Can a relationship survive this?

[AFBlue]

But factor in something like daycare - I have friends who have to pay over $1600 a month for daycare (nearly twice my mortgage payment) - because of the area of the country they live in. But because of the money inflow-outflow in their families and how the insurance was divided, they truly could not afford to have children - they couldn't afford for both to work or one to stay home.

But then, I suppose the argument could be made that being a teacher in a HCOL is their choice, and that they could move to a lower col area. But that's not always feasible either.

Damn, life is always so ing complicated.

I understand that there are some unavoidable costs that must be incurred when you have a child, but the scenario above begs MANY questions...

What type of house did they live in? Cars did they drive? Jobs did they have? Bills/Debt? Was there family around (daycare subs ute)?

These are just a bunch of rhetorical questions and more "food for thought" than anything....but I guess what I'm getting to is that there were probably some non-essential "must haves" that prevented them from making the decision and not just the outragous cost of daycare.

[spurster]

The two most important things to learn in life is that "Life is not fair." and "Fantasy is not reality." Sure, you can make great plans, but what do you do when they fail? You have to be prepared for contingencies, and if this relationship can't handle that, then, yes, it is doomed.

[easjer]

Love is a pretty big one that you forgot.

You can get through ALOT of with love.

True, but in my experience, love isn't enough without the other things - respect, trust, honesty, communication. If trust and communication are gone, love is a thin bandaid on a gaping wound.

If the love is strong enough to bridge the gap and reopen communication. . . then I'd guess trust can be rebuilt and respect will come in time again, and they can make it through anything.

It's hard to remember that you love and are loved when you can't feel it - when sadness or anger are blocking it out. That's why the other things are important.

[AFBlue]

No, I understand. I mean to say something more and sidetracked myself. I was going to add that if it is necessary, things can frequently be done to better prepare financially for children or adapt. If we found out I was pregnant tomorrow, well, we'd cancel the cable and internet and put that money towards paying off the debt and Jason would probably get a second job. We just didn't want to live that way, and didn't want that stress on our relationship or in our lives.

Fortunately, you two are agreeable to making the sacrafices necessary if confronted with having to make this decision. And presumably, you've talked about it.

Again, this is apparently not the situation for the two involved. It's pretty apparent what the guy is focused on at the moment, but the girl needs to sit down and really think what she wants to do, then she needs to talk it over with this guy.

It sounds as if she has aspirations of her own that would prevent her from having the child, but I would really discourage her from making the decision based on his desire. As I said before, IMO this is one of those times that she needs to be selfish, make the decision she feels is right, and hope that he jives with the decision.

[easjer]

I understand that there are some unavoidable costs that must be incurred when you have a child, but the scenario above begs MANY questions...

What type of house did they live in? Cars did they drive? Jobs did they have? Bills/Debt? Was there family around (daycare subs ute)?

These are just a bunch of rhetorical questions and more "food for thought" than anything....but I guess what I'm getting to is that there were probably some non-essential "must haves" that prevented them from making the decision and not just the outragous cost of daycare.

Oh, I don't know all the financial details. I know that it boiled down to working would cost them 80% of her salary after taxes and that if she didn't work, it would add $400 a month in insurance costs to their bills and they could not afford that on his salary alone. I'm sure that if they hadn't ended up moving back to Nebraska, they would have looked more closely into her finding part-time work (harder to do for teachers) to offset costs, or finding less-expensive in home daycare or nanny-sharing or something. If absolutely necessary, they could have moved into a smaller apartment, but that is rather a temporary solution.

[leemajors]

no, it will always invariably resurface later. my wife got pregnant again 6 months after our first child was born, and basically made the decision to abort. i supported her, but i continually feel guilty about it. catholic upbringing can bring the pain, even if you are no longer a practicing one.

[Borosai]

True, but in my experience, love isn't enough without the other things - respect, trust, honesty, communication. If trust and communication are gone, love is a thin bandaid on a gaping wound.

If the love is strong enough to bridge the gap and reopen communication. . . then I'd guess trust can be rebuilt and respect will come in time again, and they can make it through anything.

It's hard to remember that you love and are loved when you can't feel it - when sadness or anger are blocking it out. That's why the other things are important.

So true.

