Reply With Quote
Here's my question:
If you could pay Scola 1/3 of what Amare costs and then sign with that free cash, say a Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce type, wouldn't you do that over Amare?
Mavfan can answer too. I'd be interested in the response.
I'd take Amare over Luis Scola easily, but I'd also get a coach that would jump his ass for his terrible defense. Say what you will about Avery, but one great thing he did was insist Dirk play D. That's what Amare needs, a coach who will hold him accountable.
Here's my question:
If you could pay Scola 1/3 of what Amare costs and then sign with that free cash, say a Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce type, wouldn't you do that over Amare?
Mavfan can answer too. I'd be interested in the response.
I think Al Jefferson can D it up. He played Duncan very well when the Spurs were matched up with Minnesota.
As far as offense is concerned, I think Amare can score very efficiently, but Al Jefferson has more low post moves than any other player in the league under the age of 30.
I also think at the end of their careers Al Jefferson > Amare.
Having said that, right now, yes, Amare > Al Jefferson
Although I think you hate on Amare a little too much by saying you would take Scola first, that actually does make some sense from a GM standpoint. If I had a choice between Amare, or Scola/Pierce, give me the latter any day of the week.
Exactly. I'm not saying Luis Scola is better than Amare at basketball. I'm saying as a matter of efficiency for the dollar you will get a lot more out of him. And really, isn't that how you win in the NBA? Efficiency?
Yeah, I'd do that. I really don't want to build a team around guys like Amare if I don't have to. He's an amazing talent, but he's got the bad kind of ego, not the good kind of ego, and he strikes me as selfish. No true MVP candidate would ever whine to reporters about not winning the award. He's been in the league five years and he still hasn't bothered to work on his d. His offensive game has become more refined, he can more than just run the floor and dunk, but all that effort and hard work has gone towards maximizing his play at one end of the floor.
But I wouldn't take Scola over Amare straight up. That's going a bit too far in the hyperbole department.
Neither would I. But the difference in their salaries is what keeps it from being a straight up comparison.
Rankings:
1.Duncan
1b. Dirk
3. Garnett (how anyone, let alone Spurs fans, can argue that Garnett is better than Dirk at this point of their career is absurd. Not only did Dirk absolutely own Garnett in their only playoff encounter, but when did the Spurs ever change their defense for KG. There is a lot of overating that goes KG's way as well, A LOT!!!)
4. Brand, the healthy version
5. Bosh
6. Boozer
7. Gasol, eventhough he is more of a center.
8. Jefferson
9. Amare
10. Sheed (There is whole chapter to be written about this guy as well. Yes, it's ok to be unselfish but not to the point that you don't develop your game. And Sheed really has refused to work on his game. How come someone that is just as good as Dirk from 3, has barely any midrange shot at all, unless it's that little turnaround the right shoulder jumper from 5-8 feet. And when was the last time anyone saw him put the ball on the floor? It's a pity that with the athleticism he has, he has barely worked on his footwork since he came to the league. )
I couldn't agree more about KG. He is a very good player, but overrated. He is solid at everything, but doesn't really excel in anything, and no one is really scared of him when he gets the ball. In a close game, I am nearly ting my pants when I see Duncan with the ball. Many non-Mavs fans say the same about Dirk. But I am NEVER scared of seeing KG score or create when he has the ball.
When no one else rebounds the ball???? Shawn Marion is a career 10 rpg player. And, since joining the Suns, Shaq has averaged 10.6 rpg. 75% of Amare's rebounds are at the defensive end. That's right in line with other great rebounders, Duncan 73% of his rebounds are defensive rebounds, 76% for Dwight Howard, 77% for Marcus Camby, and 80% for Kevin Garnett. Stop with the tip drill argument. Amare is still a 9 rebound per game guy. Not elite, but more than sufficient for a big. And, newsflash, Dallas' pace, is not that much more deliberate than Phoenix' pace. Dallas' possessions per game are about 104. Phoenix at about 108 possessions per game. A mere 4 more possessions. Plus Amare plays 34.0 minutes per game. He's not a 40 mpg type of guy like Dwight Howard.
Nash is unbelievable. Again, you're criticizing Amare for having a great point guard. Nothing he can do about it.It has improved. Instead of airballing wide open 17 footers, he hits them, but still can't shoot if anyone is within 5 feet of him.
And there is more skill required to run a P&R if you have an average PG throwing passes for you. But in Nash's case, its just "set the pick and run" because he will get you the pass, or bust your ass with a 3. The issue with the P&R against Phoenix isn't about how you defend Amare. Its a "pick your poison" with Nash, because he will either thread a pass to Amare, or hit a jumper. Everyone knows that Nash is the focal point of the offense, P&R, everything for the Suns...
And, that's why he's not as good as Duncan or KG. But, similar to Nash, just because he doesn't play great defense, it doesn't mean he's not a great player.No, but you do need to at least TRY to play defense, which Amare doesn't do.
If neither plays good defense, what does it matter that Al Jefferson plays slightly more? You still said he plays defense. He doesn't.
