One other thing I haven't seen mentioned -- during the second half warmups, Manu spent several moments talking with Will Sevening (trainer), Dr. David Schmidt (orthopaedist), and Mike Brungardt (strength and conditioning coach) and seemed to almost be convincing them that he was okay. It was odd, particularly, to see Dr. Schmidt on the floor in that moment. It made me wonder if there isn't something physically wrong with Manu.
Something has to be wrong with him. I noticed he was unwilling to drive to the rim and sacrifice his body. That kind of aggressiveness was sorely missing from all Spurs (except Parker) last night. I hope this doesn't turn out like 2006, when the Spurs were worn out from a very tough first round opponent and then met a fairly well rested 2nd round opponent.
Let's see if we can clarify this. YOU NOT SCORE, YOU NOT WIN. Udoka 25' and 2 points. Manu 27' and 8 points. Thomas 13' and 0 points. Jacques 14' and 0 points.
I agree with Supergirl
How many points did Shaq score on Oberto? 20/25?
C'mon. He finished with 16 and the most of those points he scored on Tim, not on Fab.
Do you see the play by play?
In his 25' of game, Shaq scored only 6 points on Oberto.
timvp, What's. the. big. deal?
Spurs didn't lose 'cause Oberto was guarding Shaq, Spurs loss 'cause not scored in the 4th quarter.
Tim drew Amare's fouls and it out of him. Oberto drew 2 Shaq's fouls and it out of him, sit him. Sadly, again the Spurs didn't take a adventage for the Suns without Amare or Shaq.
Well, timvp who could guard Diaw? Parker? Ginobili? Vaughn? Bruce on Nash, Tim on Amare, Oberto on Shaq.
C'mon, dude. I don't understand what you mean.
One other intangible that bothered me last night was Pop's seeming indifference to the Phoenix run in the late 3rd and early 4th. To see the Spurs go through that (and particularly some of the passivity that enabled the run) without Pop storming around and calling timeouts to get on his guys was a shock to me.
I honestly believe that statement is an oxymoron to these Spurs.
They don't care about the Regular Season AT ALL - and Pop, I believe is convinced that W/L and homecourt is irrelevant to his team.
I think Pop continues to tinker, and not leave what works out there for the too long, I guess because he doesn't want the opponent to get too used to it.
Rose colored glasses? Denial? Sure, but it keeps me from wringing my hands; and until the Spurs have lost 4 in 7; I feel they can turn it on, and beat anyone, anywhere.
BTW; Before the Utah game, what seed were the Spurs?
What seed are they now?
Before these past three games, how did the Spurs offense look for the previous 8 games?
Are we absolutely sure these games are that important?
Do the Spurs even want HCA against the Suns? With the first two at home; what happens to the Suns confidence if they steal one in SA? On the other hand, isn't the series all but over if it starts in Phoenix and SA steals the first one AGAIN?
What is the worst case scenario?
Spurs are swept out in the first round; and STILL have 4 championships.
It's lovely in my world, some of you ought to try it.
That's what I'm talking about; fits my world-view just fine.
I agree with you, to an extent. A difference for me is that Pop has always preached that they have to improve and continue to play better -- as if that is really the paramount concern. Last night, that wasn't happening and Pop just let the tape run. I can see, certainly, that allowing things to go as they did without coaching interference affords Pop and opportunity to unload on them. But that decision was pretty much as un-Poplike as any I've seen in quite a while.
Throw in my 2 cents worth here.
Anyone that thinks either Barry or Horry is going to be a savior for the Spurs this year is out of their minds. So we can just forget that.
I think Manu may actually be hurting. He doesn't have the drive, nor the legs under him on 3 pointers.
But then again, who knows. Maybe they are dumping these games on purpose, trying to catch Houston in the first round. To me, that would be the ideal matchup for the Spurs.
Or maybe they are just trying to save as much energy as possible for the playoffs, knowing they will be the older team out there.
All I know is the Spurs are in the playoffs. And that means they have as good a shot as any other team in the West, HCA advantage or not.
I know we have all seen the Spurs come to life before, after playing several bad games. Maybe it is just that Pop has it right. Get into the playoffs and get there healthy. With these games now, suddenly being near playoff level, the chance for someone to get injured is high, especially driving lanes against players like Shaq. I won't give up on the Spurs until someone knocks them out of the playoffs. Until then, I will be rooting them on.
