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You didn't answer the question.
I never said that polygamy wasn't wrong...in fact I've pointed out that polygamy is a sure means to a quick end.....my point is that TX has completely screwed up this investigation from day one...
You didn't answer the question.
Of course some bad things have happened, that's why the church leader is sitting in jail today, but bad things happened in Catholic Churches too and the FEDS didn't raid churches, seize their property and remove all children from attending church even were the 'bad things' happened...
Feds?
http://www.kxan.com/global/story.asp?s=8365745
Court Grants Appeal by FLDS Mothers
Posted: May 22, 2008 12:17 PM CDT
AUSTIN, Texas (KXAN) -- The Third Court of Appeals has ruled that Child Protective Services did not have the right to remove children from the Yearning for Zion ranch last month.
The ruling comes as a result of a do ent filed by Texas RioGrande Legal Aid last month. The TRLA is the largest provider of legal aid in Texas, on behalf of 48 FLDS mothers that TRLA is representing in their child custody cases.
"The way that the courts have ignored the legal rights of these mothers is ridiculous," said TRLA attorney Julie Balovich. "It was about time a court stood up and said that was has been happening to these families is wrong."
In the decision, the Court ruled that CPS failed to provide any evidence that the children were in imminent danger and acted hastily in removing them from their families. According to the Court, "The existence of the FLDS belief system as described by the Department's witnesses, by itself, does not put children of FLDS parents in physical danger."
TRLA will be holding a press conference in front of the courthouse in San Angelo Thursday at 1:30 p.m. regarding this issue.
Oh snap. NBADan pwned.
It hurts me to have typed that btw.
I hurts me to have you admit that....but way to man up Manny...
Now what about the rest of you?
well, i have determined that texas appears to be the whacknut religious manufacturing capitol of the world.
maybe now hagee and the nuclear baby guy can hook up.
I expected an appeal since the action was pretty novel in the first place, and I'm not surprised at the result. I'm sure there will be more.
What exactly does this change for the kids?
I haven't read much of this thread, but from the get go I didn't like the way the state approached this case. Its easy to get away with when everyone hates the accused.
So if the CPS takes your kids, then you have to have to pretty much prove yourself to be a capable parent to get them back? Is that how it works?
The CPS is pretty screwed up.
http://www.childprotectionreform.org...stimonials.htm
unless your mom is brittany spears.
Actually, I think the 3rd Court's decision yesterday says precisely the opposite. It says that if CPS takes your kids and you challenge that decision, the burden of proof is on CPS and it better have damned good evidence to support its decision or it will be undone.
But not everybody who deals with the CPS has their case discussed in the national spotlight and gets interviewed by Larry King.
This case involving a polygamist cult is very much an anamoly; there are many CPS horror stories that we never hear about.
My question is this. How long before the Waco massacre has Texas been a fascist state?
Yes, too many. A local talk show host, Victoria Taft, regulary exposes them here in Portland.
A Portland radio host regularly exposes Texas child welfare abuses?
Whatever. In this particular case, I'm all for erring on the side of caution. I simply don't like pedophiles. If you do, that's your business.
Will you ever stop jumping to unfounded conclusions?
We have a "Child Protective Service" here in Oregon too... Our local ones commit such atrocities too, they just aren't so large to receive national attention like this Texas case has. The problem partially lies in people with good intent violating the law to enforce the law as they see fit!
So you would throw out the fourth amendment? There was no evidence showing that happened. Hearsay, yes. What evidence is there? Maybe there is. I just haven't heard any beyond the allegations.
Please tell me what met the fourth amendment criteria for a reasonable search and seizure.
Will you ever make yourself clear in a post?
If the authorities are working in good faith off a bad tip, whatever they find can still be used as evidence. I'm sure Scalia will agree if it goes that far up the system.So you would throw out the fourth amendment? There was no evidence showing that happened. Hearsay, yes. What evidence is there? Maybe there is. I just haven't heard any beyond the allegations.
Please tell me what met the fourth amendment criteria for a reasonable search and seizure.
Right now it's a matter of finding the ages of the mothers and determining the paternity of the kids. I don't know how long that process will take.
But if you want to protect pedophiles with technicalities, that's your business.
There are cons utional standards for such a thing. I disagree to your conclusion. I have seen no good faith effort here. What is it? All I see is personal ideals over law. The age of consent for this case is 16 years old. Did they find any younger? As far as I know they didn't. Only unfounded allegations say any were younger than 16.
Was the "tip" up to the standards of an "oath or affirmation?"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
And what legal precedent is there to blatantly make such a violation of these peoples rights? What right does the state have to tell the mothers they must see who the father of their children is?
I would have all pedophiles executed if it were up to me. I am not for protecting any. There still needs to be a reasonable standard before taking action. This clearly did not happen. I hope the judge issuing the warrant is disbarred.
I know the media has said such a thing in regards to pedophilia. Does that make it fact? No. In fact, you are 100% wrong in making such a statement. Pedophilia is the sexual preference of an adult for prepubescent children. These girls have gone through puberty!
You don't seize evidence to make a case. You make a case before you can seize evidence, at least to a reasonable standard. It is not reasonable to take the word of an unknown or unreliable witness! You must find collaborating evidence to a reasonable standard still.
We fought for our independence from such governmental tyranny, and now you wish to bring tyranny back?
We cannot allow our law enforcement to break the rights of the people just to ensure perpetrators do not escape justice. In this case, the violations committed by CPS, the police, and judge are far bigger chimes than any the FLDS may have committed. If the FLDS committed any crimes, they were civil crimes. Texas violated the cons ution in this case!
So now they can determine how old they are.
They usually aren't, but that doesn't stop the authorities from investigating.Was the "tip" up to the standards of an "oath or affirmation?"
