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  1. #751
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    Spurs either taking Topic (6’7) or Matas Buzellis (6’’10) . Two taller g/f that can shoot. Bank on it
    Neither of them can shoot

  2. #752
    Costly Mistakes JPB's Avatar
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    The point that I'm making is that even though those alternatives seem like they're reliably going to be there, it tends not to work out during actual drafts. A team may not want to give them a future first for 28, and if we're talking about seconds and cash, it's not hard at all to see why they'd prefer the route they went. What do you mean "expedite"? Quickley is expiring and Barnes is in his swing year. This is an important stretch of games to set the groundwork for what the 2024-2025 Raptors will be.



    They do have a fair bit of draft capital, and this year is a key example of that. I'm not Bod -- I get what you mean by a lotto pick, but you're overrating the importance of it. The Raptors will have their chances to get a middle-draft pick by taking on money this summer. So if they can trade a ticket for players they consider useful now while keeping the option open to buy a third or fourth pick from a team like SA later, where is the opportunity cost?



    The point is that it's easy to rationalize it. I can't make you agree, but rather than trying to use the lack of criticism to point to some systemic bias toward Toronto, it might be a sign that the trade is not that strange. As I've pointed out, I haven't been against making low-cost moves for key vets at any point in this process. Maybe the Spurs have always had some special context. But you're much more likely to catch mean thinking they aren't being aggressive enough in adding talent than me wanting them to be more conservative.



    Funnily enough, the Pistons did make a similar trade when they acquired Simone Fontecchio for the projected 34th-overall pick this year. It turns out that it's not really a big deal. Would Chicago get criticized for trading a pick they don't have for a win-now player in a season in which their best player is already out for the season? Yes. Because the context is different.



    It might seem weird to some folks here, but the Spurs are fine. Basically every team that "waits too long" or "tries to stay on the treadmill" ends up being fine. The Sixers were a treadmill team before Hinkie. The Grizzlies couldn't let go of their old Grit 'n' Grind players. Dallas kept trying to get juice from the Dirk fruit long past when it became futile. If the Raptors are the DeRozan-era Spurs, then they'll be fine too. Maybe that means in three or four years they get a bunch of unprotected picks for Barnes and some more for Quickley and Barrett. Maybe they figure out how to make it work like Miami did around Bam. Even if they eventually have to tank, the only difference will be that fans with certain values will have felt like previous years were somehow wasted.

    I'm actually not a huge fan of most of the moves Ujuri makes, so I will resist the accusation that I'm actually defending them. But I don't actually have any hard feelings concerning the Raptors, who at this point have given SA a decent haul in trades. Ujuri has huge blind spots for African or Africa-adjacent players which causes him to fetishize low-EROI prospects, with Agbaji potentially being just another such attempt. I didn't really have Quickley as a important player to get, so I think acquiring him for OG was a sub-optimal deal. I think Wright's been styling on him for a couple of years now too. But I will speak for moves that he makes that align with moves I wish the Spurs would make As I said, I would've liked the team to use the Charlotte pick to bring in a rotation player or have been in the O'Neal bidding. I can't fault a GM who uses a superfluous asset get two guys he thinks will be good for his team.
    Sixers initiated their epic "process" and started to tank the 2013-2014 season, culminating in 2015-2016 with that 10-72 worse ever record.

    10 years later, they still have to go back to the Finals (last appearance in 2001).

  3. #753
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    Hot take but I'd rather add Filipowski than Sarr

  4. #754
    Veteran mo7888's Avatar
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    Hot take but I'd rather add Filipowski than Sarr
    Yup... that take is smokin hot...

  5. #755
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    The point that I'm making is that even though those alternatives seem like they're reliably going to be there, it tends not to work out during actual drafts. A team may not want to give them a future first for 28, and if we're talking about seconds and cash, it's not hard at all to see why they'd prefer the route they went. What do you mean "expedite"? Quickley is expiring and Barnes is in his swing year. This is an important stretch of games to set the groundwork for what the 2024-2025 Raptors will be.



    They do have a fair bit of draft capital, and this year is a key example of that. I'm not Bod -- I get what you mean by a lotto pick, but you're overrating the importance of it. The Raptors will have their chances to get a middle-draft pick by taking on money this summer. So if they can trade a ticket for players they consider useful now while keeping the option open to buy a third or fourth pick from a team like SA later, where is the opportunity cost?



    The point is that it's easy to rationalize it. I can't make you agree, but rather than trying to use the lack of criticism to point to some systemic bias toward Toronto, it might be a sign that the trade is not that strange. As I've pointed out, I haven't been against making low-cost moves for key vets at any point in this process. Maybe the Spurs have always had some special context. But you're much more likely to catch mean thinking they aren't being aggressive enough in adding talent than me wanting them to be more conservative.



