Game Thoughts: Spurs @ Lakers - Dec. 13

[SpurOutofTownFan]

[/B]

I disagree. The offense was stagnant with him in. Little to none moving the ball around. More often than not, it was "Watch Jacque dribble.....dribbble....dribble some more, and then pull up for a brick"......

Yeah, he showed why his is a backup. And a backup that should not spend much time trying to run the team. Especially when the team is minus two of it's main players.

I would have liked to seen Washington play a lot more last night. Sure, he will make some mistakes. But at least he has the energy and hustle that everyone seems to like about Vaughn, while also being an offensive threat.

If you are going to call Washington up, at least give him the PT to show what he can do......

I think if Washington gets JVs minutes, we win that game.

Trade JV for Vujacic

[diego]

You mean those two games where Tony Parker was playing?

No, I'm not saying Kobe and LeBron don't have poor games. I'm saying Manu gets a glimpse of what Kobe and LeBron have had to go through for the last several years. That's all.

By the way, last year, Odom missed 26 games, Walton missed 22 games, Kwambe Brown missed 41 games. And there were long stretches where Kobe was missing all three of those regular starters at the same time and had play with much worse than what Manu had last night. Radmanovic also missed 27 games and Turiaf 10.

I'll tell you Bowen-Oberto-Barry-Finley-Horry-Vaughn is better than Smush Parker-Mo Evans-Brian Cook-Bynum-Vujacic.

As for LeBron, he hasn't had help his whole career in Cleveland. If you want to say Z is a pretty good player, that's fine. He's far from a player that substantially helps consistently at either end of the floor.

My original post wasn't a blast on Manu. It's to say how truly incredible Kobe and LeBron have been the last few seasons because they have to deal with what Manu had to deal with last night for the last couple seasons and still found ways to win while being everything for the team offensively. Manu slappies will get offended at anything that could be perceived as insulting to him. That's not what I was doing.

right, those two games that, as i referenced in my post, are comparable in that there is a 2nd all star on the floor (like it or not, Z and Odom are both all stars, though i wouldnt trade either for TP ).

i understand your post, and know that you arent hating for the sake of it. but i think its an unfair comparison because you make it sound like thats how it is for them all the time. do lebron and kobe go through stretches where the only decent help they have is injured? sure. but thats not the whole season for them, just like this is not the whole season for manu. manu had two good games without duncan, 1 bad one without him, and another bad one without parker or duncan. I havent bothered to get the averages for the 4, but rounding it it pretty much like kobe or lebron's season average usually looks like: 20+ ppg by volume, with plenty of boards, assists, turnovers, and about .500 record.

i havent proclaimed manu a franchise player or a super star or anything like that based on those 37pt games. and because of that i reserve the right to call out the people who'll say he is incapable of it based on two 15pt 6 TO games.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'm missing something here. What does this mean?
People keep saying it, but I don't know where they're getting this.
Anyone?

The coach whose team has the best record in the conference a couple of weeks before the ASG earns the right to coach the all-star team. Pop was 3 games up on everyone before the game in Oakland, but now the Spurs are only 1 game ahead of Phoenix. As the gap narrows, the chances go up that the Suns, not the Spurs, will have the best record at the cutoff and that D'Antoni, not Pop, will coach the West team at the All-Star game.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

You mean those two games where Tony Parker was playing?

No, I'm not saying Kobe and LeBron don't have poor games. I'm saying Manu gets a glimpse of what Kobe and LeBron have had to go through for the last several years. That's all.

By the way, last year, Odom missed 26 games, Walton missed 22 games, Kwambe Brown missed 41 games. And there were long stretches where Kobe was missing all three of those regular starters at the same time and had play with much worse than what Manu had last night. Radmanovic also missed 27 games and Turiaf 10.

I'll tell you Bowen-Oberto-Barry-Finley-Horry-Vaughn is better than Smush Parker-Mo Evans-Brian Cook-Bynum-Vujacic.

As for LeBron, he hasn't had help his whole career in Cleveland. If you want to say Z is a pretty good player, that's fine. He's far from a player that substantially helps consistently at either end of the floor.