I'm sure there is quite a bit of precedent for CPS being called to investigate child sex abuse charges. Quite a bit.And what legal precedent is there to blatantly make such a violation of these peoples rights? What right does the state have to tell the mothers they must see who the father of their children is?
Except when you do.I would have all pedophiles executed if it were up to me. I am not for protecting any.CPS is not at liberty to divulge all the results of their investigation. From what I have heard of the appellate ruling, there are some instructions that the lower court could follow to have many of the children removed again.There still needs to be a reasonable standard before taking action. This clearly did not happen.Nah. It's not like a child was raped or anything.I hope the judge issuing the warrant is disbarred.
I know the media has said such a thing in regards to pedophilia. Does that make it fact? No. In fact, you are 100% wrong in making such a statement. Pedophilia is the sexual preference of an adult for prepubescent children. These girls have gone through puberty!
Webster's definition is "sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object." Now if you want to keep trying to support pedophiles on the basis of technicalities, that is again your choice. I find it disturbing.
So someone reports anonymously several gunshots coming from a house. No other report comes in. Your argument is no one should go to the house. Brilliant.You don't seize evidence to make a case. You make a case before you can seize evidence, at least to a reasonable standard. It is not reasonable to take the word of an unknown or unreliable witness! You must find collaborating evidence to a reasonable standard still.
We fought for our independence from such governmental tyranny, and now you wish to bring tyranny back?
You are saying that child rape is a civil crime?We cannot allow our law enforcement to break the rights of the people just to ensure perpetrators do not escape justice. In this case, the violations committed by CPS, the police, and judge are far bigger chimes than any the FLDS may have committed. If the FLDS committed any crimes, they were civil crimes. Texas violated the cons ution in this case!
What the is wrong with you? You are posting the stupidest I have ever seen you post.
What right do they have to do so?
Should I order a DNA test on you because someone said your mother was only 25 years older than you, rather than your real birth mother, and I wanted to see if it was true without a clear evidence the accuser was truthful?
Should I break into your house just because I wish to see if someone's anonymous allegation you have a third person's missing camera is true or not? Is that reasonable?
I'll tell you what. Give me your real name and address and I'll make some anynomous tips. We can see if the local police break into your residence, or try to find reasonable cause first through investigation.
I'm not saying they shouldn't investigate. They should. You just don't blatently violate the cons uition to do so. If you have to go that far, the likelyhood is the aleged crime is a bit diminished, isn't it.
Sure, but again. Was there enough evidence for a search to be reasonable? I say no.
There are some things they cannot devulge for the protection of minors. In this case, they are not protecting the minors, at least from what I see.
Where is the evidence anyone was raped?
And the definition of "child" of the same dictionary for this case is:
Definition C: is not specific, but to me it is reasonable to assume the age of consent. If you follow the term "youth" you find it indicating befor maturity which is "full development." Isn't this normally considered to be the time of puberty?2 a: a young person especially between infancy and youth b: a childlike or childish person c: a person not yet of age
Break in from the anonymous tip? No. Call the house, knock, etc... yes. Get specifics and investigate, yes. You know, modern sound systems sure are realistic!
Wasn't something similar the initial cause to go into the Davidian compound? The use of a legal firearm within their compound? Miscommunications and assumptions lead to the assault on the compound. There was no Machine Gun fire. It was a legal weapon modified with a legal device. There were no illegal weapons found if I recall right. Assumption were used and a massacre occurred because law enforcement violated people fourth amendment rights. The people of the compound rightly fought tyranny and lost. Our government killed innocent people who were forced to protect themselves.
Don't get me wrong. I don't agree with the Davidians. I simply acknowledge their rights as free people. Same with the FLDS. I will not take away their rights because I don't like them. I don't have a black heart like you apparently do.
It is you acting like the fascist. I am standing up for what makes this America. I may not agree with other peoples lives and what they do, but I will defend their rights. Why wont you? You cannot rightly prosecute or punish free people before a crime can be shown to occur. Too often an anonymous source is lying out of spite. That is why it doesn't fit the part of fourth amendment saying "supported by Oath or affirmation." This would require some kind of legal accountability or the one making the claim.
I don't know at what point it is more. It may be higher than a civil crime, even a felony. Still, it is not as severe as violating the cons ution by those sworn to uphold it. You still didn't tell me what evidence there was of statutory rape or child molestation. Forget pedophilia. That is really a stretch without showing the first two.
I would say the same about you. You are letting your personal convictions cloud what law is suppose to be.
Correct me if I'm wrong. You willingly tear down the fourth amendment for this, but aren't you opposed to the patriot act, which does act with reasonable searches?
Well, there you go.
Thanks for agreeing with me.So you want to commit crime yourself to prove a point on a message board?I'll tell you what. Give me your real name and address and I'll make some anynomous tips. We can see if the local police break into your residence, or try to find reasonable cause first through investigation.
You are a ing pathetic piece of with no respect for the law.
WC, CPS has gotten some grief here in Texas about
children that they have not taken away from abusive
families.
Also, I really don't think you could call them taking children away from homes, when in all reality this is a cult, and
commune style living arrangement.
CPS has been damned if they do and damned if they
don't. It may have been just easier to charge a few
men with bigamy and possibly sexual exploitation of a
minor than take the approach that they did.
It is going to cost Texas a bundle, it is in reality a full
employment exercise for lawyers and they are going to
make a bundle for their efforts, especially those that are
already drawing up lawsuits to sue Texas for unlawful
acts. And the bad publicity Texas is getting, witness your
at ude, and others.
I think it's funny that a law-and-order guy like Wild Cobra thinks that dictionary definitions of "child" should supplant the definitions of that term that exist in Texas law.
Webster's FTW!
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