Torture: Still doesn't work

[Yonivore]

So you're okay with being the same as these Muslim s?

Nothing the CIA did even approaches the depths of depravity of which the terrorists have proven capable and willing.

What makes us better, then? Jesus?

Well, let see, how are we different? Hmmm...

Oh! Here's a couple of examples.

We don't attack schools and massacre students by the hundreds...after forcing those children to watch us decapitate their teacher and set her on fire.

We don't record their decapitations on video and broadcast it on the internet.

We don't kidnap young girls and sell them and then issue fatwas that condone all manner of cruel and brutal acts to be committed against them.

There's a few differences...

[Spurminator]

Nothing the CIA did even approaches the depths of depravity of which the terrorists have proven capable and willing.

Well, let see, how are we different? Hmmm...

Oh! Here's a couple of examples.

We don't attack schools and massacre students by the hundreds...after forcing those children to watch us decapitate their teacher and set her on fire.

We don't record their decapitations on video and broadcast it on the internet.

We don't kidnap young girls and sell them and then issue fatwas that condone all manner of cruel and brutal acts to be committed against them.

There's a few differences...

Calm down, Sean, I was asking a question about a specific point of view, not giving an opinion of how we rank against third world countries. I'm glad you got your opportunity to remind us what a good 'Murican you are though.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

There is no moral high ground to occupy here. There is no history of Politically Correct behavior. It's a tough world out there. Those same Muslim s would have returned the favor in triplicate given the opportunity.

Only if you don't think sexual torture is wrong. We get that you don't think there is anything wrong with it but this isn't about you, dimwit. You don't get to outline morality for anyone else.

[Yonivore]

Calm down, Sean, I was asking a question about a specific point of view, not giving an opinion of how we rank against third world countries. I'm glad you got your opportunity to remind us what a good 'Murican you are though.

You asked what made us better. I gave you three examples.

[Spurminator]

You asked what made us better. I gave you three examples.

I would have chosen something like our freedom of speech, our religious freedom, our inventors, our artistry, our economic opportunities, our options for entertainment... You know, stuff that isn't just right above the absolute lowest bar possible.

[CosmicCowboy]

I didn't have any say in that.

You think you have a say in what we do now?

[Spurminator]

You think you have a say in what we do now?

I knew that was coming.

It's not much, but public opposition requires individual opposition.

[Yonivore]

I knew that was coming.

It's not much, but public opposition requires individual opposition.

It should also require a requisite knowledge of the events you oppose.

[Spurminator]

It should also require a requisite knowledge of the events you oppose.

What knowledge am I missing? We all have the same information, you've just been given different opinions about it.

[Yonivore]

What knowledge am I missing? We all have the same information, you've just been given different opinions about it.

What did the Department of Justice say was the reason the enhanced interrogation techniques, designed by the CIA and vetted by them, did not cons ute torture?

Or, what are the specific differences between waterboarding, as designed and implemented by the CIA, and waterboarding, as designed and implemented by the Japanese in WWII?

Let's start with those bits of knowledge.

[ChumpDumper]

What did the Department of Justice say was the reason the enhanced interrogation techniques, designed by the CIA and vetted by them, did not cons ute torture?

Or, what are the specific differences between waterboarding, as designed and implemented by the CIA, and waterboarding, as designed and implemented by the Japanese in WWII?

Let's start with those bits of knowledge.

How is it different from the waterboarding done by Americans in Vietnam?

[Yonivore]

How is it different from the waterboarding done by Americans in Vietnam?

Ah, the question is mine. How is it different?

If you and Spurminator don't know the answer to that and the question about how the DOJ drew the line, then neither of you have the requisite knowledge to declare what was done to terrorists, post 9/11, cons uted torture.

[Spurminator]

If you and Spurminator don't know the answer to that and the question about how the DOJ drew the line, then neither of you have the requisite knowledge to declare what was done to terrorists, post 9/11, cons uted torture.

I'm not on either side of the "what is/isn't torture" argument, because it's semantical.

But to humor you, the DOJ argued that torture is defined as a technique that involves extreme pain or prolonged mental harm, and that that cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment is not torture.

My position, like many who oppose the methods detailed in the report, is that we shouldn't even be resorting to cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment, and we especially shouldn't be threatening families and inflicting this stuff on innocent people.

[Yonivore]

I think you're missing the whole point. I'm not on either side of the "what is/isn't torture" argument, because it's semantical.

To humor you, the DOJ argued that torture is defined as a technique that involves extreme pain or prolonged mental harm, and that that cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment is not torture.

