Defensive Player Of The Year....

[BIG z]

Tim Duncan, i gurantee it....

[Obstructed_View]

Bruce Bowen will NEVER win DPOY because most people refuse to see the difference between dirty work and just dirty, and fans of players that Bowen has shut down would rather accuse him of cheating and hold a grudge than acknowledge that he just beats their superstars on the court.

The award this year will be the consolation prize for MVP, probably to Garnett.

[SPURS50]

nash should get some votes or maybe amare. there awesome! DE-FENCE = SUNS

[LilMissSPURfect]

nash should get some votes or maybe amare. there awesome! DE-FENCE = SUNS

gotta give em somthing for last year...they didn't leave the bench.....the ROHO hip checked the bench closer to the court!

[hitmanyr2k]

I just read some KG DPOY article with a paragraph basically saying Bowen doesn't win because he's perceived to be dirty.

"The Lakers’ Kobe Bryant, a fierce one-on-one defender will get his share of votes because he’s so talented and popular overall. Generally speaking, it’s difficult to single out individual defenders. Over the years, other than Moncrief, the awards have gone to great one-on-one defenders such as Michael Jordan, Gary Payton, Dennis Rodman and Ron Artest.

I always thought it was a travesty that Scottie Pippen never won a DPOY award...especially in the '94 or '95 season. He was not only a great one-on-one defender but he hustled his ass off, took charges and he had the numbers as well (2.9 steals, 1+ blocks, 8+ rebounds). And while people like to associate steals with just playing passing lanes I would say at least a third of Pippen's steals came from picking the ball-handler's pocket or using his "swim move" to steal a post entry pass. One of the greatest defenders of all time in all aspects and he has no hardware to show for it. And he never had a legit shot-blocking big man backing him up either.

[FromWayDowntown]

So what's the most Kobe has scored against Bowen and what's his average?

Just curious since you started throwing out stats TimVP...

Kobe did get 44 against the Spurs on Valentine's Day 2003 at LA, but the Spurs won the game (the 2nd to last game of that first Rodeo Road Trip, to be specific). For his career against Bowen with the Spurs, Kobe averages 27.7, but shoots about 42% from the floor to get that number.

[bobbyjoe]

Actually, the main difference is Bowen is top two perimeter defender while Battier is more like 10-15.

I'm sorry, but Bowen is just not the head and shoulders DPOY you think.

-Bowen has the huge benefit of having Tim Duncan behind him. In years past, the Spurs have also had solid interior bigmen alongside Duncan. This is a huge advantage that guys like Battier, Artest, and Reuben Patterson didnt have.

-Bowen is also a tremendous individual defensive player, but very unremarkable as a team defender, which is what I think Spurs fans often forget. He's not going to slide over off his man and draw charges or really contribute with harassing double teams or be a factor in the passing lanes with deflections.
Why? Because he is so locked into the single goal of shutting down his man, that he's pretty much oblivious to what else is going on on the court.

Team defense is just as important if not more important than individual defense. Guys like Manu Ginobili and Shane Battier may be good, but not great individual defenders but are always throwing their bodies around to draw charges, play the passing lanes, and contest drivers into the paint. Think also of Scottie Pippen. A guy like KG is a force in the paint and alters shots. His defensive value easily exceeds Bruce Bowens.

Bowen is a one-dimensional defender. Great at lockdown, but mediocre in other aspects. He's also very unremarkable as a defensive rebounder. The true all time defensive greats like Jordan, Pippen, Russell, Payton, Olajuwon, Robinson were multi-faceted defensive studs. Bowen is simply not in that class and never will be.

And while blocks and steals may be overrated to a degree, these are also plays where you are effectively stripping your opponent of possession. They also frequently lead to fastbreaks. Bowen is lackluster in these areas. He's lucky to be in a great system where interior defense is so valued that perimeter players can really get into wing players and know they have help behind. Put him in Sactown with their team defense and no way are they better defensively than with Artest...

