours - just don't make crazy claims how it's the only one that works.

Life expectancy is not greater there than in the US because of the medical care. I believe you know that.

GDP will not continue to grow at anywhere near their current rate in those countries either. I will try to remember to revisit this thread in 2 years time so I can say "I told you so!"

[Slomo]

Life expectancy is not greater there than in the US because of the medical care. I believe you know that.

You can however correlate life expectancy to quality of life (of which medical care is a pretty big part)

As I said before not the only factor but a big part non the less.

GDP will not continue to grow at anywhere near their current rate in those countries either. I will try to remember to revisit this thread in 2 years time so I can say "I told you so!"

We both stated opinions, we'll see in a few years. Just to clarify what my crystal ball is telling me in rgds to the future growth rate of the 3 examples:
France: You're probably right
Sweden: Possible, but will be at least in step with other strong economies (US, UK and similar).
Norway has the potential to pwn us all (oil industry).
The Scandinavian region should be doing quite well as a whole because of telecommunications and oil.

Of course if I was never wrong on this subjects I'd be giving my pal Bill Gates a run for his money instead of trying to win this argument against you

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

tlong - I know you didn't mean "communist", and you are talking nonsense. Australia has had public health care, public tertiary education, and a very basic welfare safety net for about 30 years and we are getting it pretty right. Public health needs more money, but anyone can get a degree (you borrow the money from the govt. and pay back + inflation - ie. no cost loan), we have record low unemployment, very low government debt and have been running surpluses for years, and our economy has never been healthier. Obviously you despair for the cost of providing a safety net for the poor, but our economy is running beautifully and we don't have homeless people everywhere as I have experienced overseas (US, UK especially). I say again, we've had this safety net for 30 years, so what's failing again?

Also, tlong, the state of the Scandanavian economies you refer to, and the Australian economy, is largely dependent upon the strength of the "global" economy, which basically equates to American consumer demand. When you go into recession because of the financial market mismanagement that led to the credit bubble, that will reduce your demand for imports from the booming Chinese, which will reduce demand for primary products, which will hurt the world, etc. Most of the planet will be in recession soon after the US through no fault of those country's governments.

Slomo and DarkReign, thank you for speaking the truth and trying to set the neo-cons straight.

[tlongII]

tlong - I know you didn't mean "communist", and you are talking nonsense. Australia has had public health care, public tertiary education, and a very basic welfare safety net for about 30 years and we are getting it pretty right. Public health needs more money, but anyone can get a degree (you borrow the money from the govt. and pay back + inflation - ie. no cost loan), we have record low unemployment, very low government debt and have been running surpluses for years, and our economy has never been healthier. Obviously you despair for the cost of providing a safety net for the poor, but our economy is running beautifully and we don't have homeless people everywhere as I have experienced overseas (US, UK especially). I say again, we've had this safety net for 30 years, so what's failing again?

Also, tlong, the state of the Scandanavian economies you refer to, and the Australian economy, is largely dependent upon the strength of the "global" economy, which basically equates to American consumer demand. When you go into recession because of the financial market mismanagement that led to the credit bubble, that will reduce your demand for imports from the booming Chinese, which will reduce demand for primary products, which will hurt the world, etc. Most of the planet will be in recession soon after the US through no fault of those country's governments.

Slomo and DarkReign, thank you for speaking the truth and trying to set the neo-cons straight.

You also have a 47% income tax rate. Nice.

[peewee's lovechild]

....God help us.

It's funny because that's what people used to say about Bill Clinton becoming President. Eight years of prosperity is a good thing.

Those same people also claimed that Dubya was going to be some sort of savior. It's all very funny now.

[DarkReign]

It's funny because that's what people used to say about Bill Clinton becoming President. Eight years of prosperity is a good thing.

Those same people also claimed that Dubya was going to be some sort of savior. It's all very funny now.

Hillary would be nothing short of an economic and cons utional nightmare.

