One of the Real Reasons shrub/ head, oilmen, started an unnecessary war

[scott]

Well, aside from my belief (and the belief of most of the sane world) there were WMD's,

So it's the sane people who ed up? Interesting.

[Yonivore]

So it's the sane people who ed up? Interesting.

So, is the great and powerful scott willing to answer the question? Where'd they go between 1998 and March 2003? And, since I respect your intelligence (although, lately, you've been off your game), I'll throw in a bonus question.

Why does Saddam Hussein get a pass on having to declare the disposition of WMD's that were known to exist, that he was under sanction to declare, and that he never disclosed? Why is everyone so ready to defend a man than never lifted one finger to comply with over a dozen resolutions, corrupted (with a complicit UN, France, Germany, and Russia) a program intended to feed starving children in his country, tried to assassinate a U.S. President, fired on Coalition Forces over 500 times in 12 years, killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi Kurds and Shi'ites, failed to abide by a cease-fire agreement and return captured U.S. servicemen or the spoils of their Kuwaiti plunder?

Just curious.

[Useruser666]

So Bush lied to everyone because he was told something he believed to be the truth and then later that was proven false? Like when your mommy told you there was a Santa Claus and you believed it with your whole heart. Then it was proven false when you caught daddy shoving your new bike under the tree one night.

[Hook Dem]

So Bush lied to everyone because he was told something he believed to be the truth and then later that was proven false? Like when your mommy told you there was a Santa Claus and you believed it with your whole heart. Then it was proven false when you caught daddy shoving your new bike under the tree one night.

Hey............how dare you use logic in this forum! Are you trying to destroy the basis on which this forum operates?

[violentkitten]

So Bush lied to everyone because he was told something he believed to be the truth and then later that was proven false? Like when your mommy told you there was a Santa Claus and you believed it with your whole heart. Then it was proven false when you caught daddy shoving your new bike under the tree one night.

the administration said it had much more than just a belief. it had "fact", "evidence", etc...that saddam possessed wmds. the santa analogy is more appropo for your position as a supporter of der leader

[sbsquared]

Why do so many of you conveniently forget that Congress saw the same intelligence information as the President and they believed it too! John Kerry, John Edwards, heck, even Hillary believed that Saddam had WMD's - so why is it President Bush's fault that the intelligence proved faulty?

And, no matter what any of you naysayers claim - the sight of thousands of Iraqis dancing in the streets, holding up their purple fingers in defiance of the terriorists, proves that what we did was right and Iraq is now better off! Dan, I would love to see you and others of your ilk go over to Iraq and tell those people that we were wrong to liberate them and that you want them to go back to the days of Saddam - I wonder what their response to you might be?!

[JoeChalupa]

Because the war was started by Bush under his orders...not Kerry's, not Clinton's, not mine.

[Nbadan]

Why do so many of you conveniently forget that Congress saw the same intelligence information as the President and they believed it too! John Kerry, John Edwards, heck, even Hillary believed that Saddam had WMD's - so why is it President Bush's fault that the intelligence proved faulty?

To many people here just conveniently over-look the close working relationship between Cheney, Wolfowitz, PNAC and George Tenet and the CIA. Cheney was in the CIA's business everyday. Even the 911 commission found that pre-war Intelligence that supported the administrations accusations against Saddam Hussein and Iraq was encouraged by Cheney and the Neocons, while that which did not support the charges was frowned upon and buried. Many of the Senate and House members, including John Kerry, who made statements about Iraq's capabilities and whether or not Saddam still possessed WMD's before the war, were working under the intelligence and biased assumptions provided by the Neocon controlled CIA.

Even CIA Chief George Tenet at first fought off the accusations made by the NeoCons and its group of complicit media payola reporters about Saddams working relationship with Al Queda and Iraqi's strike capabilities against western targets using unmanned airplanes and WMD's. Planes that later turned out to have the sophistication of a jr. league home model builder here in the U.S..

Of course, all that came to a head when Tenet sat silently behind Colin Powell at the UN as the former pointed to aerial photos of what turned out to be empty Iraqi water tanks and proclaimed them to be ready to use WMD delivery units.