[bobbyjoe]

I should add that Bowen's ability to guard the 1,2, or 3 position also adds a lot of value. However, the team defensive aspect still cant be discounted.

He's also not a great defender against the stronger 2 wing players (see Paul Pierce and Bonzi Wells, etc).

[bobbyjoe]

I always thought it was a travesty that Scottie Pippen never won a DPOY award...especially in the '94 or '95 season. He was not only a great one-on-one defender but he hustled his ass off, took charges and he had the numbers as well (2.9 steals, 1+ blocks, 8+ rebounds). And while people like to associate steals with just playing passing lanes I would say at least a third of Pippen's steals came from picking the ball-handler's pocket or using his "swim move" to steal a post entry pass. One of the greatest defenders of all time in all aspects and he has no hardware to show for it. And he never had a legit shot-blocking big man backing him up either.

This is exactly what I was referring to. Team defense, not just individual.

And I agree that Pippen was among the super elite defensive players of Alltime.

IIRC, he finished as runner up for league MVP in 94 and even though he never won a DPOY was always a top finisher. He played in an era with some really great defenders though, unlike now.

I mean with Jordan, Hakeem, Mutombo, Mourning, David Robinson, and Rodman all in their defensive primes it's tough to win DPOY. In today's NBA, Pip wins it yr in and yr out...

[bobbyjoe]

For this yr, it has to be KG.

[oboymeetsogirl]

Hey all you armchair coaches: do you think you know the game better than the real coaches? I'm sorry, but no way...

The coaches know a great defensive player when they see one, and they know that Bowen has been among the two or three best in the league each year for the past six, seven years. Good enough for me.

Will Bruce ever get DPOY? We all know he'd love that, but he loves championship rings a lot more. And that's what the Spurs are all about. Any idiot can say that as an individual player Bowen may not be exactly DPOY material. But who gives a damn? What he does for the team, and the results he gets (like four going on five rings) is absolutely all that matters.

[FromWayDowntown]

-Bowen is also a tremendous individual defensive player, but very unremarkable as a team defender, which is what I think Spurs fans often forget. He's not going to slide over off his man and draw charges or really contribute with harassing double teams or be a factor in the passing lanes with deflections.
Why? Because he is so locked into the single goal of shutting down his man, that he's pretty much oblivious to what else is going on on the court.

Team defense is just as important if not more important than individual defense. Guys like Manu Ginobili and Shane Battier may be good, but not great individual defenders but are always throwing their bodies around to draw charges, play the passing lanes, and contest drivers into the paint. Think also of Scottie Pippen. A guy like KG is a force in the paint and alters shots. His defensive value easily exceeds Bruce Bowens.

I'd dispute the objective truths of some of that. I'd argue that Bowen hasn't shown himself to be a great team defender because the Spurs scheme specifically doesn't call for him to act much as a team defender. That he doesn't do it doesn't mean that he can't; I think it actually would tend to weigh more heavily in his favor that he is such an exceptional individual defender that the Spurs choose to lock him in on an opponent's biggest threat and, in essence, take away one team defender who could work to negate the effectiveness of an opponent's offense.

Team defense is important, I think, to the degree that a team chooses to employ schemes that require team defensive efforts. I don't think you can hold it against Bowen that the Spurs choose to deploy him most often with a singular focus.

Bowen is a one-dimensional defender. Great at lockdown, but mediocre in other aspects. He's also very unremarkable as a defensive rebounder. The true all time defensive greats like Jordan, Pippen, Russell, Payton, Olajuwon, Robinson were multi-faceted defensive studs. Bowen is simply not in that class and never will be.

And while blocks and steals may be overrated to a degree, these are also plays where you are effectively stripping your opponent of possession. They also frequently lead to fastbreaks. Bowen is lackluster in these areas. He's lucky to be in a great system where interior defense is so valued that perimeter players can really get into wing players and know they have help behind. Put him in Sactown with their team defense and no way are they better defensively than with Artest...