My position, like many who oppose the methods detailed in the report, is that we shouldn't even be resorting to cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment, and we especially shouldn't be threatening families and inflicting this stuff on innocent people.

I don't recall any of the EITs allowing for use on innocent people or families.

But, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think the EITs cons uted torture and I believe they were warranted, justified, and effective.

[Yonivore]

I am curious, Spurminator, just to what extent would you be willing to go to try an extract intelligence from someone you strongly believed had information about pending terrorist attacks or knew the location of someone that had knowledge of pending terror attacks.

In other words, if you could have gotten to these guys...

Taliban have released more images of terrorists who attacked on school

...before they self-detonated after murdering over 130 schoolchildren, what would you be willing to do to find the person they called and asked, "We've killed all the children, now what do we do?"

Or, better yet, what would you be willing to that person, once you found him, to try to discover if there were plans to attack and kill more innocent children?

I think it's a legitimate question...and, perfectly analogous to what you and I would have done to KSM or Abu Zehbaydah had we had the opportunity.

I agree with what was done to those two and I would be in agreement with doing the same to the terrorists from the school massacre, as well.

What would you have done with KSM and Abu? With these guys? I'm curious.

[CosmicCowboy]

Personally, i think if you are going to fight then fight to win using every means available to you. Losing "honorably" is for losers.

[Th'Pusher]

Personally, i think if you are going to fight then fight to win using every means available to you. Losing "honorably" is for losers.

So raping women and children to demoralize the enemy; That's in CC's playbook?

[CosmicCowboy]

So raping women and children to demoralize the enemy; That's in CC's playbook?

Good god that was a straw man jump of monumental proportions.

Typical stupid response from the Pusher, though.

[Th'Pusher]

Good god that was a straw man jump of monumental proportions.

Typical stupid response from the Pusher, though.

How is that a strawman jump? You said every means available to win?

[CosmicCowboy]

How is that a strawman jump? You said every means available to win?

Well, dumb , it starts with your incredibly flawed premise that raping women and children would demoralize the enemy.

But then again, that is just how stupid you really are.

[ChumpDumper]

Ah, the question is mine. How is it different?

If you and Spurminator don't know the answer to that and the question about how the DOJ drew the line, then neither of you have the requisite knowledge to declare what was done to terrorists, post 9/11, cons uted torture.

It's different, but still torture.

I know how the DOJ tried to draw the line, but they failed.

[ChumpDumper]

Personally, i think if you are going to fight then fight to win using every means available to you. Losing "honorably" is for losers.

The US would never lose this war. There was no reason to resort to torture.

[CosmicCowboy]

The US would never lose this war. There was no reason to resort to torture.

Of course we will lose this war.

We aren't ever gonna win against these evil bas s playing nice.

[Spurminator]

I am curious, Spurminator, just to what extent would you be willing to go to try an extract intelligence from someone you strongly believed had information about pending terrorist attacks or knew the location of someone that had knowledge of pending terror attacks.

In other words, if you could have gotten to these guys...

Taliban have released more images of terrorists who attacked on school

...before they self-detonated after murdering over 130 schoolchildren, what would you be willing to do to find the person they called and asked, "We've killed all the children, now what do we do?"

Or, better yet, what would you be willing to that person, once you found him, to try to discover if there were plans to attack and kill more innocent children?

I think it's a legitimate question...and, perfectly analogous to what you and I would have done to KSM or Abu Zehbaydah had we had the opportunity.

I agree with what was done to those two and I would be in agreement with doing the same to the terrorists from the school massacre, as well.

What would you have done with KSM and Abu? With these guys? I'm curious.

I think the whole idea that we can reliably and consistently extract information like this is flawed. It fails more often than it succeeds, and the ideal approach is to build up our image and relationships in these regions so we are able to get intel from the willing. There may not have been anything we could do about the tragedy at that school, but it's an opportunity for us to magnify who the real bad guys are, as long as we don't it up and make ourselves look worse.

[CosmicCowboy]

I think the whole idea that we can reliably and consistently extract information like this is flawed. It fails more often than it succeeds, and the ideal approach is to build up our image and relationships in these regions so we are able to get intel from the willing. There may not have been anything we could do about the tragedy at that school, but it's an opportunity for us to magnify who the real bad guys are, as long as we don't it up and make ourselves look worse.

But you are looking at it like a spoiled American who came from a culture of free will and choice. These third world cultures are WAY down the Mazlow curve and don't think like you do.

They respect power, not kumbaya touchy feely pla udes. Go in there and up these bas s and kill their wives, kids, aunts, uncles and girlfriends to the very last one. Hearts and minds? the only way to win with these bas s is to exterminate them like vermin.