At the end of the first quarter of both the Phoenix and Utah games, the Spurs were, relatively, in control. They then proceeded, in very Un-Spurslike fashion to melt down for the remaining three, and get blown out. By playoff teams, late in the season. Again very unspurlike.
In preseason games, in any sport, I watch the first quarter to know where "my" team is. Starter on Starter; after that, I don't care. If Pop is really looking at pretty much this entire regular season as a pre-season; then, again, that fits. He verifies in the first quarter that what he thinks is going to work, DOES work; Check in both cases. He then gets to make note of what the other coach does to adjust. If Pop saves HIS adjustment to that for the playoffs, isn't that just wise? Especially if the seeding looks better from a lower spot right about now?
Again, why everyone is so concernced about HCA is beyond me.
The Spurs were, what 7-1 or 7-2 ON THE ROAD in the playoffs last year? They haven't lost a road playoff series since 2002!
Pop has said that he must see improvement, and that that is important; but what he has said is MOST important is health entering the playoffs.
Manu playing calm, slow? Makes sense.
D'Antoni had Stoudamire in the game with under 3 minutes and a 17 point lead.
I thought Manu re-sprained his ankle on the last play of the first half...came down on someone's foot and limped off the court. Did I imagine that?
Do you see the actual game? Because I saw Shaq score six points on Oberto. In a row.
The key sequence of the game was when Amare and Shaq both went to the bench with foul trouble--and then the Suns outplayed the Spurs. Inexcusable Pop was outmastered by The Stashe. I think we have the personnel to beat this Suns team.
A healthy Brent Barry would be such a big help right now. He gives the Spurs another ball handler, can push the pace, spreads the floor for Timmy, and swings the ball to his teammates.
Overall, TimVP is correct that the big problem is pace and ball movement. The Spurs need to take it to the Suns, and Duncan--especially Duncan--should go at Amare and/or Shaq whenever they're matched-up. Amare simply can't play D, and Shaq does not have the lateral quickness and lift, although last night he showed heart and pride, to guard Duncan.
This will sound crazy, and I can't believe I'm writing it, but a couple minutes of Ian Mahinmi here and there could pose problems for the Suns. He doesn't know how to do much right now but pic/roll and dunk, but that's the perfect formula against the defenseless Stoudemire and the aging Shaq. Mahinmi can also play at a blitzing pace. Not for this season, I know, but if Ian continues to develop over the next year.
Finally, the Spurs must upgrade their back up point in the off season. Vaughn kills us the second he comes in the game. The offense just shuts down. I'd rather see Andre Barrett out there. In fact, can we still do that? When does Bobby Jones' deal expire?
Pop has underperformed this year, eh.
can someone tell me who # 42 is?
Pop hasn't figured out how to coach against these new Suns. Shaq on that team is a world of difference. Even with Shaq and Amare in foul trouble, the Spurs somehow find a way to lose the game. That's pitiful.
Manu looked horrible. I agree with timvp, Duncan looks like a sissy out there at times and its shameful.
The Spurs look horrible on offense right now and as of late. The Spurs coaching staff need to figure out how to get the offense flowing again. Barry needs to comeback or the Spurs need to go out and sign Spree.
#42 is Bobby Jones.
Give credit to where it is due. The Suns outplayed and were better than the Spurs last night. Shaq is a big difference maker on that team. He has given that team a ton of confidence.
I still think the Spurs can take them in a seven game series.
There's gotta be some level of CIA going on... Pop just isn't this ty of a coach. There's no other explanation unless he is going senile.
Don't forget being outcoached as well..
The first half was a complete turnaround to the second. The Spurs looked like they came ready to play. The defense was holding strong, even when Amare went off. On offense Tim and Tony were scoring with ease. When pop went smal-ball the team really began to struggle. I agree that Pop's choice for Diaw was wrong. He too big to have UDoka playing on him. That move was costly.
The Spurs faded big time in the second half. The offense dried up and defense looked tired. Team play went out the door and too many shots were forced. The Suns upped the tempo, the Spurs couldn't keep. They also didn't counter the Sun's zone d too well. Spacing wasn't well placed . Aside from Fin, it didn't help that no one could hit a 3 to break it open. Another big factor was Shaq. His D on Tim was really effective and offense the bigs had no asnwer for him. When he got into the paint, it was like seeing the Shaq of old. The guy just rolled to basket and dominated with his jump hook.