I agree about the effect of blocks and steals in playing effective defense, but contesting every shot and forcing great scorers into low percentage nights strikes me as every bit as important as those measurables. By harassing shooters into uncomfortable or difficult shots that end up being misses, Bowen has an effect that is every bit as significant as a blocked shot -- nothing about blocking a shot ends a possession unless there's a rebound; the fact that most blocked shots are rebounded by the defensive team is little different from the fact that defensive teams tend to win the battle for rebounds more often than not.

Bowen's defense doesn't have the same intimidating effect that a block can have, but I do think it can have a withering effect over the course of a game and makes a gigantic difference in terms of the successes or failures of the Spurs on the defensive end.

And despite the fact that Bowen is a poor defensive rebounder, he plays for a team that leads the world in defensive rebounding percentage.

It's curious to me, though, that a guy who blocks a lot of shots or creates a lot of steals can be considered a DPOY candidate despite being a very poor on-the-ball defender, while a guy who is among the elite on-the-ball defenders to ever play the game can lose credibility in the DPOY debate because he doesn't also rebound. It's okay to be one-dimensional, I guess, if your one dimension results in some sort of measurable?

I'm not here to argue that Bowen should be (or will be) the DPOY in 2007-08; frankly, I don't think there's any chance that he will be. But I also think it's a bit absurd to suggest that he's an overrated defender because he "just" creates long nights for great scorers on a routine basis.

[T Park]

I think Pop should campaign for Bruce. I get the feeling the award would mean a lot to him (it's not like he could ever be an All-Star or anything). It's the one part of the game he truly excels at and he gets no recognition for it.

Pop should have one of his interns put together a presentation with stats and video demonstrating what Bruce brings to the table.

Uh no, Pop is not Rick Carlisle...

[SouthernFried]

Ask any perimeter player who's the best (dirtiest) defensive player in the league.

As Ahmad told Bowen..."We can ask you who the hardest guy in the league to cover is, and you say several, for different reasons.

On the other hand, all those guys you say are tough covers, have no trouble at all citing the best perimeter defender in the league."

Everyone knows who the best perimeter defender in the league is. And those who say differently...are lying.

The best perimeter defender in the league for the last 6 yrs not winning DPOY... EVER!!

...is more a statement on the league, than you-know-exactly-who-I'm-talking-about.

And so it goes.

[timvp]

I'm sorry, but Bowen is just not the head and shoulders DPOY you think.

I'm sorry, but you obviously can't read. Where did I say Bowen should win DPOY this year? The Spurs defense as a whole has been too inconsistent for anyone on the team to win DPOY.

-Bowen has the huge benefit of having Tim Duncan behind him. In years past, the Spurs have also had solid interior bigmen alongside Duncan.

The Spurs had Duncan and Robinson patrolling the paint in 2000 and 2001 but it didn't matter because their perimeter defense was a joke. Bowen gets help from playing with a dominating big but he also helps out the dominating big. Without Duncan, Bowen would still be a top of the line defender. With Duncan, Bowen and the Spurs are in the midst of one of the best defensive runs by any franchise in NBA history.

-Bowen is also a tremendous individual defensive player, but very unremarkable as a team defender, which is what I think Spurs fans often forget. He's not going to slide over off his man and draw charges or really contribute with harassing double teams or be a factor in the passing lanes with deflections.
Why? Because he is so locked into the single goal of shutting down his man, that he's pretty much oblivious to what else is going on on the court.

ROFL. This was true ... back in like 2002. Bowen's team defensive rotations are the best on the team. He'll rotate to defend any size player ... from point guard to center. The only teams he doesn't rotate is when he's specifically told not to.

Team defense is just as important if not more important than individual defense. Guys like Manu Ginobili and Shane Battier may be good, but not great individual defenders but are always throwing their bodies around to draw charges, play the passing lanes, and contest drivers into the paint.