[Useruser666]

the administration said it had much more than just a belief. it had "fact", "evidence", etc...that saddam possessed wmds. the santa analogy is more appropo for your position as a supporter of der leader

Ok, and those facts were proved wrong. So why is it Bush's fault that those facts were wrong? He's whole job is to make decisions from the info the people around him and those in the field provide to him. If people tell him things that aren't true, he can't necessarily go out and check out every piece of info he gets. That's not his job.

Can anyone show me proof Bush knew there were no WMD before the war? Can anyone show proof that Bush didn't believe in any of the reasons he stated the invasion was for? I might tend to believe the evidence was weak and Bush was just playing the odds, but that is far more respectable than many of the ridiculous things that have been thrown about.

[Nbadan]

Ok, and those facts were proved wrong. So why is it Bush's fault that those facts were wrong? He's whole job is to make decisions from the info the people around him and those in the field provide to him. If people tell him things that aren't true, he can't necessarily go out and check out every piece of info he gets. That's not his job.

'His job' is to oversee those that work under him and he, not the CIA, the Dept. of Education, or any other cabinet or cabinet member has the final word on adminstration policy and decisions that affect those policies. It's time for W to man-up and stop shifting the blame for adminstration policy failure, especially those pertaining to the pre-war intelligence going into Iraq, and the failed reconstruction policies that have alienated 1/3 of the Iraqi population. Only then can serious reconcilation with the New Democratic Party begin.

[Useruser666]

'His job' is to oversee those that work under him and he, not the CIA, the Dept. of Education, or any other cabinet or cabinet member has the final word on adminstration policy and decisions that affect those policies. It's time for W to man-up and stop shifting the blame for adminstration policy failure, especially those pertaining to the pre-war intelligence going into Iraq, and the failed reconstruction policies that have alienated 1/3 of the Iraqi population. Only then can serious reconcilation with the New Democratic Party begin.

Uhhhhh, so it's his fault that the info he had was wrong? The info that had been gathered in the same manner as previous administrations? Are you saying that even if Iraq had WMD and ties to terror Bush was wrong for leading the US to war?

[Nbadan]

Uhhhhh, so it's his fault that the info he had was wrong? The info that had been gathered in the same manner as previous administrations? Are you saying that even if Iraq had WMD and ties to terror Bush was wrong for leading the US to war?

Gathered in the same manner, yes maybe, but certainly not used in the same manner. The invasion of Iraq and the overthrow of Saddam Hussein and the plans for this invasion was laid out by PNAC while Clinton was still in office. (Maybe you should ask yourself here why Cheney still refuses to hand over the adminstrations first-term energy report?) This White House just made sure that Pre-War Intelligence on Iraq fit the scene of the crime that they wanted it to fit, so to say.

Today, 60% of Americans say this war was a mistake. Whatever success the recent election had or didn't have, now the hard work really begins for the coalition. If we are talking about a real Jeffersonian-type democracy here and since the Shiite and the Kurds are sure to win a majority, the U.S. could be put into a uncomfortable position where it is protecting the minority rights and 'rule of law' of the new Iraqi minority - the Sunni. That's right, lets see us protect the Sunni from ourselves.

[Useruser666]

Uhhhhhh what???? You must have been brainfart....errrr... storming when you wrote that.

If the plans were written before Bush, and then 9/11 happened after Clinton then why was Bush wrong for leading us to war?

Who care about Chaney and energy reports, that has nothing to do with my question or this topic. Or enlighten me.

60% of Americans? That number changes every day up and down.

What are you talking about the Sunni's for? Did they not vote?

[Spurminator]

You round 52 up to 60? That's some fuzzy math.

I will be very interested to see the first post-election Gallup Poll results.

[Nbadan]

If the plans were written before Bush, and then 9/11 happened after Clinton then why was Bush wrong for leading us to war?