    Funnily enough, the Pistons did make a similar trade when they acquired Simone Fontecchio for the projected 34th-overall pick this year. It turns out that it's not really a big deal. Would Chicago get criticized for trading a pick they don't have for a win-now player in a season in which their best player is already out for the season? Yes. Because the context is different.



    It might seem weird to some folks here, but the Spurs are fine. Basically every team that "waits too long" or "tries to stay on the treadmill" ends up being fine. The Sixers were a treadmill team before Hinkie. The Grizzlies couldn't let go of their old Grit 'n' Grind players. Dallas kept trying to get juice from the Dirk fruit long past when it became futile. If the Raptors are the DeRozan-era Spurs, then they'll be fine too. Maybe that means in three or four years they get a bunch of unprotected picks for Barnes and some more for Quickley and Barrett. Maybe they figure out how to make it work like Miami did around Bam. Even if they eventually have to tank, the only difference will be that fans with certain values will have felt like previous years were somehow wasted.

    I'm actually not a huge fan of most of the moves Ujuri makes, so I will resist the accusation that I'm actually defending them. But I don't actually have any hard feelings concerning the Raptors, who at this point have given SA a decent haul in trades. Ujuri has huge blind spots for African or Africa-adjacent players which causes him to fetishize low-EROI prospects, with Agbaji potentially being just another such attempt. I didn't really have Quickley as a important player to get, so I think acquiring him for OG was a sub-optimal deal. I think Wright's been styling on him for a couple of years now too. But I will speak for moves that he makes that align with moves I wish the Spurs would make As I said, I would've liked the team to use the Charlotte pick to bring in a rotation player or have been in the O'Neal bidding. I can't fault a GM who uses a superfluous asset get two guys he thinks will be good for his team.
    Fine, but again, what's the rush to find out? That's what I mean by expedite. The '24-'25 Craptors are going to look an awful lot like the current iteration, which is to say a treadmill team.

    At least with an organization like the Bulls, it's because it's believed ownership won't give them the autonomy to re-build.

    The opportunity cost is one more lottery ticket rushed out the door so that they can chase being closer to 20th than 25th in the standings.

    It's not systemic bias, it's they were/are an organization with an inferiority complex and a thirst for attention, so they played the game within' the game with media big wigs and this is part of what they get in return for it.

    Yeah and the Pistons have predictably been racked over the coals for their move.

    In a literal sense, sure. Wait long enough and odds are every franchise will eventually be "fine", if by that you mean good. You can still do logical things to increase the odds of lessening the time until you get to that point though.

    The difference between the Spurs and Craptors is, the former lucked into a clear franchise player in the making and loaded up on quan y and quality of draft capital beforehand while already having one, young malleable starter in house.

    They have none of those things and are deluding themselves because they can't stand being out of the spotlight.

  6. #756
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    Hot take but I'd rather add Filipowski than Sarr
    Even then you still take Sarr and then trade him for asset(s) and a later pick for Filipowski

  7. #757
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    If that where to happen I would do a trade with Charlotte, Detroit, and Washington - Trade places this year and give us option to trade with them next year with no protections

  8. #758
    ...a.k.a. mAtT!iC3 mudyez's Avatar
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    If that where to happen I would do a trade with Charlotte, Detroit, and Washington - Trade places this year and give us option to trade with them next year with no protections
    Nice idea, but with Flagg next year, I doubt anyone bites without at least #1 protection.

  9. #759
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    Even then you still take Sarr and then trade him for asset(s) and a later pick for Filipowski
    Yeah, I'm not saying I think Filipowski should be picked over Sarr... just that I'd rather have Filipowski on the Spurs.

  10. #760
    El rojo y los Spurs!!! Ariel's Avatar
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    Nice idea, but with Flagg next year, I doubt anyone bites without at least #1 protection.
    Sure, but there are lots of other options as well. With the new rules coming into play, contenders without assets¨(Phoenix, Dallas, Milwaukee, etc) will have to get creative in order to improve and the Spurs may find opportunities to put their surpluss of assets to good use, for instance buying swap options for picks, splitting a late lottery pick into multiple future ones (like NYK did when they moved the 11th pick in the 2022 draft to OKC), attaching bad money with a pick in exchange for assets and/or a lesser pick, etc. For instance, say the Spurs want to get rid of Zach Collins in the offseason, Washington is trying to go for a home run but needs more shots, they could offer Zach Collins + Toronto's pick for Deni Avdija + Kispert (with additional value/filler going either way to round it up) or other such teams. Of course there are lots of examples, but my point is there's IMO a very real chance of drawing value even from a perceived weak draft.