Whomever is the next President, regardless of political affiliation, is going to preside over the steepest American decline since the depression (maybe worse, we'll see).

It doesnt matter what financial policies you pass thru, or what band-aid bull the American people will swallow up as long as Dancing with the Stars continues to air.

The end of American hegemony isnt 50 years or even 20 years from now, its less than 10 (thats being conservative). This government cannot run continuously and endlessly keeping ths status quo, which is exactly what Bush/Clinton are.

The same tired names being dragged into the same tired arena preaching the same tired rhetoric. I mean, I understand Americans throughly enjoy the wonders of television syndication, but I had thought our tolerance for re-runs would be much less in the real world. Silly me.

If youre a Democrat, you better hope a Republican wins the election so you have someone to blame.
If youre a Republican, you better hope a Democrat wins so you have someone to blame.

If youre neither, then you just better hope because we have no one to blame but ourselves.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

You also have a 47% income tax rate. Nice.

Um, no. You should do your research.

$1 – $6,000 Nil
$6,001 – $30,000 - 15c for each $1 over $6,000
$30,001 – $75,000 - $3,600 plus 30c for each $1 over $30,000
$75,001 – $150,000 - $17,100 plus 40c for each $1 over $75,000
$150,001 and over - $47,100 plus 45c for each $1 over $150,000

So, if you earn up to $75K (ie. most of the population) your marginal rate is 30c.

And those earning over 150K can't afford a marginal (note, you pay about 30c on average up to 150K) tax rate of 45c? And we have no State taxes.

You should check out the Gini coefficient for America, 3rd highest in the developed world (Hong Kong and Singapore are higher):

http://www.sustainablemiddleclass.co...efficient.html

No wonder there are so many homeless people - the rich keep getting richer in relation to everyone else, and there's no safety net for those at the bottom to get them off the streets and put a meal in their stomach. I'll take our way of doing things, thanks.

[tlongII]

Um, no. You should do your research.

$1 – $6,000 Nil
$6,001 – $30,000 - 15c for each $1 over $6,000
$30,001 – $75,000 - $3,600 plus 30c for each $1 over $30,000
$75,001 – $150,000 - $17,100 plus 40c for each $1 over $75,000
$150,001 and over - $47,100 plus 45c for each $1 over $150,000

So, if you earn up to $75K (ie. most of the population) your marginal rate is 30c.

And those earning over 150K can't afford a marginal (note, you pay about 30c on average up to 150K) tax rate of 45c? And we have no State taxes.

You should check out the Gini coefficient for America, 3rd highest in the developed world (Hong Kong and Singapore are higher):

http://www.sustainablemiddleclass.co...efficient.html

No wonder there are so many homeless people - the rich keep getting richer in relation to everyone else, and there's no safety net for those at the bottom to get them off the streets and put a meal in their stomach. I'll take our way of doing things, thanks.

Interesting. I got my information from the following site...
http://www.worldwide-tax.com/

I guess when you spend nothing on defense it makes sense.

Social safety nets rob the populace of the incentive to excel. I'll take our way of doing things, thanks.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Interesting. I got my information from the following site...
http://www.worldwide-tax.com/

I guess when you spend nothing on defense it makes sense.

Social safety nets rob the populace of the incentive to excel. I'll take our way of doing things, thanks.

That is UTTER BULL ! The dole, as we call it, is barely enough to live on and difficult to get - you have to fill in a job interview diary, etc. Being on the dole is no fun. Sure, if you overpaid people to do nothing they would, but it's not cushy, it's a SAFETY NET, enough to put a roof over your head and eat, not much more (about $200/wk). The vast majority of people do not want to live on the poverty line, so they work.

In fact, Australia is suffering capacity constraints in most sectors because we have record low unemployment - we can't get enough people. That blows your theory out of the water.

As for spending nothing on defence, where do you get that from? We have nearly 2000 people in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we just bought $500mil of tanks we don't need from the US. We are also part of the joint strike fighter multinational conglomerate, and basically the policeman of the Pacific. We spent $16bil on defence last year, and will spend more next year:

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=54967

Nothing personal, but please just admit that you know nothing about my country and move on. You've been wrong about everything so far.

