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Oh yeah, forgot the Houston one. Oops. It counts in the standings, but I didn't read too much into that one since Dirk was suspended.
Loss vs. New Orleans
Loss vs. Spurs
Loss vs. Lakers
Loss vs. Utah
Loss vs. Houston
Looks like 0-5 vs. Western Conference playoff teams to me.
Oh yeah, forgot the Houston one. Oops. It counts in the standings, but I didn't read too much into that one since Dirk was suspended.
Oh yes, that vaunted Conferene that was known as the Leastern Conference. The year was 01-02 and Kidd has just led his Nets past three sub-50 win teams to reach his first Finals. He promtly gets swept. Yes, you read that right. His Nets reached the Finals from the East whilest never playing a 50-win team along the way. While the 02-03 season may have been a bit more impressive, given that they actually defeated a 50-win Pistons teams to get to the Finals, considering a 50-win team may not even make the playoffs out west, and the eventual Western Conference champion will likely have to defeat three 50-win clubs to reach the Finals, reaching twice while only playing/beating one 50-win club should really be put in its proper context.This is by far the most talented team Kidd's ever been on. Kidd has gotten to the Finals twice with a far less talented team with Martin as their best goto guy.
And Ming was out. WTF?! Dallas had the better talented team in the game. Just not the better play.
Yeah, I know Ming was out. I just felt Dirk would've made a difference. A 15-point difference? Maybe, maybe not.
America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.
Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat.
You act like Dallas is a finished product. It's going to take awhile to get used to Kidd's style but this is the most talent Kidd's ever had on a team. If he can't win with this team in the playoffs, than you have a point. Otherwise I think too much was asked of Kidd on his past teams to be successful. It's not like Dallas gave up an all-star to get Kidd like Phoenix did to get Shaq. Marion>>>Harris in value to team.
I've not acted like anything. I've said nothing but facts the entire time. Sure, they are past facts, but some are as recent as this year. The Mav are still 0-4 vs. Western Conference playoff teams as an entire team. Kidd got personally torched by Paul and Williams, and Alston even made him his for good measure. Parker is still hobbled and getting back into top game shape, else he'd have bent Kidd over as well.
I've never said that a Kidd-led Dallas squad can't win a series. I've merely stated that history, past and present, isn't looking very bright, and that, if he should prevail in the first round for the first time in his Western Conference career, that I wouldn't expect much after that. He can't shoot. Any team that can play a modi of defense can exploit this if they can control the tempo. If slowed, and the ball is in Kidd's hands, his defender will play off of him, relegating Kidd into forcing a bad pass, or into a perimeter jumper that has roughly 25% chance of going in. If the ball isn't in his hands, then there's the player you double off of until the ball is in his hands.
I've seen it. I saw it for five playoff runs. I don't know why some just write me off. And that was when Kidd was just reaching his athletic and skilled peak. He's far from the athlete he once was and his offensive skills are pretty much limited to layups and transition passes. Sure, he'll net you better stats than Harris, but the ball is in his control far more than it ever was with Harris. He's not near the defender that Harris is, so the Mavericks will now have issues with any team with a lightning quick PG.
I'm not saying you can't have hope. Of course you can. But i'm not just hating. I've seen the good and the bad and come playoff time, vs. tough Western Conference teams, Kidd has never fared well. Not even with talent.
Maybe Dallas is different. Maybe he is the missing piece and it just hasn't clicked vs. a tough Western Conferene playoff contender yet. Maybe everything will be fine and that switch will get struck and everyone else will be eating Kidd's dust - save for me, I'll be chin deep in crow - but as someone who's seen the best Kidd can offer, I can honestly say I don't think it's enough.
^ Sorry for the book...
I don't think Dallas is going to win a le this year, but if I could trade for any roster, I'd only put San Antonio, Detroit, Boston and LA above us, in that order. And I'm having a hard time understanding what the significance of Kidd's playoff failures in Phoenix were:
1997: the 40-win Suns lose to the 57-win Sonics
1998: the 56-win Suns featuring a nucleus of Kidd, McDyess, Cliff Robinson, Danny Manning and Kevin Johnson lose to the 56-win Spurs featuring the Twin Towers.
1999: The 27-23 Suns lose to the 35-15 Blazers.
2000: The Suns beat a Duncan-less Spurs team and they get hammered by the Shaq/Kobe juggernaut.
2001: A nucleus of Kidd, Robinson, a young Marion and a declining Penny lose to the Webber, Divac, Peja Kings, who had HCA.
Honestly, how did they underachieve? What were they supposed to do that they didn't? How can you single out Kidd as a failure for his team's collective shortcomings? The only series I think that they could've won was against Sacramento.
