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Nah, the le is definitely off. The traditional candidates and their followers certainly see Paul as a threat so it's not surprising that he's getting the 'treatment' now.
Oh so I'm the only one here who thinks the thread le is incorrect?
Nah, the le is definitely off. The traditional candidates and their followers certainly see Paul as a threat so it's not surprising that he's getting the 'treatment' now.
One of these things is not like the others...nice job grouping pro-lifers with militant racists and suicide bombers.
Other groups who will vote for Paul:
Anti-imperial Americans
Non-Interventionists
non neo-con Republicans (aka Republicans aka Conservatives)
Home schooling parents
pro-choicers
Fiscal Conservatives
Democrats
etc...
Xenophobes will vote for Paul because he doesn't want war with other nations? I think you have it backwards.
One of these things is not like the others...nice job grouping pro-lifers with militant racists and suicide bombers.
Spoken like someone who's never been to an abortion clinic...or heard of one of them being bombed.
It's more like I'm grouping the militant racists with the pro lifers and terrorists.
LOL....boy are you going to feel stupid when he loses the election. Errr...doesn't even get the nomination.
I bet you're still wondering how Kerry didn't get elected.
The actions of a few do not transfer to the whole. Not every self-proclaimed environmentalist is a 'terrorist' because a handful resorted to violence.
Errrrrr.. Jim Rome???? Brah?
I would only feel stupid if I believed anything said by a presidential candidate other than Paul. If he doesn't win the primary, then I'm not the stupid one.
I didn't give a , actually, about Kerry. Though I do know that anyone who trusts an electronic voting machine with no paper trail needs to have his head examined.
GMTA
I haven't hard one good and sensible, or responsible, reason for pulling out of Iraq...
I'm sorry but, "they don't want us there, they don't like us" doesn't cut it.
The violent ones don't like us...the propaganda pieces don't like us...the ones that want control and to be the power dujour don't like us...you serve that opinion, you serve them.
Dwell on why we went in all you want...
Doesn't change the fact that we can do a whole lot to imrprove the conditions that plague the middle east...
Whether or not this was a just war or a good war will not be decided until the day we pull out...and pulling out now guarantess it will have been a bad war.
Guarantees it. And no one is going to respect us for like us more for doing it...
We'll be the Mavs of the World....
And the next time someone wants to sieze power, here, there anywhere, they are going to immediately go to guerilla tactics.
That is the voice that should not be served and I am completely amazed at how many people that think they have so much insight can miss the boat on that...
Talk to Vietnamese American sometime...be sure to tell them you were in favor of pulling out of Vietnam...
After they spit in your face to soothe their murdered relatives and stolen land you might begin to understand what you are saying.
Saddam's gone.
How about it's too damn expensive in terms of $ and the lives of military personnel?I'm sorry but, "they don't want us there, they don't like us" doesn't cut it.
The violent ones don't like us in other parts of the world. How many other countries will we invade and occupy to make them like us?
The violent ones don't like us...the propaganda pieces don't like us...you serve that opinion, you serve them.
We can do a lot to 'improve the conditions' in a host of countries by removing their dictatorships. Why stop with Iraq?
Dwell on why we went in all you want...
Doesn't change the fact that we can do a whole lot to imrprove the conditions that plague the middle east...
Whether or not this was a just war or a good war will not be decided until the day we pull out...and pulling out now guarantess it will have been a bad war.
That is the voice that should not be served and I am completely amazed at how many people that think they have so much insight can miss the boat on that...
Talk to Vietnamese American sometime...be sure to tell them you were in favor of pulling out Vietnam...
After they spit in your face to justify their murdered relatives you might begin to understand what you are saying.
So instead we send billion$ more as well as more American servicemen and women to die in the desert because Saddam once tried to off GWB's daddy.
The Mavs know how to start they can't win.We'll be the Mavs of the World....
And pulling out with a still wrecked infrastructure and mass political upheavel all but assures a new one will come along soon.
How about people that aren't willing to die don't join the military...and some thing are more important than money...
How about it's too damn expensive in terms of $ and the lives of military personnel?
Whose about money now?
Funny how going into Iraq for money is evil but pulling out isn't...
Lame.
The violent ones don't like us in other parts of the world. How many other countries will we invade and occupy to make them like us?
It's not about making them like us....it's about giving them a quality of life to where suicide doesn't seem like a wonderful option.
And we're already there....
We can do a lot to 'improve the conditions' in a host of countries by removing their dictatorships. Why stop with Iraq?
Because if we're successful in Iraq...a successful Iraq does more to undermine authoritarian regimes than anything else we could do.
Surely you see this?
Like I said....you can name one billion reasons why we went in...none of them matter now. What matters is the end result of us being there...and a pullout assures a ty one...with a lot of bloodshed...in particular the ones that are trying to make Iraq a better place.So instead we send billion$ more as well as more American servicemen and women to die in the desert because Saddam once tried to off GWB's daddy.