  11. #761
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    Sure, but there are lots of other options as well. With the new rules coming into play, contenders without assets¨(Phoenix, Dallas, Milwaukee, etc) will have to get creative in order to improve and the Spurs may find opportunities to put their surpluss of assets to good use, for instance buying swap options for picks, splitting a late lottery pick into multiple future ones (like NYK did when they moved the 11th pick in the 2022 draft to OKC), attaching bad money with a pick in exchange for assets and/or a lesser pick, etc. For instance, say the Spurs want to get rid of Zach Collins in the offseason, Washington is trying to go for a home run but needs more shots, they could offer Zach Collins + Toronto's pick for Deni Avdija + Kispert (with additional value/filler going either way to round it up) or other such teams. Of course there are lots of examples, but my point is there's IMO a very real chance of drawing value even from a perceived weak draft.
    Why would we want Washington’s failed lottery picks? I’d rather make 5 first round selections in 2025.

  12. #762
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    Nice idea, but with Flagg next year, I doubt anyone bites without at least #1 protection.
    They can’t have their cake and eat it, too. If we’re trading a #1 pick,they get no #1 protection next year.

  13. #763
    El rojo y los Spurs!!! Ariel's Avatar
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    Why would we want Washington’s failed lottery picks? I’d rather make 5 first round selections in 2025.
    Avdija is a nice all around role player who just turned 23 and has been steadily improving, he's signed to an EXCELLENT contract (4 year extension averaging about 13M with a descending structure), and Kispert is a very good shooter on a rookie contract. Also, if any lottery pick that doesn't become a star is a failure, any current Spur not named Wemby qualifies as such. I was just proposing an example of an alternative to using the pick if all Spurs' targets are gone (which includes dumping Zach Collins' contract) that goes to show the Spurs don't need to settle someone they don't really like, they could of course roll the pick over as well. Sometimes we're fixated on buying "lottery tickets" but building a winning team often includes other ways of acquiring talent beyond that.

  14. #764
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    Interesting fake trade proposal. I like it conceptually, as far as getting younger veterans who are plug and play and won't break the bank.

    My only concern would be the negative overlap (spacing) of the Sochan-Avdija pairing, though they could mostly split minutes.

  15. #765
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    I’ve always liked Deni, but he plays basically the same role as Sochan. Definitely don’t need both.

  16. #766
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    For those wanting the Toronto pick, Hornets did us a solid and bumped Memphis off at home. Toronto lost on a back-to-back to Cleveland, who is beating everyone, leaving them still a game up on the Grizz.

    We face Toronto on Monday.

  17. #767
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    For those wanting the Toronto pick, Hornets did us a solid and bumped Memphis off at home. Toronto lost on a back-to-back to Cleveland, who is beating everyone, leaving them still a game up on the Grizz.

    We face Toronto on Monday.
    The game i will maybe be upset if we win.

  18. #768
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    I’ve always liked Deni, but he plays basically the same role as Sochan. Definitely don’t need both.
    It's about creating internal compe ion. Avdija is better than Sochan, but also 3 years older. In the interim, the former should inherit the latter's role and the latter should inherit Osman's.

    See how they progress for 1-2 seasons, then make a decision if need be.

  19. #769
    El rojo y los Spurs!!! Ariel's Avatar
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    I see Deni as a more polished, higher floor, better shooting version of Sochan. That isn't an archetype where more than one player on your roster is redundant (like, say, strictly rim runner C). Also, Sochan is a prospect, one I actually like very much, but whose ultimate fate will depend on how his shot (and offense overall) comes along (it's improving but far from certain), it isn't even clear he'll be with the team past his extension elegibility date if both he and the team don't come to an understanding. And when a team is so thin at every position as the Spurs, to the point you don't have a single clear long term starter anywhere other than C, you can't afford to pass up talent based on uncertain projections. Personally, I'd add as much proven young talent as possible, and by this I mean guys who are already contributing and project to grow. What's the worst than can happen? Sochan blows up and you have 2 good players at one position? That's a great problem to have, whether to play them, or to use them as currency when the missing piece becomes available. As long as the salary and the acquisition cost is reasonable, the options that flexibility can give you can't be bad.

    Let me give you another example: lots of people are enamored with either Risacher or Cody Williams. Personally I think they're on paper probably the best long term fit, but I'm far from certain. They also seem to be the exact archetype Presti salivates over (big wings with all around skill set that can shoot), and he's known to overpay when he sees something he likes. Say you can draft either of them with one of the picks (even the Spurs own). Wouldn't you consider, say, Cason Wallace + 2027 best of OKC/Clippers pick? Cason Wallace doesn't project as a star, but he's a very solid 2 way young guard who can shoot, on a rookie scale contract. If Presti becomes infatuated, he might go for it. There are lots of options that the Spurs could explore beyond just settling with picking whomever is higher on their board, even if they're not known for taking these chances (like Dallas is, for instance).