[AFBlue]

Oh, I don't know all the financial details. I know that it boiled down to working would cost them 80% of her salary after taxes and that if she didn't work, it would add $400 a month in insurance costs to their bills and they could not afford that on his salary alone. I'm sure that if they hadn't ended up moving back to Nebraska, they would have looked more closely into her finding part-time work (harder to do for teachers) to offset costs, or finding less-expensive in home daycare or nanny-sharing or something. If absolutely necessary, they could have moved into a smaller apartment, but that is rather a temporary solution.

Well I gotta take the dog out to pee and then head to bed. Yep, the dog that I got my wife in lieu of a baby because it's just not the right time or place to have a kid and we're holding off for a bit....

Still, if we were to get pregnant tomorrow, I have no doubt of what we would do....having already discussed it and prepared accordingly (lots of $$$ saved up from a second income).

Just thought you should know that I too make decisions that affect having a baby.

[AFBlue]

True, but in my experience, love isn't enough without the other things - respect, trust, honesty, communication. If trust and communication are gone, love is a thin bandaid on a gaping wound.

If the love is strong enough to bridge the gap and reopen communication. . . then I'd guess trust can be rebuilt and respect will come in time again, and they can make it through anything.

It's hard to remember that you love and are loved when you can't feel it - when sadness or anger are blocking it out. That's why the other things are important.

I didn't mean to suggest that love and those other things were mutually exclusive.

Just that love between two people is the foundation on which relationships are built and maintained...even in hard times.

I have no disagreement that honesty, trust, and open communication are necessary elements to a successful relationship.

[easjer]

Well I gotta take the dog out to pee and then head to bed. Yep, the dog that I got my wife in lieu of a baby because it's just not the right time or place to have a kid and we're holding off for a bit....

Still, if we were to get pregnant tomorrow, I have no doubt of what we would do....having already discussed it and prepared accordingly (lots of $$$ saved up from a second income).

Just thought you should know that I too make decisions that affect having a baby.

It's easier when you aren't alone, surely. In real life - I'm surrounded by babies. Had 9 babies born among my friends and family this year!

And we have one of those dogs too. Didn't get it with the intention of being in lieu of baby or for training, but he's been both. My hope is that a baby won't try to eat his own tail (and really, that he doesn't have one) or bark at the cat.

[easjer]

I didn't mean to suggest that love and those other things were mutually exclusive.

Just that love between two people is the foundation on which relationships are built and maintained...even in hard times.

I have no disagreement that honesty, trust, and open communication are necessary elements to a successful relationship.

I think we agree on a lot of things, Tony. Have a good night.

[AFBlue]

It's easier when you aren't alone, surely. In real life - I'm surrounded by babies. Had 9 babies born among my friends and family this year!

And we have one of those dogs too. Didn't get it with the intention of being in lieu of baby or for training, but he's been both. My hope is that a baby won't try to eat his own tail (and really, that he doesn't have one) or bark at the cat.

My wife has been wanting a dog since we moved away from home b/c of my job. I finally conceded, and I have to be honest that it was partially due to the fact that we had decided to hold off on trying, but that a baby was something we still both wanted.

My wife sees alot of babies and pregnant women too. Seems like every woman she knows either gets pregnant within 2 days of trying or has some disturbing story about endless in-vitro treatments and all kinds of issues. I can only hope our story is more like the former...

My hope is that a baby's teeth don't grow in too quickly or that he/she won't enjoy teething on my hands, socks, or shoes...

[AFBlue]

I think we agree on a lot of things, Tony. Have a good night.

Night...

And tell your friend that this guy on the "internets" thinks she should ultimately make the decision she feels is best for her (it's okay to be selfish on this one).

I'm sure she'll consider the source, but hey...I think it's pretty good advice.

[easjer]

My wife has been wanting a dog since we moved away from home b/c of my job. I finally conceded, and I have to be honest that it was partially due to the fact that we had decided to hold off on trying, but that a baby was something we still both wanted.

My wife sees alot of babies and pregnant women too. Seems like every woman she knows either gets pregnant within 2 days of trying or has some disturbing story about endless in-vitro treatments and all kinds of issues. I can only hope our story is more like the former...

My hope is that a baby's teeth don't grow in too quickly or that he/she won't enjoy teething on my hands, socks, or shoes...

