Kobe pulls a Shaq. Speaks on Kwame and Smush!

[JMarkJohns]

Nash has 3 All Stars

Context, please... Nash has one All-Star, two former All-Stars, each having failed to play up to All-Star levels for at least two seasons, and in Hill's case, like eight.

As for 05-06, people discredit that season way too much. it was an astonishing feat what Nash was able to do with that group.

As many have said already, Marion was his lone constant. He was a great, great constant that year, easily deserving the 3rd-team All-NBA selection, and he should have been named to the All-Defensive team as well.

However, from there you have a rag-tag band of benchwarmers, scrubs and journeymen constructing the remainder of the rotation.

Jim Jackson was shipped out early, so I won't even include him.

Raja Bell was playing for his fourth team in six seasons. Yes, he was coming off a career year with Utah, but his career bests were 12 ppg, 3 rpg, 1.5 apg. He was being brought in to be the backup SG. When JJ left, he was pressed into starting.

Kurt Thomas was a great addition, but he was out down the stretch. Sure, he factored into the 50 wins, but missing 30 games is a huge blow to a team already without its best frontcourt player.

Tim Thomas was a late add, and he was so valuable to the other teams in the NBA, he was playing for his fourth team in two seasons, being traded three times and waived without ever suiting up for the team just prior to signing with Phoenix. Sure, he [t]turned out to be a fantastic addition[/i], but at the time it was hardly a sure thing. What has he done without Nash? About half of what he did with.

James Jones was a career benchwarmer in Indiana. He had value to Phoenix because he could play either forward position, and could shoot from range. Beyond that, he held little value. Nash really, really helped him before a bad ankle injury effectively ended his season. Yeah, he returned, but the touch on the perimeter jumpers was never regained that season.

Boris Diaw was a career benchwarmer in Atlanta. He had some value to Phoenix because he was a young prospect with good size and perimeter skills, but he was so raw he could barely crack the rotation on one of the worst teams in the League.

Leandro Barbosa, at this point, was little more than a waste. D'Antoni failed to develop him, benched him and shattered his confidence. Yes, he had talent, but D'Antoni seemed incapable of maximizing it. it was Mike's brother, Dan, who worked with Leandro to improve his ball-handling, jumpshot and ability around the hoop. in 04-05 he'd actually regressed in most categories from his rookie year. Entering 05-06, he was averaging just 7 ppg, 2 apg on 46% FG, 38% 3FG in 20 minutes for his career. Hardly anything to exalt.

Eddie House was both a benchwarmer and journeyman. He didn't even hold value to his teams as a benchwarmer. He was on his sixth team in two years. His averages during this stretch varied greatly per team, but came out to around 6 ppg in 16 minutes.

You tell me your rotation includes three career benchwarmers, two career journey man, one decent, but slow and undersized center, one recently waiver signee, Marion and Nash and you are going to tell me that team wins 54 games and advances to game six of the Conference Finals?

I don't think so. The only player to improve of that group since leaving is Thomas, but that's more about the minutes played in Phoenix (18 mpg) vs. minutes played in Seattle (24 mpg) than anything.

I don't care if you dislike Nash, say he's overrated, ad what not so long as you back it up, but there's ZERO way any poster here can with regard to that season, unless they were so stupid at the time as to predict that team to win 50 games and advance far in the playoffs, and given that most bashing Nash after the fact are doing it because he's Steve Nash and his team was the Suns, I doubt anyone now bashing did anything but bash back then, probably saying that team couldn't even make the playoffs, let along win 54 games, the Pacific Division and two playoff series with the 6-7, 225 pound Shawn Marion, the 6-8, 220 pound Boris Diaw, the 6-8, 235 pound Tim Thomas and the 6-8, 230 pound James Jones as their frontcourt rotation.

As for Kobe, I agree with everything he says, and feel athletes get persecuted too often for telling the hard truth. Kobe's teams did suck. Smush Parker was terrible and Kwame Brown is an apathetic idiot. Shaq was playing one of his final seasons on a team constructed of morons and never weres. Star players have the right to say whether or not a player was a good fit, or even a good player.

Kobe's Lakers should have won the series vs. Phoenix in 2005-06. Blame can be laid on Kobe for failing to lead when leadership was required, and for getting pissy towards the end of game six, shooting far too much, then getting even by hardly shooting in game seven.