I'm not talking about Spurs fans. Plenty of Mavs fans about Dirk and his ability to be clutch. Where was the clutch performance against Golden State? When he waited until the fourth quarter of game 6 to hit a couple three pointers? What happened in the 2006 Finals? Where were his big shots then? He has been clutch exactly once in the playoffs, in 2006 against the Spurs. If you pull up a highlight reel of Dirk, 95% of those clutch shots happened in the regular season.Some people have questioned him, plenty have defended. Of course Spurs fans here are going to question him an awful lot, but there are plenty people who defended him quite a bit as well, especially after this season, seeing that a lot of the faliures were not really his fault, but more so because of guys like Howard, Terry, and Stack ing things up at the worst possible times. All you have to do is pull up a highlight reel of Dirk, and half of it will contain major clutch shots, game winners, etc... pull up a highlight reel of Amare, and what do you have? A load of alley-oops that he caught from Steve Nash. But hey! At least they win in the ratings championships if that makes anyone feel better.
I don't hate Dirk. I like him as a player. I'm just saying he isn't that much better than Amare. And, since I don't have blind hate towards Amare and actually think he's a top 5 power forward, saying Dirk is slightly better than Amare means he's a top 4 power forward in the league, which I don't know how anyone could perceive as me hating Dirk.I really don't want to go into detail about Dirk and peoples blind haterism of him and the unfair bashing he has gone through, and prove what ing re s his haters and the people that bring up those series truly are. All I will say is this... what big-time clutch plays has Amare ever really been a part of in the playoffs?
As for Amare performing in the clutch, maybe in 2005 against the Spurs, when he averaged 37.0 ppg and 9.8 rpg on 55% shooting from the field?
Predictable.Yes. Die.
Amare is a future Hall of Famer. He will win a ring. Should have won last year but was suspended for a BS rule. Everyone knows that. This guy is awesome. He also has been injured. Anyone who thinks this guy sucks is stupid. Overated..... I seldom here his name.. , its Nash who won the MVP's not Amare. The guy is like 25. This might be the year he gets it.
For a big "great superstar" player that you make him out to be? That's nothing too special. And don't bring Dirk into the situation, as he plays a very different style than Amare, because he is often out of the perimeter, not down low, and Dirk is without question still a better defensive rebounder than Amare.
I'm not criticizing him for that. Plenty of great PF's and C's have had great PG's, but were very capable of creating for themselves. That's what I am criticizing him for.
Nash attempts to play defense and hustle. Amare doesn't. Nash > Amare.
I said it once and I'll say it again-
Amare is to Steve Nash what Kenyon Martin was to J-Kidd in 2003.
If there are no financial constraints by the owner to stay under the luxury tax, it's not even close, you take Amare. In this league, post players that can score are not easy to come by. If you overpay, overpay the big guy.
You can get a solid point guard for less than max money. And, that's what you need for a big guy like Amare. Nash doesn't even make max money. A guy like Andre Miller, who is relatively cheap by NBA point guard standards, would be sufficient. Plus, athletic swing men that can create their own shot are much easier to find than post players that can score effectively down low.
How many teams that are built around a Carmelo Anthony or Paul Pierce type and only have role players at the big positions are true le contenders? Cleveland? Maybe Denver? The best teams have low post presence. They don't have two guys like Luis Scola down low.
If you can get a top 10 low post player, you take that over a top 10 swing player that can create his own shot.
He dropped 50 on the Suns to crush their hopes, owned the Blazers in a Game 7, owned the Stockton/Malone Jazz with his tooth knocked out, and there was also the 06 Spurs series.
And in the Finals, he hit the gamewinner with Shaq right in his face in Game 5. It's not his fault Bennett Salvatore gave Wade a free trip to the line right at the end.
If you really wanna criticize Dirk for the 2006 Finals, please find a way to watch games 5 and 6 again. I implore you. Because what you will see is a player making clutch play after clutch play, only to see those plays invalidated by someone hitting freethrows at the other end. Please watch those games again, and we will talk.
Dirk was pretty clutch against the Suns as well that year. And he was pretty clutch even during the Nash-era Mavs. He was the only player of those teams who constantly produced more in the playoffs. Check out his series against Utah, Minnesota, Sacramento, and SAS as well. An absolute beast.
And I am not even counting the countless clutch shots in the reg seasons.
Which leads us to GS! He played bad ok. First one to admit it. However two things that always get lost. First, no one outside Josh showed up in that series. Stack and Terry were abysmal. Yet often they are called our 'tough' guys. Second, Avery screwed up monumentally. He went small. He also failed to produce a single strategy to take advantage of Dirk being tripple teamed at times. All of our other players were standing around, waiting for Dirk to do something. That's on a coach, to execute a game plan. Yet Dirk is always the one to shoulder the blame.
For someone that is probably the best player to not win a ring yet, he is constantly blamed. Yet other players like Nash, KG are praised for a variety of ways. Neither has done more than Dirk in his career, and he is not done yet.
A little better than Kenyon, but pretty much the same thing. Not Kenyon's fault either, but no way Kenyon should have even been an all-star and no way Amare can be considered an MVP candidate because he has Nash to feed him dunk after dunk.