If not for Tony, the Spurs would of have been in trouble a lot earlier. Hard to fault him at all. He set the tone on offense and showed no fear in the paint . In the second half the Suns adjusted to his attacking and he forced a few but like others i think that had more to do with him being tired. Pop's subs pattern on Tony for the whole game didn't make sense. It was odd considering for this game he was the spur's best scoring option.
Manu was a shadow of his former self on offense. He looked hesitent and at times seemed lost like he was a rookie just starting out. When he did shoot they were usually trashy jumpers. The aggression just wasn't there. I hope his poor game of late has more to do with him trying to pace himself til the play-offs start than lacking energy and confidence excuse. This was a big game for sure , still the big picture is the play-offs.
I keep hearing all this talk about how the Spurs simply DO NOT CARE about the regular season at all. I'm sure that's true to an extent. However, I believe that is more of a fallacy than anything - especially when you take into account what compe ors Manu and Tim are.
What I cannot accept is how an experienced, championship-caliber team, like the Spurs, can come out on their own homecourt and throw down such an awful showing on both ends of the court in the 2nd half - especially against a horrific defensive team like the Suns. Duncan DID look like a big sissy out there. Vaughn is crushing the team's offense. Manu looks tired, hurt, or both. Tony seemingly ran out of gas. Finley looks bashful. Udoka appeared to press himself too much.
How can this happen with 2 days of rest? Recall the last time the Spurs lost to the Suns in PHX, they were operating off 3 days rest. Meanwhile, the Suns had played the night before. Yet it was the Spurs who came out sluggish and lethargic and appeared to be the team on the 2nd night of a B2B. Their performance in that game mirrored this one.
Also, let's not forget this is the second blowout loss in their last 3 games versus another potential playoff opponent. If this team is truly conserving their energy and taking these games lightly, they've got NO shot at defending their le. The so-called "flipping the switch" philosophy is a flawed one that catches up with many teams ('03 Fakers) that have had championship success.
This team looks pitiful on offense and, while they may play the best defense in the Western Conference, they are not as good defensively as they were last year. It's very obvious. Also, I agree completely with the assertion that Barry and Horry should not be counted on for playoff contributions. I don't see it happening. One thing is for sure, the next several weeks will determine whether age has really caught up with this team, as the recent losses to both Utah and Phx have seemed to indicate.
Last edited by SenorSpur; 04-10-2008 at 10:09 AM.
Im sure the spurs know what there doing . There Not going to go into overdrive until its playoff time . Im sure energy is being saved and being healthy is a must . Come playoff time its a different ball-game .
I've decided that Pop purposely left KT off Shaq because he will be on him in the playoffs - I knew it was CIA! Please?
That's the most surprising thing of all to me this season. Pop did the same thing in the Jazz game. Normally Pop would be storming about defense and bad rotations and being selfish on offense. Instead his answers and belief on offense really seem to be just that "Oh we couldn't get the ball in the hole, simple as that." He thinks its just a matter of Spurs missing shots. And he hasn't been preaching defense and rotations nearly enough.
I think their post game quotes and lack of anger upset me more...
Spurs Head Coach Gregg Popovich
On the game - “Phoenix played well, they did a great job, and they beat us good.”
On what happened in the fourth quarter - “We only scored 11 points and it was only a four point game going into the fourth quarter. We just didn’t score.”
On when asked if it was just a matter of missing shoots in the fourth - “It’s never just one thing. It’s a little bit of the defense, it’s a little bit of us maybe not playing well, not shooting well, but they get credit for their defense also.”
On seeing if the Suns have gelled with O’Neal - “Absolutely, they’ve been playing very well.”
On if fouls had anything to do with the loss - “Fouls had nothing to do with us getting beat. They played well and beat us good, there’s no excess.”
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Manu Ginobili
On their offensive struggles - “It’s turning into a big concern because that’s three games that we have really struggled offensively. I think defensively we were pretty good in the last couple games. We made way too many mistakes down the stretch (tonight), but now the main concern is offensively we’re not sharp enough. We are not making shots. We’re too slow. We have to work on that.”
On fatigue being a factor - “We haven’t been playing that well in the fourth quarter, but it’s not like we’ve been playing that well in the first three quarters either. It’s not that we scored 80 in the first three and then 10 in the fourth, we’re scoring 70 points (total). That’s not enough to beat a great team like Phoenix…or Utah.
“I think we are just in a slump. We are not playing confidently. We are playing slow. I don’t feel tired. I doubt it’s a conditioning thing.”