My original post wasn't a blast on Manu. It's to say how truly incredible Kobe and LeBron have been the last few seasons because they have to deal with what Manu had to deal with last night for the last couple seasons and still found ways to win while being everything for the team offensively. Manu slappies will get offended at anything that could be perceived as insulting to him. That's not what I was doing.

With all respect you deserve, you are comparing apples to oranges. Kobe and Lebron know from the very beginning they have to do that every game. Manu doesn't have to do that every day, his team is not supposed to go thru what is going on now. If Manu was the only guy in the spurs, then I'm sure that coaching, practices and whatnot would be different and pointing towards making him adapt to anotehr way of playing. He would know before the season starts that he needs to score 30+ per game or be out. He would know he's the only guy with teh ball when it counts. That's what Lebron and Kobe go thru each season.

I would recommend you to get acquanted with what manu has done overseas before coming to the US for a totally different role he's ever had. When he was over there he had to play Kobe/Lebron many times and he was expected to do so.

So, totally different worlds that can't be translated like 1+1 = 2. The spurs are not built to have TP and TD out for long periods of time. Physically Manu can't play 35 mins a game during the entire season - he hasn't done that in years and the style of play doesn't require that. I honestly don't think manu needs to "taste" what the other guys go thru. He's done that alreayd many times.

Well, that was just my opinion

[BonnerDynasty]

As always, your entire post is wonderful. I agree with everything you said and appreciate your calming influence on this board. I also have great hope for this team and believe a repeat seems more likely this season than in past chances.

I hope that people who seem to forget what Duncan brings to this team will rediscover him when he comes back.
It easy to miss things that don't show in a boxscore. Duncan is way more than a double-double player to this team.
His season so far has not been great by his standards but I'm hoping the respect for him comes back.
The Spurs do not win a Championship without him.

No one has forgotten who T.D is

His absense shows the complete lack of interior defense and the fact that we NEED an inside outside game.

If we had another big who could actually post someone up, who could clog up the middle with DECENT defense, and if Manu would have showed up in the last two games, the Spurs would be 4-0 without TD.

We've got the deepest bench in the league but we are missing huge components without T.D. I'm glad T.D. has been out so we could see what we were missing in our bench players. I'd be fine with him sitting out 10 more games just to see if the bigs could step it up each game.

[FromWayDowntown]

My original post wasn't a blast on Manu. It's to say how truly incredible Kobe and LeBron have been the last few seasons because they have to deal with what Manu had to deal with last night for the last couple seasons and still found ways to win while being everything for the team offensively. Manu slappies will get offended at anything that could be perceived as insulting to him. That's not what I was doing.

I think it illustrates the difference between an All-Star and a true franchise player. Kobe and Lebron, whatever else they are, are true franchise players (as is Tim Duncan). Manu is good enough to do what Kobe and Lebron do at times -- and that's no small feat; it's what makes him an All-Star -- but it's clear that there's a difference between a guy who can do that from time-to-time and a guy who does it every night (or at least most nights).

[bdictjames]

I'd be fine with him sitting out 10 more games just to see if the bigs could step it up each game.

That is the only trouble I had with your post. I enjoyed reading the whole thing though.

For some reason, Spurs for me are more boring without Duncan, and I dont want him not to deserve to go to the All-Star game, as a reserve or as a starter. I want Duncan to go back ASAP, get 20-10 games, and put up a great winning record in December.

[SpursWoman]

The coach whose team has the best record in the conference a couple of weeks before the ASG earns the right to coach the all-star team. Pop was 3 games up on everyone before the game in Oakland, but now the Spurs are only 1 game ahead of Phoenix. As the gap narrows, the chances go up that the Suns, not the Spurs, will have the best record at the cutoff and that D'Antoni, not Pop, will coach the West team at the All-Star game.

D'Antoni would be eligible to do it again this year if Phoenix passes San Antonio?

[kolko]

D'Antonio would be eligible to do it again this year if Phoenix passes San Antonio?

Avery Johnson coached it last year.

[SpursWoman]

Avery Johnson coached it last year.