If she hasn't already, your wife might consider reading Taking Charge of Your Fertility by Toni Wesschler (yeah, double check the spelling of author's name). It explains (very well, very understandable) about charting fertility signs to achieve or avoid pregnancy. Charting is very useful for getting an overall grasp of fertility and fertile periods and when you are ovulating. It can also tell you if you are ovulating and help diagnose some other potential fertility issues before you pay a doctor good money on expensive and invasive fertility tests.

Charting may not be ideal for her (I know lots of women who feel stressed out by it or feel it's too clinical), but I love it. I learned so much more about my body that I didn't know. We've successfully used charting to avoid pregnancy for five years - and it's easy to switch to trying to achieve pregnancy - no time wasted regulating off hormones.

[AFBlue]

If she hasn't already, your wife might consider reading Taking Charge of Your Fertility by Toni Wesschler (yeah, double check the spelling of author's name). It explains (very well, very understandable) about charting fertility signs to achieve or avoid pregnancy. Charting is very useful for getting an overall grasp of fertility and fertile periods and when you are ovulating. It can also tell you if you are ovulating and help diagnose some other potential fertility issues before you pay a doctor good money on expensive and invasive fertility tests.

Charting may not be ideal for her (I know lots of women who feel stressed out by it or feel it's too clinical), but I love it. I learned so much more about my body that I didn't know. We've successfully used charting to avoid pregnancy for five years - and it's easy to switch to trying to achieve pregnancy - no time wasted regulating off hormones.

Don't have the book, but we know all about the charting and methods to get/avoid being pregnant. Oh and we've already checked on the fertility thing (ovulation/sperm count), mostly because I have unbelievably good/cheap medical insurance...

I don't perceive any issues when we want it to happen <<knocking on wood>>, but thanks for the advice.

Okay, I think I just heard my name being called....time for bed. After all, it is 2 AM here in Georgia.

Thanks again.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Me? I would dump the guy, forgo law school for now, have the baby, and get on with it. He screwed up, but better to find out now that he's a heartless SOB. Heartless, you may ask? Yes, anyone who loves their things more than they love their kids is, to me, heartless. This kid is interfering in his plans to acquire more things. Bottom line.

What if she agreed to not have children at all costs until the set date?

Is it out of the realm of possibility that she is the one changing the rules of their agreement?

There never is a clear-cut bottom line. Bottom line.

[blizz]

You'll always get righteous idiots trying to impose their beliefs on you.

kinda like what you're doing?

[Nbadan]

I think Sapphire was commenting on his basically telling her to abort the kid without them talking about the pregnancy rationally together first and how it would affect their future plans ...I'm never in favor of a abortion when the couple are in a loving relationship that they both think will last, especially because the main reason against having the baby is because it would set them back financially some...now if they already had 3 kids and were barely making it as it is, cir stances might be different....but ultimately, If you believe in God, then you gotta believe that he has a purpose for everything...one thing is for sure though, this will test their relationship.....

[blizz]

Yep, the dog that I got my wife in lieu of a baby because it's just not the right time or place to have a kid and we're holding off for a bit....

I was in the same boat. My wife and I have been together for over 12 years...married for just under 2. We JUST got pregnant. Why? Because we weren't ready..and guess what? We were responsible and careful adults who took that seriously and took every precaution so that we would NOT get pregnant. Once we were ready to, we did. I regret waiting so long...but we're much more stable now and the time is right. I'll say this....with all of the problems we've had so far with this pregnancy...ie the threat of a misscarriage for 4 weeks then a false positive triple screen test...it just kills me to think that someone would voluntarily abort a pregnancy. I'd never wish how those early days felt. Just to let yall know, we have a healthy baby girl coming in less than 2 months and even though it's going to be hard...going to test our patience and wallets...I cannot wait! It's what parents do....they sacrifice for their children.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

oh give us a ing break! Its not his body, so he shouldn't have a say? Fine, then if men don't have a say on weather or not to abort, they shouldn't be forced to pay child support huh? Its not that ing simple.

Basically it boils down to wether you believe abortion is a viable option. Sixth Man over here obviously doesn't. Personally, I think its something both parents should discuss and make an informed, well thought out decision about what is in both their best interests.

