Duncan>Hakeem.

[ambchang]

And finally:

Link

led "1995 N.B.A. PLAYOFFS; Houston's 3-Pointers Are Putting It on Top"

They made the most 3-pointers of any team during the regular season. And during the finals, the Houston Rockets have used that weapon wisely to put themselves on the brink of another le.

With Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Mario Elie and Kenny Smith leading the way, the Rockets' long-range attack has helped them build a 3-0 lead over the Orlando Magic in the four-of-seven-game championship series. The inside force of Hakeem Olajuwon, coupled with Houston's perimeter shooting, has turned Orlando's defense inside out. When the Magic plays Olajuwon one on one, he usually scores. When it double-teams him, the Rockets usually find the unguarded man for an open 3-pointer.

How do you stop that? Orlando has yet to figure it out, heading into Game 4 on Wednesday night at the Summit.

Interestingly, in the article itself, Rudy T was quoted as saying:

"It's a daily thing that we live by," said Rudy Tomjanovich, the Rockets' coach, reflecting on Houston's 40 percent shooting from 3-point range during the finals. "There is not a guy on this team that won't get into a situation where they are shooting some 3-pointers in practice. That is just the way we live. That's a part of the Rockets' system."

[ambchang]

When a coach admits that the team's bread-and-butter was 3 point shooting, and that everyone practices it, and that they got the championship, I would reason that the team is a pretty damned good 3 point shooting team.
But no, they were just average, or even suckass by some, because they were 3% off the top shooting team in the league. This is just brilliant.

[kingmalaki]

I would say Corey Maggette is a great FT shooter, it was an integral part of his offense, gets his man into foul trouble, and coverts it at a reasonable rate.
Kobe would be the same, great FT shooter, no doubt.
I would say James is a very good FT shooter, for someone to consistently go to the line and making his team pay, afterall, him going to the FT line yields 1.4 expected points, far more than a FT, which gives about 1.

But then again, these are individuals, would you say the Bulls were a great 3pt shooting team last year? The were, afterall, 2nd in the league. Were they a better 3pt shooting team than GS, despite making 280 more but a few % points higher.

And no, I never implied the Rockets were accurate, you kept saying that I was backtracking, but continued not be able to quote me. To me, this is a low form of argument. I don't know how you can say that I implied the Rockets were accurate, when in the 3rd or 4th post I had regarding 3's, I flat out said I never said they were accurate, but they were great, and when the 1st post I went out and said the Rockets can bomb away from 3 pt land. Where is the implication that I said they were accurate? Is flat out saying that I never said they were accurate implying that they were accurate? Which world do you live in?

Also, was Lebron James 3% point off the league leader, like what the Rockets were in 95? Or was he an astounding 3.4% off, like they were in 94? You know, I figured if 3% is what separates an excellent % from an average/suckass %, 0.4% could be quite significant.

BTW, so is Manu a better shooter than Kobe? He did get better FG% and 3P% than Kobe the last 3 seasons.

So basically you are saying Maggette is great at getting to the FT line and making FT's is an important part of his offense...yet completly ignoring his conversion rate in your analysis? So by the same definition, Shaq and Duncan are also great FT shooters in your opinion..they just don't convert at a reasonable rate?

Hmmm........

No one is saying you said they were accurate. We are saying it is silly to say a person is great at converting a shot when their accuracy isn't great. If I shoot at someone 100 times and hit him 5 times, I am not a great shooter because I shot 60 more shots than the next person. It is silly to not include accuracy in your analysis of a great shooter..that makes no sense.

And I could argue that Manu is a better shooter than Kobe. Of course, I would also have to include where they took shots from, and the fact that Kobe shoots while being the #1 option while Manu doesn't. Unlike you, I like to look at the complete picture when analyzing data.

[kingmalaki]

Don't put words in my mouth. I only wrote what was stated... don't extrapolate my statements.

How is asking you a question putting words in your mouth?

To the point where they were hitting game winning jumpers.

BTW it was noted who was double-teaming, and playing completely out of character. Ummm that would be Rodman. His antics cost us that series, considering that the Spurs had dominated Houston during the Regular season that year...

12/10/94 SAS..108..at..HOU..96
12/23/94 SAS...98......HOU...96
01/13/95 SAS..100..at..HOU..103
01/26/95 SAS..103......HOU..100
02/21/95 SAS...98..at..HOU...97
03/05/95 SAS..124......HOU..103

and the year after for that matter.

12/23/95 SAS..110......HOU...95
01/09/96 SAS...88..at..HOU...82
02/15/96 SAS..108..at..HOU..112
02/18/96 SAS...93......HOU...79

to the tune of 8-2....

The only anomaly then (in the playoff series that took place between those two seasons) was the disappearance of the Spurs' role players and the emergence of Houston's.

I already agree with you that the Rockets roleplayers outplayed the Spurs role players that series. However, Hakeem completely outplayed Robinson as well, and both players were doubled.

Nice to know your objectivity is around to catch em' all.

Anytime bro!!!!

[Galileo]

FOULS: Duncan vs Akeem;

I already showed above, that on the average...

* Duncan draws one more foul per game than Akeem.

* Commits one less foul per game than Akeem.

I do not think I can stress how important this is to winning basketball games.

That one extra foul on Akeem will send him to the pines if he already has 1 foul in the first quarter, 2 fouls in the second, or 3 fouls in the third quarter. It will cripple the Rockets if he fouls out or gets the foul in OT.