So you say we "can do a whole lot!!!" to.......
Is it happening? Is the indefinite and multi front war doing it? I think it keeps getting worse.
You sound like you expect some seismic shift in the zeitgeist will occur any moment providing we stay at war. Would Vietnam have been a 'success' if we just kept fighting?
I think that there are effective ways to help the m.e. -- The war isn't one of them.
A war is just or unjust in itself, not based on the outcome.
That's because you are watching the news and listening to the propaganda.
I think it's definitely better.
Of course I do...my god, you expect a war where no one fights back...if that were the nature of war there would be no wars.
You sound like you expect some seismic shift in the zeitgeist will occur any moment providing we stay at war.
Is the 2 million that were murdered after we pulled out your idea of doing the right thing?Would Vietnam have been a 'success' if we just kept fighting?
Is it truly?
I think that there are effective ways to help the m.e. -- The war isn't one of them.
A war is just or unjust in itself, not based on the outcome.
And you're wrong...
Oh there's no doubt we're more just than Saddam was...and there's no doubt we had every legal ground to go into Iraq. There's also no doubt he was ty brutal military dictator...who just so happened to be in violation of cease fire agreements with us...
Like I say...
You, the white supremacists, the anti-americans, the militans Islamacists...
You guys all say the same thing...
I could go find one that is completely illiterate, and he would say the exact same things you say...it's propaganda at it's finest...
Whott, it is you who is in the minority, it is you who have not been educated on the issues. The War in Iraq was wrong, is wrong, and will always be wrong. The numbers of troops we have, the violence going down then up then down is irrelevant.
If you think what we are doing is just, then fine tell me where you live and I'll come to your house with my guns, wreck your home, take your assets and let you live in a corner with no electricity or basic utilities. Seriously if you are ok with that I'll get a contract drawn up for you and you can PM your address to me.
How is it a given that continuing to occupy Iraq will eventually lead to a successful conclusion for the US?
Sticks and stones, man..... It was a good dialouge before your last post.
NEWS?! I watch THE NEWS?!
My point is this:
The cultural shift that I referred to will not likely happen as a result of THIS war.
The only wars in History where that has happened are complete, Imperial annexations (Syria, Egypt, Macedon, Rome), and also ideological wars where an enemy was completely or near completely annihilated (French and US Revolutions, Protestant Revolution in England, US Civil War, US-Indian wars, WWII).
Both types of wars irrevocably and totally changed the spirit of the age, or zeitgeist of the conquered -- for better or worse.
What kind of war is Iraq II? --
Of course, we ALL hope the Iraq war will be for the greater good. Even illiterate, white supremecists do in their own way.
It's different, most people hope. We aren't "annexing" Iraq, right? (Not politically i suppose, but certainly we are financially.) We can't impose the Rule of Law on them by annihilation. So how do we do it? Rerbuild their roads and schools and sewers -- fine -- but at the same time, more and more people are blowing up little Iraqi kids and US soldiers. When will we change in totality the "spirit" of Iraq.
Less war would equal better relations would equal better diplomacy would equal beter "standard of living." Isn't the Iraqi pres. dempcraically elected? Their civil war doesn't need us. In fact, when we leave, the war will continue, but I would argue that it would not last as long or be as bloody.
It sure as will....in fact it's already begun. What kind of fairytale world do you live in where everything go smoothly...
It's already begun. It began the day we removed a minority ruling military dictator from power and sections of the population were given voice for the first time in decades.
You are talking about a region where speaking out meant death and torture for you and your family, where every thing was done by force, and where tolerance and openmindedness, the free exchange of ideas were completely stifled...and you expect them to just step into it and start singing kumbaya...
I never expected that...
You also seem to be completely naive about how the regional powers(read Saudi Arabia and Iran) neither of which are a Democracy, nor do they want a Democracy...would try to influence the outcome.
Of course there are going to be power struggles...there always going to be those that attempt to capitalize on their situation for their gain...that's who you serve when you advocate a pullout by the way.
You serve the cause of rendering the whole thing meaningless.
And I know you think it's already meaningless...you're wrong.
It didn't start out a muslim country...
The only wars in History where that has happened are complete, Imperial annexations (Syria, Egypt, Macedon, Rome), and also ideological wars where an enemy was completely or near completely annihilated (French and US Revolutions, Protestant Revolution in England, US Civil War, US-Indian wars, WWII).
Both types of wars irrevocably and totally changed the spirit of the age, or zeitgeist of the conquered -- for better or worse.
What kind of war is Iraq II? --
It's a liberation war...for those who forgotten what it means to be liberated...but those that want that liberty nonthless.