But overall, I'd agree that the Lakers were 6-to-8 seed teams as far as talent went. Those type of teams don't win for a reason.

[Allanon]

Context, please... Nash has one All-Star, two former All-Stars, each having failed to play up to All-Star levels for at least two seasons, and in Hill's case, like eight.

One All Star and 2 Former All-Stars compared to Kobe's 0 All Stars and 0 Former All Stars. We're comparing different seasons there but let's say this year, it's still 1 Former All Star by your counting.

Shaq as a former All Star is at least a 15-10 guy no matter what year. This is the same former All Star who won a championship 2 years ago. Even 5 years from now, he's better than Kwame Brown.

Grant Hill is another case of Former All Star who used to be a Superstar. Even right now, I would pick Grant HIll over Smush Parker.

The Phoenix bench, although not great, still looked like All-Stars compared to the Laker bench.

Nash had a great season and earned his first MVP for sure, Kobe also did great that season with less of a team.

Just because Nash had a great season, it doesn't mean Kobe didn't and vice versa. We're just comparing talent levels from previous years and Nash has always had more talent around him than Kobe post Shaq.

[balli]

Yeah, a lot of those players did suck before Nash.

If you really think Nash's MVP(s) were a joke, then thats your opinion. I don't really care.

You were talking about Raja Bell and Boris Diaw. Raja Bell was a very good player before Phoenix signed him, otherwise they would not have given him 50 million. You don't give guys 50 million if they sucked on their previous team. Diaw's strengths that season were things Nash couldn't have influenced (ie; rebounding and assists). Unless of course you feel that Diaw's rebounds and assists were actually Nash's, but the scoring table accidently gave them to Diaw.

And yes I think giving the MVP to one of the worst defensive guards in the league for doing the same things many other points guards had done, many other times, was a joke. Whether you care or not.

Pretty much Gino, you are clueless. You said Bell didn't start before Pho. Yes he did. You said Diaw couldn't get off the bench in ATL, well yes he did. (Although he had a rough time because they tried to make him play point.) I'm not going to point out all of your innacuracies, but there have been more than a few things you've said in this thread which make me think you don't even begin to have a clue about the game of basketball.

[Gino]

You were talking about Raja Bell and Boris Diaw. Raja Bell was a very good player before Phoenix signed him, otherwise they would not have given him 50 million. You don't give guys 50 million if they sucked on their previous team. Diaw's strengths that season were things Nash couldn't have influenced (ie; rebounding and assists). Unless of course you feel that Diaw's rebounds and assists were actually Nash's, but the scoring table accidently gave them to Diaw.

And yes I think giving the MVP to one of the worst defensive guards in the league for doing the same things many other points guards had done, many other times, was a joke. Whether you care or not.

Pretty much Gino, you are clueless. You said Bell didn't start before Pho. Yes he did. You said Diaw couldn't get off the bench in ATL, well yes he did. (Although he had a rough time because they tried to make him play point.) I'm not going to point out all of your innacuracies, but there have been more than a few things you've said in this thread which make me think you don't even begin to have a clue about the game of basketball.

Wow...its not every day youre given a gift like this post.

Since youre claiming how innacuarte I am, please tell me which team on this planet gave Raja Bell 50 million dollars? I know thats not a typo since you posted it twice, either.

As for the rest of your garbage, I don't need to say anything since JMarks just did it for me.

Also, I didn't say Bell never started for the Jazz, I said he was a back up pg for the Jazz. Which he was (unless you want to argue that starting 30 something games for the Jazz in TWO seasons made him starter).

[JMarkJohns]

Raja Bell got 30 million, not 50 million. He didn't even get the entire MLE (they ere saving a portion to offer Finley). And Diaw's strengths stemmed LARGELY from his roll to Nash's pick. One of the reasons he hasn't been as statistically productive is his time within the pic-n-roll has been cut in half.

Balli, you're so hung up on the details you're failing to see the big picture. Sure, Bell started, but he didn't play starters minutes (under 30 per each season in Utah) and was hardly a main cog on offense. They thought so little of him they let him walk for a very reasonable rate. I'm sure they'd love to have him now. Diaw was a benchwarmer who failed to produce at any position in Atlanta, but you are correct, most of the time he was playing point. What's funny is with a simple change of scenery, he becomes a very good passer, but as a forward.