As for the tax info, I went to the Australian Tax Office site, why didn't you?

http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/co...u=5053&mfp=001

[Jonah]

Pucking stupid idea miss

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Is that an MI21 or excoriate troll I see? Nah, of course it's TDMVPODTPMVP!

[TDMVPDPOY]

Is that an MI21 or excoriate troll I see? Nah, of course it's TDMVPODTPMVP!

WTF

man i just sign up for the dole a couple of days ago after graduating about 6 months ago, couldnt be fckd gettin out of house to go get welfare.....so im down to my last 140 bucks......was going to spend it on the spurs dvd package...now might need it for other stuff...

[tlongII]

That is UTTER BULL ! The dole, as we call it, is barely enough to live on and difficult to get - you have to fill in a job interview diary, etc. Being on the dole is no fun. Sure, if you overpaid people to do nothing they would, but it's not cushy, it's a SAFETY NET, enough to put a roof over your head and eat, not much more (about $200/wk). The vast majority of people do not want to live on the poverty line, so they work.

In fact, Australia is suffering capacity constraints in most sectors because we have record low unemployment - we can't get enough people. That blows your theory out of the water.

As for spending nothing on defence, where do you get that from? We have nearly 2000 people in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we just bought $500mil of tanks we don't need from the US. We are also part of the joint strike fighter multinational conglomerate, and basically the policeman of the Pacific. We spent $16bil on defence last year, and will spend more next year:

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=54967

Nothing personal, but please just admit that you know nothing about my country and move on. You've been wrong about everything so far.

As for the tax info, I went to the Australian Tax Office site, why didn't you?

http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/co...u=5053&mfp=001

Horse . The GDP per capita of Australia is nearly 20% less than that of the USA. If you have the capacity constraints you have mentioned why do you think that is? It's because the incentive to excel doesn't exist there as it does here in the USA.

[peewee's lovechild]

U-S-A, U-S-A, U-S-A, U-S-A . . .

[DarkReign]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq2_YKQGE_U

[peewee's lovechild]

Captain America will kill every socialist, comunist, facist and terrorist in the world.

America is safe.

[peewee's lovechild]

That is, until he dies of a heart attack because he couldn't afford preventive health care.

[xrayzebra]

Whottt



Why the did you have to name 2 succesful Scandinavian countries as examples when everybody who has ever been there knows they have one of the best social/medical systems in the world. And as someone who has lived 12 years in France (as a foreigner I might add) I can tell you their doctors and hospitals are pretty damn good.

Di will be glad to know YOU got good medical care.
She had a small problem.

[xrayzebra]

tlong - I know you didn't mean "communist", and you are talking nonsense. Australia has had public health care, public tertiary education, and a very basic welfare safety net for about 30 years and we are getting it pretty right. Public health needs more money, but anyone can get a degree (you borrow the money from the govt. and pay back + inflation - ie. no cost loan), we have record low unemployment, very low government debt and have been running surpluses for years, and our economy has never been healthier. Obviously you despair for the cost of providing a safety net for the poor, but our economy is running beautifully and we don't have homeless people everywhere as I have experienced overseas (US, UK especially). I say again, we've had this safety net for 30 years, so what's failing again?

Also, tlong, the state of the Scandanavian economies you refer to, and the Australian economy, is largely dependent upon the strength of the "global" economy, which basically equates to American consumer demand. When you go into recession because of the financial market mismanagement that led to the credit bubble, that will reduce your demand for imports from the booming Chinese, which will reduce demand for primary products, which will hurt the world, etc. Most of the planet will be in recession soon after the US through no fault of those country's governments.

Slomo and DarkReign, thank you for speaking the truth and trying to set the neo-cons straight.

You say you have been running surpluses for years and
then say you have low government debt. What did I
miss?