It'll take 2 generations minimum...that doesn't make it a bad war.
When you advocate a pullout you render the entire conflict meaningless and almost certainly assure a similar situation...Of course, we ALL hope the Iraq war will be for the greater good. Even illiterate, white supremecists do in their own way.
Take a look at Afghanistan...that's what your pullout will accomplish.
Sure but he doesn't have a foothold on power.Isn't the Iraqi pres. dempcraically elected?
If a civil breaks out we'll discuss the merits of leaving...it's not a certainty yet.Their civil war doesn't need us.
In fact, when we leave, the war will continue, but I would argue that it would not last as long or be as bloody.
Dude...the bulk of the war is over, but there is no stability there and the weakened infrastructure makes it a survival of the fittest situation should we pull out.
At the very least...we don't pull out until the majority of the infrastructure has been rebuilt.
Otherwise you're looking at Afghanistan again...only worse, and with more money.
There's no justification for pulling out and you can not show me a single situation where pulling out because of guerilla tactics worked well...
The Soviets did it and the loss of esteem was so great they collapsed. We did it in Vietnam and never regained the prestige or esteem we had prior to that war...
I'm sorry..but pulling out is completely utterly and thoroughly wrong.
Notice how Whott refused to respond to my post.
Here's another one for you, it would seem that new reports say that Civil War is highly unlikely.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...802262_pf.html
You posted no facts and a lame analogy that reveals a complete and utter ignorance of the differences between the USA and an entrentched military dictator of a minority party brutally ruling over a majority.
Not the same thing that all...
IF you tried that in Iraq under Saddam? You'd succeed....because they'd have no defense...if you tried it here...I'd blow your ing head off...and be completely within my rights to do so. Do you see the difference? Do you see why it's not the same thing...
And by the way...thanks for the platform for me to illustrate exactly why this war is a good one...because you can't do what you'd attempt to do in your analogy here...and you can there.
Do you get it?
Why we went in is irrelevant to all but those looking for someone to blame...there'll be a time to do that...but now is not that time.
Bottom line...
Saddam = bad
Democracy = good
It is that simple...it's just that simple. And if you don't agree...then go live in Iran...be sure to freely give your ideas, in particular your religious ones...lots of voice there...
But you wouldn't do that...because you wouldn't want to live there...would you? What makes you think they do?
Last edited by whottt; 12-21-2007 at 02:34 AM.
You're right Whott, I no longer have to have this discussion with you as you have completely proven your intelligence level to everyone.
People are worried about a racist giving Ron Paul $500. With all the control that big money has in this country over the political parties and the media - we are supposed to be concerned about $500?
I award no points to this attack on Ron Paul:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKjxF...eature=related
Ha! Apparantly the guy who posted that is a Paul supporter; here's what he said about the video:
A line I find worthy of consideration every time I hear someone say something mind-numbingly, anti-logically, paradoxically stupid. In other words, quite often. Watch the Republican debates and you can imagine seeing one particular candidate *cough*Ron Paul*cough* thinking this every time the others speak.
Eh...I don't see why it's a crime to aid countries seeking our help...it won the Cold War. There are people that are sworn to the destruction of the United States...it's not paranoia. Read any Socialist platform, they all say for Socialism to work there can be no other alternative...it's not a paranoid delusion or anything.
The world is no disney land where every just wants to be left alone to mind their own business...
People kill people for no reason, people do ty stuff for no reason...People seek power and control...these are all very real things. IT's not like if you don't threaten anyone, no one will threaten you...the world just does not work that way.
And I agree...you can't invade with a guerilla war...but that won't be how the US is attacked, never said it would be.
However...if we are attacked by a foreign country...do you propose we merely just defend ourselves and not strike the attacking country?
That is a war will be guaranteed to lose...
That's a guy picking a fight with you and you doing nothing but trying to avoid his punches...that will not work, that takes more skill than just fighting the guy straight up. And if you eventually you will get hit.
To say there will never be any need to fight a guerilla war is a huge oversimplification...and until we prove it won't work, it'll be something we face should that eventuality arrive.
The reason the United States is now a major power in the mid-east is because we were twice drug into World Wars by powers vying for control of that region of the world.....it wasn't like we just one day said...hey let's take over the middle east...it was more a case of, you guys going to keep bringing us into your wars...then we're going to go ahead take control of this situation.
America was isolationist...it didn't work...and lot more died because we thought we could be isolationist than have died since we realized we couldn't. Fact.
Ron Paul may be a master of the cons ution...but he's woefully unaware of US history beyond isolationist catchphrases. Being an isolationist didn't work...and the cost was millions of American lives. Millions...if you guys think hte bodycount of the Iraq war is monstrous...go look at what happened when we were Isolationist.
Last edited by whottt; 12-22-2007 at 12:17 AM.
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