That team was constructed of capable journeymen, career benchwarmers and benchfodder. There's nothing that can be said to disprove that. Save for Nash, Marion and Thomas, who missed the most important part of the season with injury, there wasn't a proven, consistent starter in the bunch. Lots of talent, but Nash made it all work.

I think it's fair to argue his first MVP, but the second one was well deserved, IMO. Sure, other PGs had done similar, but each MVP is for that specific player, for that specific team in that specific year. History has no bearing, nor should it.

[DazedAndConfused]

Wow...its not every day youre given a gift like this post.

Since youre claiming how innacuarte I am, please tell me which team on this planet gave Raja Bell 50 million dollars? I know thats not a typo since you posted it twice, either.

As for the rest of your garbage, I don't need to say anything since JMarks just did it for me.

Also, I didn't say Bell never started for the Jazz, I said he was a back up pg for the Jazz. Which he was (unless you want to argue that starting 30 something games for the Jazz in TWO seasons made him starter).

Doesn't change the fact that you don't know jack about what you are talking about, especially when it pertains to the Lakers. I still do not understand why someone who clearly hasn't paid much attention or watched the Lakers the last 3 seasons continues to post in these threads as if he knows more than Laker fans themselves.

And I love how you conveniently don't respond to the numerous posts that refute just about every ridiculous claim you make about Kobe and the Lakers.

[balli]

Wow...its not every day youre given a gift like this post.

Since youre claiming how innacuarte I am, please tell me which team on this planet gave Raja Bell 50 million dollars? I know thats not a typo since you posted it twice, either.

As for the rest of your garbage, I don't need to say anything since JMarks just did it for me.

Also, I didn't say Bell never started for the Jazz, I said he was a back up pg for the Jazz. Which he was (unless you want to argue that starting 30 something games for the Jazz in TWO seasons made him starter).

Sorry. I am a pothead and there's a lot of strands in ol' Dude'rs head. You don't give guys 25 million for sucking on their former team. And he was not our backup PG. Ever. We had Raul Lopez backing up Arroyo. And by the time he went to phoenix he was our starting SG. Before that he was getting starters minutes exclusively as our SG. Maybe he didn't start all those games, but by the end he did and when he wasn't starting he was playing starters minutes. Maybe you'd call Manu a bench talent too.

[balli]

Raja Bell got 30 million, not 50 million. He didn't even get the entire MLE (they ere saving a portion to offer Finley). And Diaw's strengths stemmed LARGELY from his roll to Nash's pick. One of the reasons he hasn't been as statistically productive is his time within the pic-n-roll has been cut in half.

Balli, you're so hung up on the details you're failing to see the big picture. Sure, Bell started, but he didn't play starters minutes (under 30 per each season in Utah) and was hardly a main cog on offense. They thought so little of him they let him walk for a very reasonable rate. I'm sure they'd love to have him now. Diaw was a benchwarmer who failed to produce at any position in Atlanta, but you are correct, most of the time he was playing point. What's funny is with a simple change of scenery, he becomes a very good passer, but as a forward.

I'd call about 30 mpg "starters minutes" and he was as much a cog on offense as a team comprised of Arroyo, AK, Bell, Jarron Collins and whoever else would allow. What were we supposed to do, turn a team like that into the Raja Bell show? Nah, we had to work together.

And Raja Bell signed with Phoenix at 12 midnight the first day of the signing period. We loved him and everyone flipped when he left. We were on the record as saying we'd match any offer he got, but when a guy leaves at 12 midnight on the first day, there's not much we could do.

[DazedAndConfused]

I like how Laker fans want to pretend the only players they had on their team were Smush and Kwame.

What about Odom? What about Caron Butler?

Radmanovic, Walton, Vujacic, Farmar, Turiaf and BYNUM were all on the team last year, weren't they?

Stupidity at its best. This is the classic example of an argument someone would make if they just glanced at the Laker roster sheet of the last 3 years. Clearly you weren't watching the Lakers. Though I don't know what you were watching since the Celtics sucked all kinds of donkey as well.

[Gino]

Sorry. I am a pothead and there's a lot of strands in ol' Dude'rs head. You don't give guys 25 million for sucking on their former team. And he was not our backup PG. Ever. We had Raul Lopez backing up Arroyo. And by the time he went to phoenix he was our starting SG. Before that he was getting starters minutes exclusively as our SG. Maybe he didn't start all those games, but by the end he did and he wasn't starting he was playing starters minutes. Maybe you'd call Manu a bench talent too.