Avery coached it in 2006, D'Antoni coached it in 2007

[meta2007]

That's very ridiculous! Without Duncan and Parker who take more than 30 millions per year, only about half salaries were working. If took out 30 millions salary from lakers and cavaliers, Kobe and Lebron could not win either. Also, if Spurs used those 30 millions dollars to sign other players to play with Manu, Manu and spurs also could win.

I think it illustrates the difference between an All-Star and a true franchise player. Kobe and Lebron, whatever else they are, are true franchise players (as is Tim Duncan). Manu is good enough to do what Kobe and Lebron do at times -- and that's no small feat; it's what makes him an All-Star -- but it's clear that there's a difference between a guy who can do that from time-to-time and a guy who does it every night (or at least most nights).

[Uncle Donnie]

With all respect you deserve, you are comparing apples to oranges. Kobe and Lebron know from the very beginning they have to do that every game. Manu doesn't have to do that every day, his team is not supposed to go thru what is going on now.

Not only that but look at who Manu was playing with.

Vaughn < Fisher
Oberto < Odom
Bowen > Walton
Bonner < Bynum

It's hardly a valid comparison. No one would put Manu in the same category as Lebron or Kobe but to say that his struggles last night mean anything about how good Kobe or Lebron are is a reach.

[timvp]

If the worst thing someone says about Manu is he isn't as good as LeBron or Kobe, I'd take that as a compliment. Fighting the fight to equate Manu to LeBron or Kobe is pretty ridiculous.

Is Manu as good as Kobe or LeBron? Not on a nightly basis. Is Manu damn good? Yes.

[meta2007]

You know what, for Manu's fans, he is the best. For LeBron's fans, he is the best. For Kobe's fans, he is the best. Different person has different aesthetic judgment.

This is just like that, for a man, his wife is the most beautiful woman in the world, and his children are the cutest children in the world.

If the worst thing someone says about Manu is he isn't as good as LeBron or Kobe, I'd take that as a compliment. Fighting the fight to equate Manu to LeBron or Kobe is pretty ridiculous.

Is Manu as good as Kobe or LeBron? Not on a nightly basis. Is Manu damn good? Yes.

[FromWayDowntown]

Avery coached it in 2006, D'Antoni coached it in 2007

I forgot about that -- swept up in the Mavs' 06-07 successes.

SW is absolutely right.

[JamStone]

right, those two games that, as i referenced in my post, are comparable in that there is a 2nd all star on the floor (like it or not, Z and Odom are both all stars, though i wouldnt trade either for TP ).

It's not about me liking it or not, but Lamar Odom has never played in an all star game. And, the two times Zydrunas was an all star, the best the East had to offer to start at center was an offensively challenged Ben Wallace. For several years, the East had no good centers and Zydrunas was an all star by default. That's hardly comparable to Tony Parker who is a Finals MVP and looks to have many more all star appearances than 2 or zero. Neither Odom or Zydrunas is as impactful on a game the way Tony Parker is. And, again, at least as it pertains to Kobe, he's played without Odom in about 50 games since Odom became a Laker.

At any rate, you have your opinion. In my opinion, Manu and Spurs fans got a glimpse of what players like Kobe and LeBron have to go through night in and night out over the last few seasons.

[JamStone]

With all respect you deserve, you are comparing apples to oranges. Kobe and Lebron know from the very beginning they have to do that every game. Manu doesn't have to do that every day, his team is not supposed to go thru what is going on now. If Manu was the only guy in the spurs, then I'm sure that coaching, practices and whatnot would be different and pointing towards making him adapt to anotehr way of playing. He would know before the season starts that he needs to score 30+ per game or be out. He would know he's the only guy with teh ball when it counts. That's what Lebron and Kobe go thru each season.

Again, it's not a slight on Manu. I'm not saying he's a lesser player because of it. All I've said is that Manu got a chance to experience what Kobe and LeBron have had to experience for several seasons, being the facilitator, the scorer, the guy that gets the entire defense focused on him and see how difficult it can be sometimes. My comments were not directed at Manu. They were to speak on how much credit Kobe and LeBron should get for continuing to play at high levels despite having little help.

I would recommend you to get acquanted with what manu has done overseas before coming to the US for a totally different role he's ever had. When he was over there he had to play Kobe/Lebron many times and he was expected to do so.