This is exactly the problem with Amare. He isn't even a top 100 low post player. Deron Williams is better in the low post than Amare Stoudamire. (albeit against pgs but still.) Amare does not have one, single, post-up move. Not one.
Nash hasn't had anywhere near as many clutch moments in the playoffs as Dirk has, but somehow Nash is clutch and Dirk is a choker.
All those years in Dallas, Nash was the one getting abused in the playoffs and Dirk was the one coming up big.
Dirk has choked, yes, but to say he's had only one clutch moment in his entire playoff history is just ignorant and yet another example of JamStone not knowing what the he's talking about.
He does.
Recall the massive 50 point performance against the Suns? How about the dagger in game three against Memphis? Or the game winner the year before against Phoenix? The number of huge shots he hit against Sacramento and Portland? The shot that should have been a game winner in game 5 against the Heat, only to have it stolen away with one of the worst calls in NBA history. There are a lot of HUGE shots that Dirk hit that are very overlooked.
I never said you hate Dirk. I was just talking about Dirk haters in general.
Uhmm... because no one really guarded him, and focused on shutting guys like Steve Nash and Joe Johnson down? Averaging huge numbers also does not make you a clutch player. Performing in the clutch does.
Yup.
Never claimed Amare was a "great superstar." I have been refuting the notion that he's somewhere in the middle of the league's power forwards. And, I didn't bring Dirk into the situation. Someone else mentioned him in this conversation stating he was better than Amare. I only said that he's not that much better than Amare. And, I didn't say Dirk wasn't the better defensive rebounder. Yes, Dirk is the slightly better defensive rebounder than Amare.
You act like Amare is completely inept offensively without the pick-and-roll, which is inaccruate. That's evidenced by the improvement in his jump shot now that it forces defenses to play up on him, and while not great, he can drive past defenders. Also, he doesn't score completely from the pick-and-roll. He does post up. He's not Tim Duncan or Carlos Boozer, but he's capable. He's not great against double teams. But, he's often makes a move before the double comes.I'm not criticizing him for that. Plenty of great PF's and C's have had great PG's, but were very capable of creating for themselves. That's what I am criticizing him for.
When did Nash start attempting to play defense? Like the last 2 seasons? Amare is not great at defense. And, it's true he doesn't work that hard on it. He's getting better. Dirk didn't try at Amare's age either. Not every power forward can be Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett. Amare tries more than some of you give him credit for, but yes he's lacking at the defensive end. Probably 75% of the league doesn't really try at the defensive end.Nash attempts to play defense and hustle. Amare doesn't. Nash > Amare.
I'm tired of arguing with you, so I will now give you 1 word responses to everything to save my time, and state the simple fact that a 2 paragraph response would give, ok?
Wrong.
Weak.
Look JamStone, it's this easy. During the game with the Mavs, he was often isolated against D.George, Howard, or Kidd. The Mavs did not bring a double, and the Suns waited to see him dominate these guys.
The result: Amare sucked! He had maybe 6 points in these situations. Other than that he missed a lot of shots, and actually airballed or did not touch rim on two jumpers when he tried to shoot over those guys.
Look at the 06 playoffs, when Diaw and Tim Thomas played the exact same position on the Suns system. Their productivity was very comparable to Amare's, as they both looked like surefire AllStars. In the Suns spread it out system, with Nash feeding you bunnies, any PF with skills will look better than what he really is.
I am not saying that Amare is a bad player, but he is overrated, which is the point of the thread. He is NOT a top 5 PF let alone player in this league.
You are usually a smart observer, but you are wrong here as well as on Dirk to a certain extent.
Ok, except for any clutch shots against the Memphis Grizzlies. Those don't count. But, as you and some others have mentioned, I am apparently wrong about Dirk being clutch.
I am wrong.
Unfortunately, the most recent games and series are remembered most. With Dirk, it's the Golden State series that most people will recall.
Well, your post was addressing one of my posts, so you can see how it would appear that you're calling me a Dirk hater.I never said you hate Dirk. I was just talking about Dirk haters in general.
Right, because Tim Duncan and Gregg Popovich were content with Amare dropping 35-40 points on them. Are you foreal???? They weren't trying to guard Amare? Uh ok. Those games were clutch performances in the playoffs against a great defensive team. To me, it's not just hitting game winning shots alone that makes a player clutch. Say a player goes 2-for-17 in an elimation game including 0-for-6 in the fourth quarter but on the final possession tips in the game winning shot. It's a clutch player, but that doesn't make that player clutch. Now another player can go 12-for-15 from the field but doesn't score in the final 4 minutes. But, he gets two key defensive rebounds in the final minute, sets a screen to free open his teammate for the game winning shot, and makes a key steal or block on the opposing team on the final possession. It's not making a last second game-winner, but that player played clutch.Uhmm... because no one really guarded him, and focused on shutting guys like Steve Nash and Joe Johnson down? Averaging huge numbers also does not make you a clutch player. Performing in the clutch does.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