No, because Manu plays a lot more minutes than Raja Bell played for the Jazz.

I can't believe it. You DO want to argue that starting 30+ games in two seasons is a "starter".

This is kind of like how D&C believes that playing 37 minutes is "sitting out for most of the game".

C'mon now. Are you the same person?

[Gino]

I'd call about 30 mpg "starters minutes" and he was as much a cog on offense as a team comprised of Arroyo, AK, Bell, Jarron Collins and whoever else would allow. What were we supposed to do, turn a team like that into the Raja Bell show? Nah, we had to work together.

And Raja Bell signed with Phoenix at 12 midnight the first day of the signing period. We loved him and everyone flipped when he left. We were on the record as saying we'd match any offer he got, but when a guy leaves at 12 midnight on the first day, there's not much we could do.

I didn't see the fifty million in there.......what was that about my innacuracy?

[Gino]

Raja Bell got 30 million, not 50 million. He didn't even get the entire MLE (they ere saving a portion to offer Finley). And Diaw's strengths stemmed LARGELY from his roll to Nash's pick. One of the reasons he hasn't been as statistically productive is his time within the pic-n-roll has been cut in half.

Balli, you're so hung up on the details you're failing to see the big picture. Sure, Bell started, but he didn't play starters minutes (under 30 per each season in Utah) and was hardly a main cog on offense. They thought so little of him they let him walk for a very reasonable rate. I'm sure they'd love to have him now. Diaw was a benchwarmer who failed to produce at any position in Atlanta, but you are correct, most of the time he was playing point. What's funny is with a simple change of scenery, he becomes a very good passer, but as a forward.

That team was constructed of capable journeymen, career benchwarmers and benchfodder. There's nothing that can be said to disprove that. Save for Nash, Marion and Thomas, who missed the most important part of the season with injury, there wasn't a proven, consistent starter in the bunch. Lots of talent, but Nash made it all work.

I think it's fair to argue his first MVP, but the second one was well deserved, IMO. Sure, other PGs had done similar, but each MVP is for that specific player, for that specific team in that specific year. History has no bearing, nor should it.

Nice post.

[balli]

I didn't see the fifty million in there.......what was that about my innacuracy?

Why not read the thread before you post? Sorry, I forgot some numbers. You never knew anything.

Sorry. I am a pothead and there's a lot of strands in ol' Dude'rs head. You don't give guys 25 million for sucking on their former team. And he was not our backup PG. Ever. We had Raul Lopez backing up Arroyo. And by the time he went to phoenix he was our starting SG. Before that he was getting starters minutes exclusively as our SG. Maybe he didn't start all those games, but by the end he did and when he wasn't starting he was playing starters minutes. Maybe you'd call Manu a bench talent too.

[Gino]

Why not read the thread before you post? Sorry, I forgot some numbers. You never knew anything.

Oh I read it, I just still think its hilarious.

btw - When did I say that Bell was Utah's backup pg?

[balli]

btw - When did I say that Bell was Utah's backup pg?

Also, I didn't say Bell never started for the Jazz, I said he was a back up pg for the Jazz. Which he was

[Gino]

You got me there. That WAS a typo.

[Gino]

Here's what I originally said:

And Boris Diaw wasn't getting playing time on the worst team in the NBA before playing with Nash. Raja Bell was a backup guard for the Jazz.

[TheMACHINE]

WOW..i cant believe you guys are comparing the past Lakers teams with the Phoenix Suns.

Lakers -Crap.
Suns - crazy talented. Simple as that.

When Kwame was on the floor, it was pretty much 4 vs 6. He practically handed over the ball to the the opposing team.

[Matchman]

so lakers fans remember to give McGrady an excuse if he didnt make it out of the first round, ok?

[DazedAndConfused]

I like how Laker fans want to pretend the only players they had on their team were Smush and Kwame.

What about Odom? What about Caron Butler?

Radmanovic, Walton, Vujacic, Farmar, Turiaf and BYNUM were all on the team last year, weren't they?

Lamar Odom - Not a reliable #2 option. Never has or will be.

Caron Butler - Did not become an All-Star until he left LA. If you watched the Lakers you'd know he just wasn't a good fit in the triangle offense alongside Kobe.