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Tim Duncan
On the game - “I thought we moved the ball well, especially there in the first half. Like I said…a lot of credit to Phoenix…their defense was solid. They had a good game plan and there wasn’t a lot of rotation from them. We played a lot of one-on-one basketball and on a nightly basis we do pretty good by that…tonight we didn’t.
On the fourth quarter - “Defense was solid enough, we just couldn’t sustain miss after miss. A lot of that falls on me…I got a lot of shots in the fourth quarter…what I felt were good looks and they just didn’t go down for me. Credit to Phoenix for pushing it right back at us and scoring the ball. We just gotta find a way for something to go down in the fourth.”
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Suns Head Coach Mike D’Antoni
On the game - “Well you know, I think you see what Shaq does for us, and our defense stiffened up in the second half. It was a great win but it still doesn’t mean a whole lot except we are a bit closer to them in the standings and we’ll move on, and I’m sure they’ll regroup and maybe we’ll meet some place down the road. But we’re pretty happy with what happened tonight.”
On playing without Amare - “With Shaq we just have another option in there, and Shaq really turned it on. They had six second chance points all game and usually they have about 25. Boris did a great job, we went small, and were able to defend them and do a lot of switching so everything seemed to work tonight. Its just one of those days where we played well, and our different guys were really contributing.”
On how Shaq changes things - “Well you know he’s 7’2’’ and 325 or whatever, nobody’s knocking him off, he’s right there in your face its tough all night. I don’t want to get ahead of ourselves we played well and I think right now for San Antonio it’s a little funk about scoring and its just not against us, they haven’t scored in the last two or three games, so they’ll come out of it. But you see how we can go into him and he scores or they might have to start doubling him, and he turned it on tonight he was about the best he has looked.”
On the team defense - “We should be good defensively, we’ve got Raja Bell, first team all NBA defensively, and Grant Hill can defend, and we’ve got length, and we’ve just got a lot of different answers that we haven’t had in the past, but its being anchored now by Shaq, and that’s kind of giving everybody a little bit more freedom to get up on their man and play a little bit harder on the perimeter knowing that you’ve got a guy in the back that you know you cant shoot over.”
On a potential playoff meeting - “They’re too good for that, the same as us, you cannot win a game because some guys are a little off, some guys are this and that, and they’re too smart and too good, and Pop’s too good to even think that ‘oh ya we’ve got them psychologically’ its just not going to happen. If we do meet it’ll be a battle, and we’re looking forward to it, and hopefully we meet in the last round, I’d hate to see them right in the first round, but you know we’ll see how it goes.”
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Shaquille O’Neal
On the game - “We just wanted to play through everything and suck it up in the fourth quarter. Amare along with myself were in foul trouble so the rest of the guys did a great job on playing defense and we were able to come in a hostile building and get a win.”
On how far the team has to go to be where they want to be - “Unless you’re on a team that has been there a lot, like the Spurs, when you put together a new team you never know what it takes to get there unless you’re there and you’re winning. Of course we have all the pieces on paper but we really don’t know until we go through all our trials and tribulations.”
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Grant Hill
On the difference between the game before and the game now with Shaq - “Before with Duncan, we had to double and scramble as he is one of the best passers when doubled. And with Shaq, he has done a very good job with Duncan as he can guard him straight up and Tim’s such a great player that sometimes he gave Shaq a match, so hopefully if we play them again Shaq can continue to guard him the same way.”
On guarding Tony Parker - “Well he definitely gets going, but we just try to go big on him, use our length and we did it the last time we played him and we had success then like we had success tonight. We’re getting there and I think it was great this season to win three out of four games against them.”
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Boris Diaw
On the game - “I thought we really kept the ball down defensively. We were really disciplined and we really forced them to our bigs and we didn’t give away too many jump shots and were able to rebound the ball which is good against a team like San Antonio. They are so big and so good on the defensive glass that you don’t want them to get two or three looks at it because they have really good offensive players, but I think we did well tonight.”
On relating to Bruce Bowen - “Due to the fact that we both are given assignments of guarding tough players, I can relate to Bruce. I think me and Bruce go about it two different ways though.”
Duncan needs to go back and watch tape of his performance in the 2003 WCSF versus the Fakers. He needs to riddle Shaq with his footwork, upfakes and his ambidextrous shooting skills inside, while mixing in his bank shot outside. He can easily get Shaq or anyone else into foul trouble if he's in the right frame of mind.
I agree with you. It appeared that Tim was not mentally into this game. Therefore, it showed up by way of his passive approach at both ends. He became far too predicitable and timid.
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