I know your brain can only understand linear thinking, but try and be a little abstract for me here. PNAC presented their plans for the invasion of Iraq and the overthrow of Saddam to the Clinton Administration after the African Embassy bombings, but the same intelligence that pursuaded W after 911 that Saddam possessed WMD's and was a immediate threat to the U.S., wasn't seen that way by the Clinton adminstration in 1998.

Since Tenet was a hold-over from the Clinton adminstration, you have to assume that Clinton was getting the same intelligence on Iraq in 1998 that W was getting in 2001 and beyond, I mean, nothing else changed, right? Yet Clinton wasn't convinced by the same intelligence that Saddam was a domestic threat then, nor that he still clearly possessed WMD's. It's also clear that other intelligence services, including the Russians, French, Chinese and the U.N. weren't convinced either, thus the effort by the Neocons to discredit them.

[Useruser666]

Sorry Dan I will have to get back to you on this later. I'm going to have a few drinks and then go over SW's house now. I'll continue this talk tomorrow.

[scott]

So, is the great and powerful scott willing to answer the question? Where'd they go between 1998 and March 2003? And, since I respect your intelligence (although, lately, you've been off your game), I'll throw in a bonus question.

What's the question?

The only issue I've commented on in this thread is your reference to all sane people believing Iraq had WMDs, which, turns out, they didn't.

[CommanderMcBragg]

Yonivore has placed his "open mind" in a lock box and no matter what the facts say he will not change.

Fact - NO WMD's in Iraq.
Fact - NO ties between Iraq and 9/11.
Fact - The WMD was the main reason Bush wanted this war.

[Ocotillo]

Well, aside from my belief (and the belief of most of the sane world) there were WMD's, prior to invasion, there were a mul ude of reasons given for invading Iraq. From continued resistance to and defiance of over a dozen UNSC resolutions, to human rights abuses verging on genocide, to attempted assassination of a sitting president, to frequent and blatant violations of the 1991 cease-fire agreement, to inflammatory rhetoric (to the effect of using WMD's on our troops), and on and on and on...

That you can't seem to be able to avert your attention from the mainstream media's perception of the war is telling.

That is sending the BS meter off the chart!

Most of the sane world may have beleived there were WMDs because of his possession of them back in the 80s but most of the sane world realized he was a toothless tiger that was not even in control of the Kurdish region of this own country and could not fly aircraft.

Regarding the UNSC resolutions, oh today you decide to listen to the UN? What about the fact that the UNSC opposed the US action in Iraq?

Human rights abuses? A red herring. Just a another in the litany of reason's given to go to war because BushCo wanted to sell the war. Hussein was/is a bad guy but there are many other bad guys in the world....they even have some running China committing human rights abuses. I know, bleeding heart that you are Yoni you boycotted the made in Iraq merchandise at Wal-Mart when Saddam was in charge.

Regarding the attempted assasination of a sitting president, while that was reported as being cited in private conversations that bush has had, I don't recall that being included in his public pronouncements, might have been. Wasn't the big one that was cited.

Violations of the 1991 cease fire, he can try, but he couldn't do anything because he was surrounded by the US military.

Inflammatory rhetoric. Good God! I need to start looking over my shoulder if that's a reason for military invasion.

and on and on and on.....puh-leaze BushCo apologist, BushCo cited a number of reasons for going to war but what closed the deal with Congress and the general populace was the boogey man WMD argument.

I guess there was a reason the UN inspectors were not finding WMDs, it turns out they were not there or at least that is what the administration is saying now.

Rational people wanted to give the inspectors time to complete their job. NeoCon hawks wanted to invade Iraq because of it's geoplitical import and oil and Israel so they ignored intelligence that cast doubts upon Iraq's possession of WMDs and played up the intelligence that said they did because they had an agenda.

Go join the reserves Yoni and help Bushie free the world.

[Useruser666]

So where exactly did Bush lie?

[Hook Dem]

So where exactly did Bush lie?

Give up 666! They can't answer that one. It's just a talking point!

[office handle]

what if none of you are right?

[Useruser666]

I'm just asking a question.

[office handle]

so am i mother

[SpursWoman]

wow. another screen name.