In the end its a tricky question to ask on a message board. You'll always get righteous idiots trying to impose their beliefs on you. In the end, the right choice is something that your friends are going to have to come up with on their own.

Having said that, if the dude gave your friend an ultimatum, then yes, he is a ing ! He's not considering her feelings on this, which is bull .

Are you this ing stupid? Scratch that I already know the answer. And get the out of here thinking you know what I believe in by one ing post. If the dude didn't want a baby then he shouldn't be ing her in the first place. And where in my post did I say that abortion wasn't a viable option? Do you know any one personally who has went through an abortion? If you do then you know that it s up chicks both emotionally and physically. It's not like some ing simple operation or something like that. There are some girls who get hysterical during and after the procedure. So if they're both adults and they know better. Then why should they abort? I do believe there are certain instances when abortion is and should be an option. But this is not one of those situations. You have to be a real ing chump to be ing a girl ask her to be your wife and then when you find out that she's pregnant tell her what to do all because it's not in the "plans".

By no means well I ever try to impose my beliefs on any one that I don't personally have a connection too, especially on a message board . So get that straight. I simply gave my 2 cents on the subject. I could care less what some random strangers do with their own personal lives. But I am en led to my opinion. And when looking back at my post I wasn't trying to impose my beliefs on any one, just stating my opinion.

[ploto]

Let me start by saying I am pro-life, so that affects my views- but probably not in the way that people think.

I actually am not as hard on the guy as some people here are because the notion has been placed in the minds of many men that most women are pro-choice, and I think that quite possibly he thought that she was considering an abortion already.

Consider if the story were the other way around- what if she was pregnant and did not think it was in the plans right now and said she was going to get an abortion and he was the one who was broken up about having what he perceived to be his child killed by the woman he loves. People would think that situation was OK because of their pro-choice views and the preceived rights of the woman. Fathers have no legal rights in these cases and that is why I am not as hard on them as some are. She could get an abortion tomorrow- even against his wishes- and no one would care about him.

[xrayzebra]

He will walk if she keeps the baby. If she caves in to his
desires she will regret it somewhere down the line. She will
always wonder how the child would have turned out.
It's a no win situation, unless the marriage occurs and
the child is born.

Sounds like he is like a lot of men these days, he wants his
cake and eat it to. Sex with no consequences, it just doesn't
happen. There are always consequences.

A new home and a car will never replace a family.
If he were half a man he would marry the lady and enjoy his
family, especially if he loves her as much as you say.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

God gave us abortions for a reason. I guess I'm spoiled, but if my chick and I had this problem both of us would be breaking each other's necks trying to get out the door and onward to the clinic. Worry about your own lives. Breeding is not an automatic requirement in a marriage.

[angel_luv]

I have a friend in real life who just confided to me that she is pregnant. This is wildly unplanned, complete accident sort of thing. Her fiance is really, really unhappy about it, because it really screws up their plans for the future (they were getting married in June, had plans to buy a house and a new car, she was supposed to start law school in August, which is when she's due).

In fact, he's asked her terminate the pregnancy.

She's really upset right now. She's unsure about whether or not she wants to have the baby (although she loves kids and really wants to be a mother - they had not planned on children until she passed the bar - over 3 years from now). But she is really upset that he asked her terminate, because she doesn't know what happens if she decides not to.

Without arguing over whether or not you personally believe abortion is a good/viable/necessary/evil/terrible option - do you think a relationship can survive such a thing? It seems very much like a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing.

I think the relationship is in trouble because the fiancee doesn't seem equipped to deal with curve balls that life throws.

Things that are unexpected and inconvenient ( although I believe babies are a blessing and should not be considered in that category) are always going to come up.

If all this guy can't adjust and team up to make the best out of situations, he is not going to do well as a husband.

I am really sorry for your friend. I am sure she had envisioned being pregnant as a joyful experience.
I hope she doesn't let this guy dictate her decision making because it doesn't sound like he cares enough about her best interest and desires.

In the guy's defense, he may have reacted badly initially out of stress.
Maybe he will be more supportive in a few days once his head is better together.

[inconvertible]

killing babies for shelfish "life goals not yet achieved" reasons. Is inherently very evil.

DONT DO IT.