Again, team defense means nothing if you can't stop the better perimeter players in the league. Just ask the 2000 and 2001 Spurs. Ginobili is a very good team defender, however he's allowed to be because he's always defending the other team's worst player. You can't roam as much as a player like Ginobili roams if you are guarding the other team's best player.

A guy like KG is a force in the paint and alters shots. His defensive value easily exceeds Bruce Bowens.

ROFL. How effective was KG at playing defense when he was by himself in Minnesota? The T'Wolves were never a dominant defensive team, no matter how much KG "altered shots". KG is a good defender but Pierce, Rondo and Posey are having as good or better defensive seasons.

Bowen is a one-dimensional defender. Great at lockdown, but mediocre in other aspects. He's also very unremarkable as a defensive rebounder. The true all time defensive greats like Jordan, Pippen, Russell, Payton, Olajuwon, Robinson were multi-faceted defensive studs. Bowen is simply not in that class and never will be.

So Bowen isn't a top ten defender of all-time. Who said he was? Bowen's job is to play shut down the opposing super stars. He does that as well as anyone who plays today. He's not asked to rebound ... especially considering the Spurs are the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA. There aren't exactly a lot of rebounds to spare.

And if you want to crap on Bowen's game, you better give Michael Cooper equal crappage. He didn't rebound, get steals or blocks either. Yet Cooper is regarded as one of the best defenders ever.

And while blocks and steals may be overrated to a degree, these are also plays where you are effectively stripping your opponent of possession. They also frequently lead to fastbreaks. Bowen is lackluster in these areas.

Part of Bowen's dominance is due to his ability to avoid fouls. Reaching or going for blocks in the guts of the game would put him in jeopardy of getting into foul trouble. Pop hates if Bowen reaches or goes for blocks. However, Bowen late in games gets as many game altering blocks or steals as anyone in the league because by then foul trouble isn't a concern.

He's lucky to be in a great system where interior defense is so valued that perimeter players can really get into wing players and know they have help behind.

Taking less money repeatedly to stay on the Spurs isn't really "luck". The Spurs are lucky to have him while he's lucky to be in the perfect place. There's no denying that ... but you can say that about everyone on the Spurs.

Oh and Bowen was already on the second team all-defense team before he even joined the Spurs. The Spurs didn't make Bowen what he is. The specifically signed him to fulfill the role he's currently playing. The fact that he's probably the clutchest shooter on the team and plays his best under pressure has just been a bonus.

Blaming Bowen for not doing things the Spurs don't ask him or want him to do is pretty weak. Bowen's legacy is pretty firmly intact, especially amongst Spurs fans who know what it's like not to have a dominant perimeter defender on the team.

And truthfully, you as a Laker fan should have first hand knowledge of Bowen's impact. The biggest difference between the Spurs getting destroyed by the Lakers in 2001 to the Spurs being able to close the gap and eventually end the Lakers' run in 2003 was the addition of a defender who didn't let Kobe do whatever he wanted.

[oboymeetsogirl]

I can't believe the idiotic (but also astute) comments on this post. Every coach, and every player in the league knows who the toughest perimeter defender in the league is, and he plays for the Spurs. I can't believe some of the crap I'm reading because a lot of them are coming from Spurs fans who, I presume, watch the same games that I do.

Plain and simple: without Bowen's defense against the opposing teams' best guards and forwards, I doubt if the Spurs would have won four of the last nine les. Maybe three of them, but more likely just two of them. Yes, it's about "team" defense, but it's also about the individuals who play on this defense, and who have mastered it within the team format. And for the Spurs, it's been all about Bruce and Timmy anchoring that defense...

[All Seeing Eye]

I can't believe the idiotic (but also astute) comments on this post. Every coach, and every player in the league knows who the toughest perimeter defender in the league is, and he plays for the Spurs.

Yeah but his durrrrrrrty play precludes him from winning the award.