    Or course I'm not saying any of this is likely to happen and it's more of an excercise, but I guess I'm saying I'd like to see them try something like that rather than settling, unless they truly love the player they're getting.
    Last edited by Ariel; 02-11-2024 at 05:27 PM.

  20. #770
    Veteran mo7888's Avatar
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    It's about creating internal compe ion. Avdija is better than Sochan, but also 3 years older. In the interim, the former should inherit the latter's role and the latter should inherit Osman's.

    See how they progress for 1-2 seasons, then make a decision if need be.
    Just in general, this is the way I think we should build this team. Get productive role players on good contracts here and there (Deni, Reaves, GTJ, etc) that have a specific skill and use the higher draft picks for higher upside players that have a chance to be your #2 or #3 or trade them for a star.

    Having those role players on value contracts (under $20M) creates compe ion and builds a roster that's more attractive for a star if one comes available.

  21. #771
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    Barring one of Avdija or Sochan becoming a good enough shooter for the defense to respect them (Vassell and Kispert would probably be the only two rotation players to fit this description), they would have to eventually choose between them, but that's fine.

    If Sochan can't hit or exceed Avdija's level (low end starter), then he'd become part of the eventual package for star X, presuming they're unable to land another one in the draft first.

  22. #772
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I'm a big fan of the team having open compe ion. I am not a big fan of the Spurs using a lotto pick on MLE players. When I'm talking about Collins' contract being whatever in the context of an aggressive trade, I mean in a superstar trade where the Spurs are already dropping unprotected picks and the other team is rebuilding. That other team isn't really going to care if Collins has two years on his deal. A team like Washington converting role-players into questionable salary WILL care, and the Collins part of the trade would cost more. Now it's not clear that the Wizards would even do the deal in the first place, but the Spurs have the cap space and expiring contracts to do the trade without dumping Collins. Doing that would be smarter, because 1) Zach might well play better and improve his value and 2) The Spurs still need contracts to make a bigger trade later.

    Dumping Collins should absolutely not be the team's priority this year UNLESS they are going to need the space to make a major signing. The difference between how we as fans viewed Collins' deal in October rather than now is because he's not playing as well as he used to. He didn't suffer a(nother) major injury or get into legal trouble. The Spurs should look into getting a better center than Collins, but outside of a major acquisition, they are better off letting Collins compete for the job rather than trying to sell as low as possible.

    Most of us feel the Spurs will have to make a big deal eventually, whether that's this summer or other the next three or four years. While it's possible they try for cap space, the modern NBA is more focused on trades than free agency. Collins' deal is meh now as ballast, but in 2025-2026, it's an expiring. Avdija and Kispert would also moveable contracts, along with Johnson. Collins' mid-sized deal has more utility than cap space.

    So I don't really think it's a good idea to sell the Raptors pick for a trade like this. I get that moving picks would be important if the pick rolls over to 2025. But I would prefer the Spurs to use the pick either on a major trade as mentioned above or to acquire a 2024 pick. Like maybe Toronto prefers 2025's draft so much that they'd trade their sixth-overall pick for their 2025 pick back and the Chicago or Charlotte pick.

  23. #773
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    According to this board, they shouldn't spare a single asset on anything but the 1% of players that are perceived as not only good but "cultural" fits around here.

  24. #774
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I mean, I guess you could say that not agreeing with the team spending a lottery pick on MLE-level players just to dump a mid-sized deal is the same as saying they shouldn't spare a single asset on a non-elite player. But it would really weird to do that in response to a poster who was just talking about spending an asset on a less-than-1% player earlier in this same thread. Yeah, you could totally do that if you're so unwilling to defend your point that you think it's better to try to twist the opposing point to absurdity.

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    I mean, I guess you could say that not agreeing with the team spending a lottery pick on MLE-level players just to dump a mid-sized deal is the same as saying they shouldn't spare a single asset on a non-elite player. But it would really weird to do that in response to a poster who was just talking about spending an asset on a less-than-1% player earlier in this same thread. Yeah, you could totally do that if you're so unwilling to defend your point that you think it's better to try to twist the opposing point to absurdity.
    It was more a general comment (hence the non-quote), but since you're being defensive about it, it wouldn't have mattered the name(s) save for certain untouchable superstars. The usual suspects would have shot it down.

    Collins' deal far exceeds mid sized. Given that bigs generally occupy one position and he brings precisely zero of the attributes teams usually covet out of it, it'll be difficult to move.

    Of course, this is the kind of trade you'd only make right before the pick.

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