I would recommend you to re-read my first post and realize my comments were not a slight against Manu but complimentary praise to players like Kobe and LeBron.

So, totally different worlds that can't be translated like 1+1 = 2. The spurs are not built to have TP and TD out for long periods of time. Physically Manu can't play 35 mins a game during the entire season - he hasn't done that in years and the style of play doesn't require that. I honestly don't think manu needs to "taste" what the other guys go thru. He's done that alreayd many times.

Didn't say they were the same world. Wasn't translating any mathematic formula. If you can place your bias aside for a moment, you'll realize my comments, though including Manu, aren't about Manu.

Well, that was just my opinion

Cool.

[LakerLanny]

The officiating was atrocious, but that isn't exactly a news flash.

If Duncan and Parker didn't exist, I would like our chances in the West. Methinks they may have been good for 5 or more pts combined though.

Meaningless regular season game, but I'll take it.

By the way, your fellow SpursTalk fans DESTROYED me in Fantasy Football....I didn't even make the playoffs despite having the first pick in the draft, the HORROR! You know how long it took me to save up that $10?

[JamStone]

Not only that but look at who Manu was playing with.

Vaughn < Fisher
Oberto < Odom
Bowen > Walton
Bonner < Bynum

It's hardly a valid comparison. No one would put Manu in the same category as Lebron or Kobe but to say that his struggles last night mean anything about how good Kobe or Lebron are is a reach.

And, the long stretches of games Kobe played with Smush Parker, Sasha Vujacic, Brian Cook, and Ronny Turiaf as the main role players around him when Odom, Kwame, and Luke Walter were injured and Andrew Bynum was sucking last year?

And, it wasn't a comparison of individuals between Kobe/LeBron and Manu. It's a comparison of a situation where one player has to do everything for a team, especially offensively, in order to have success.

[JamStone]

I think it illustrates the difference between an All-Star and a true franchise player. Kobe and Lebron, whatever else they are, are true franchise players (as is Tim Duncan). Manu is good enough to do what Kobe and Lebron do at times -- and that's no small feat; it's what makes him an All-Star -- but it's clear that there's a difference between a guy who can do that from time-to-time and a guy who does it every night (or at least most nights).

That wasn't my point. I have no doubt that if Manu had to play without Duncan and Parker for long stretches of games, he'd figure a way to have some outstanding performances. My point is that when an entire offense requires your playmaking and scoring almost all throughout the game and the defense is completely focused on you and geared to stop you, it's extremely difficult.

Manu could have gone for 30, 10, and 10 last night and my comment would essentially be the same. Everyone would be proclaiming how great Manu was without Duncan and Parker, and I'd say yeah it was amazing, and think about Kobe and LeBron having to do that 50-60 games a season where they have to put up those kinds of performances to help their teams win.

People are focusing on my comments thinking it's somehow me trying to explain how Manu is not as good as Kobe or LeBron. That's not what my comments are intended for at all. They are saying how difficult it is for an individual player to carry the load offensively especially when a team's one and only priority is to stop that one individual player.

Again, it's more praise on players like Kobe and LeBron than it is anything negative on Manu.

[Slippy]

Since we making comparisons. I don't think i saw even one instance where Kobe got double teamed or trapped on the perimeter like Manu did. At Timvp's thoughts suggested, the lakers ate him up.

Come to think of it , I don't remember the Spurs employing that type of D on Kobe in years. Having Bruce to guard him and Tim to back you up does make things easier .

[Slippy]

although, i do remember the Spurs giving the same looks on D to lebron in the finals and we know how that went.

[Medvedenko]

But lets be honest here..Lebron and Kobe are better. No way that is an insult because Lebron and Kobe could be one of the 5 best offensive players ever in the game once they retire!

Kobe is already in the Top 3 for offensive players of all time....this is a lock. You can't base it on pure PPG either.
Wilt
MJ
Kobe

[JamStone]

Kobe is already in the Top 3 for offensive players of all time....this is a lock. You can't base it on pure PPG either.
Wilt
MJ
Kobe

Have you heard of Oscar Robertson, and I'm not basing it on just PPG.

[Medvedenko]

I love the Big O....but he's not in the Top 3.