Radmanovic - Was lost in the triangle his 1st year and injured his hand while snowboarding during the All-Star break. Never got into a rhythm.

Turiaf - Was a solid BACKUP to Kwame, but still a little green and coming off heart surgery.

Vujacic - Did not make the jump from a good practice shooter to a gametime shooter until this year.

Bynum - Still just a 19 year old kid, way too raw to be effective. Didn't make a huge leap until this season.

Smush, Kwame, Walton - Do I have to say anymore about these 3?

We are waiting for your rebuttal to this lovely gem. Oh I get it, you don't want to play anymore when your dumbass gets exposed right?

[GaryJohnston]

Lamar Odom - Not a reliable #2 option. Never has or will be.

Caron Butler - Did not become an All-Star until he left LA. If you watched the Lakers you'd know he just wasn't a good fit in the triangle offense alongside Kobe.

Radmanovic - Was lost in the triangle his 1st year and injured his hand while snowboarding during the All-Star break. Never got into a rhythm.

Turiaf - Was a solid BACKUP to Kwame, but still a little green and coming off heart surgery.

Vujacic - Did not make the jump from a good practice shooter to a gametime shooter until this year.

Bynum - Still just a 19 year old kid, way too raw to be effective. Didn't make a huge leap until this season.

Smush, Kwame, Walton - Do I have to say anymore about these 3?

But I thought Kobe made all these guys good this past season????

You made a good argument in proving my earlier point that the Lakers success is more attributed to them being a collection of good players, than a team with a superstar who has carried them on his back and made them better.

[DazedAndConfused]

^Why can't it be both? Kobe has talent around him AND he has taken them to the next level. The same can be said of Chris Paul, unless you think David West, Tyson Chandler, and Peja are scrubs.

[Allanon]

But I thought Kobe made all these guys good this past season????

You made a good argument in proving my earlier point that the Lakers success is more attributed to them being a collection of good players, than a team with a superstar who has carried them on his back and made them better.

Hahah, definitely the haters. Any team that gets better can be said a) star makes them better or b) players got better by themselves

1) If Kobe's teammates don't do well, it's because Kobe's selfish
2) If Kobe's teammates do well, it's because they got better by themselves

Just great guys

[J Zone]

Why persecute a guy for stating facts?

Because they're a bunch of assholes, that's why.

[Gino]

Lamar Odom - Not a reliable #2 option. Never has or will be.

Caron Butler - Did not become an All-Star until he left LA. If you watched the Lakers you'd know he just wasn't a good fit in the triangle offense alongside Kobe.

Radmanovic - Was lost in the triangle his 1st year and injured his hand while snowboarding during the All-Star break. Never got into a rhythm.

Turiaf - Was a solid BACKUP to Kwame, but still a little green and coming off heart surgery.

Vujacic - Did not make the jump from a good practice shooter to a gametime shooter until this year.

Bynum - Still just a 19 year old kid, way too raw to be effective. Didn't make a huge leap until this season.

Smush, Kwame, Walton - Do I have to say anymore about these 3?

We are waiting for your rebuttal to this lovely gem. Oh I get it, you don't want to play anymore when your dumbass gets exposed right?

Ah yes. The proverbial "you haven't responded to my post fast enough so I assume that you admit defeat".

Its an interesting predicament Laker fans have in this argument. Claiming that all of Kobe's teammates were crap last year while also claiming that those same crap players are great this year!

Also interesting that any and all player regression/struggles have been attributed to "the triangle" (Odom, Butler, Radman etc) while any player who improves owes credit to Kobe Byrant. Tell that to Caron Butler.

The fact is that in 2005, the Lakers had Odom, Butler, Mihm, Kobe, Deven George and Walton and couldn't even make the playoffs (and the west wasn't nearly as good as it is now). They dramatically underachieved down the stretch where they lost something like 19 of their last 21.

In 2006, the Lakers went up against an extremely thin Phoenix team and couldn't finish them off after having a 3-1 series lead. Kobe quits in game seven when he puts up only one shot in the second half after averaging twenty seven ATTEMPTS throughout the season.

In 2007, the Lakers started out strong (26-13 IIRC), went through some mid-season injuries and mailed in the rest of the season. Typical Kobe.

THe Lakers have flat out UNDERACHIEVED that past three seasons. And how does Kobe, the leader, handle the situation? He asks to be traded!!