And as far as his Nets teams went, were they better than the Lakers and Spurs? I don't think so. It's the same kind of criticism that was leveled against KG when his teams were always seeded seventh or eighth and going up against the big dogs without HCA. What did you think was going to happen?
jason kidd played tony parker a rookie and the first three games tp was in the finals mvp talk in that series
yes that great jason kidd
no ming no dirk
no differnence
I do not think kidd is the answer
he had to be traded for after the trade was announced and not done
was harris causing problems in dallas?
did dirk need someone else to shoulder some responisblility?
kidd is not all that
he can pass better then harris but harris with this many years experience is greater then kidd at that time
The Mavs already had issues with lightning-quick PGs. Deron Williams hung 17 points and 20 assists on the Mavs in SLC. He lit up Devin for 41 points back in December. Chris Paul lit up the Mavs in Kidd's first game, but he lit up Devin for 33 points and 11 assists back in December. He lit up Devin last week in a Nets uniform for 25 points and 16 assists. Tony Parker has averaged 19 points and 6 assists against Devin since the beginning of the Western Finals two years ago, and that's about in line with what Parker does. Ask Baron Davis and Dwyane Wade if they think Devin can guard them.
We will miss Devin's speed in the open court and his ability to create a one-man fast break, but he was injury-prone and neither he nor Terry could run a half-court offense in crunchtime in the playoffs.
I don't see how those Phoenix teams underachieved. What series did they lose that they should've won?I'm not saying you can't have hope. Of course you can. But i'm not just hating. I've seen the good and the bad and come playoff time, vs. tough Western Conference teams, Kidd has never fared well. Not even with talent.
What you saw was Phoenix sent home by better teams, not just Kidd going fishing. I personally am not optimistic about our ability to go further than the second round, but we're no worse than what we were. I don't read too much into the Hornets and Rockets games. No such thing as moral victories in a West race this tight, but Dallas showed it can hang with San Antonio and LA by losing on their final possession on the road. Those games could've gone either way. That's with Kidd getting used to his new team and Josh Howard playing the worst ball of his career, due to his back contusion and the stuff going on in his personal life. And we had a 4th quarter lead after rallying from a 21-point deficit at Utah when we were playing our fourth game in five nights. Close doesn't cut it, but there's no way you can say the Mavericks can't beat the favorites. We're a darkhorse, just like Phoenix, Utah and New Orleans.Maybe Dallas is different. Maybe he is the missing piece and it just hasn't clicked vs. a tough Western Conferene playoff contender yet. Maybe everything will be fine and that switch will get struck and everyone else will be eating Kidd's dust - save for me, I'll be chin deep in crow - but as someone who's seen the best Kidd can offer, I can honestly say I don't think it's enough.
Last edited by Findog; 03-12-2008 at 12:27 AM.
Thanks. I knew that he didn't have enough talent to go all the way. His shooting is what keeps him human. I guess I can understand why he is vulnerable in the half court but this team is very good at covering this weakness. Surrounding him with great individual scorers and rebounding are the keys to covering up his weakness. Unlike his other teams in the past, this team is good in the half court. They got many options and Kidd is shooting a good percentage from 3 point range this year. Btw Phenix dropped off big time once Kidd got traded.
Harris is not better than Kidd. Whatever Kidd's faults and shortcomings, I'd rather have him than Harris. Harris can't shoot either, Harris can't get his teammates easy looks like Kidd, and his reputation as a shut-down defender is overblown. Kidd got lit up by Tony Parker, Deron Williams and Chris Paul. Well, so has Devin Harris.
His shooting isn't even THAT bad. His mid-range jumper sucks, but he's a actually a decent three-point shooter. And I'm not going by box scores, I've watched every game since he got here. He doesn't force shots either, he only takes high-percentage looks.
I never expected him to go all the way with Phoenix. Also, Kidd didn't play vs. San Antonio in 2000. He was out with a broken ankle. he returned for the Lakers' series.
It wasn't even so much that they lost, but also that they were never in the series. In 1998 they held HCA and still couldn't win. At some point excuses need to stop being made. Remember 2000 when the up-n-coming Mavs upset the heavuly favored Jazz? What about the 03-04 Nuggets over Sonics.
There's upsets all the time. Much more often back then because of the short series. In the Kidd era, they were lucky if they won a game a series. Sometimes they couldn't even manage that.
Again, I may be wrong. But I just don't think so. I'd say the Mavs have a coinflip's chance to get past the first round and then are lucky if they win two games in the second round.
I'd say the same for Phoenix, as of now, as well.
Those teams were neck and neck. There was no reason for the Jazz to be "heavily favored."
And the Warriors over the Mavs? Those are once in a decade kind of occurences.What about the 03-04 Nuggets over Sonics.
I just don't see how Kidd can be so heavily condemned for those Phoenix teams not advancing. Or for those Nets teams to lose to the Lakers and Spurs.There's upsets all the time. Much more often back then because of the short series. In the Kidd era, they were lucky if they won a game a series. Sometimes they couldn't even manage that.
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