On the other hand....

That one extra foul that Duncan draws may send his defender to the pines, or cripple the team in crunch time.

I vote for Duncan.

[bobbyjoe]

FOULS: Duncan vs Akeem;

I already showed above, that on the average...

* Duncan draws one more foul per game than Akeem.

* Commits one less foul per game than Akeem.

I do not think I can stress how important this is to winning basketball games.

That one extra foul on Akeem will send him to the pines if he already has 1 foul in the first quarter, 2 fouls in the second, or 3 fouls in the third quarter. It will cripple the Rockets if he fouls out or gets the foul in OT.

On the other hand....

That one extra foul that Duncan draws may send his defender to the pines, or cripple the team in crunch time.

I vote for Duncan.

Oh, really?

If that is true, why did Olajuwon log more minutes per game in his prime than Duncan did?

You're putting way too much emphasis on Fouls. I've never heard anyone use a Blocks/Fouls ratio until you did.

If you are more active defensively like Hakeem was (Hakeem impacted games defensively at the perimeter and in the post, unlike Duncan) you are probably going to committ more fouls.

You keep harping on this stat, but ignoring the blocks and steals stats.

When Hakeem can get you about a full 2.0 more combined blocks and steals than Duncan, that means he's taking away easy scoring opportunities for the opponents twice a game more than Duncan and it's very likely that these are becoming fastbreak opportunities for his team.

In reality, it's almost an 8 point swing to right off the bat get 2 more blocks/steals because most of the time you're taking 4 points away from the opponent and getting 4 for your team.

If the tradeoff for this drastically superior defensive thievery is one extra foul a game, dont kid yourself that every coach in the league would more than happily take it.

Also, bear in mind, during the time Duncan has been a Spur, he's either had David Robinson or Bruce Bowen guard the other team's most proflic scorer.

From 99-03, Robinson guarded Shaq, not Duncan

When the Mavs play the Spurs, Dirk is guarded by Bowen, not Duncan.

In Hakeem's prime, he guarded Shaq, Robinson, and Ewing mano y mano. He didnt have a HOF Center alongside him who could take the tougher matchup so he could draw a weaker matchup and thus make it easier for him to steer clear of foul trouble.

This is why everything must be looked at in context.

If you read this thread, not even the most pro-Duncan of the pro-Duncan crowd have said anything as ridiculous as Duncan > Hakeem defensively. Not even a comparison there...

[bobbyjoe]

How is asking you a question putting words in your mouth?



I already agree with you that the Rockets roleplayers outplayed the Spurs role players that series. However, Hakeem completely outplayed Robinson as well, and both players were doubled.



Anytime bro!!!!

It's pretty obvious Olajuwon was extensively double teamed that series, given that he averaged 5.5 assists a game that series, nearly double his career average.

[Cry Havoc]

How is asking you a question putting words in your mouth?



I already agree with you that the Rockets roleplayers outplayed the Spurs role players that series. However, Hakeem completely outplayed Robinson as well, and both players were doubled.



Anytime bro!!!!

I have a curiosity about this thread that no one has bothered to bring up.

Why on God's green Earth were the Rockets taking so many 3 pointers?

I mean, if you were a coach, and your team was a poor shooting 3 point team, would you tell them to keep leading the league in attempts?

Sounds like Rudy realized that he had a weapon beyond the arc. But maybe it was only an "average" weapon instead of a "great" one.

[bobbyjoe]

For someone who takes so much pride in putting down others and saying others were illogical, you sure did find a way to show us how your logic works.
Just because the Rockets were great with shooting 3s doesn't mean that Hakeem wasn't great in the middle. It was said numerous times throughout this thread that the 3 pt making abilities of the Rockets were enhanced by the presence of Hakeem in the middle, and I have went on a number of times how the Rocket's offense was inside-out (ie: not outside-in). But it is a fact that Hakeem works best and benefitted with having great 3 pt shooters around him because it opens up the middle for him to operate. It is that simple. For a fan of the Rockets, you sure didn't know how your team benefitted from the 3 pt barrages.
If I say Warren Buffet made so much money because he works hard, it doesn't mean I am saying he is a dumbass idiot, you got that?



Once again, in 99, the Spurs were ranked 25/29 in the league in 3 pt %, while the Rockets in 94 and 95 were 15th and 14th. The % are the same, but the era certainly wasn't. So it is OK to compare hard exact numbers when it comes to 3pt%, but not when it is about les won. Gotcha.



Such as you claiming different era whenever it suits you, but completely ignoring it when it refutes your points.

And why are you looking only at 99 and not years like 2005 and 2007?

Gee, I wonder why...

[Cry Havoc]

And why are you looking only at 99 and not years like 2005 and 2007?

Gee, I wonder why...

As was stated earlier in the thread (not accusing, I just realize this thread is insanely long), everyone agrees that in 05 and 07, Duncan has had much more assistance winning the le.

Even so, I have to wonder what the Spurs record would be without Duncan for a full season.

[Indazone]

Ok, you're standing on the playground. You are about to start a game of 3 on 3. The teams are set with two friends vs two friends with a choice between Hakeem or Duncan. Who do you pick to be on your team. $50,000 rides on the winner and first to 20 wins. Who's it gonna be?

[bobbyjoe]

I have a curiosity about this thread that no one has bothered to bring up.

Why on God's green Earth were the Rockets taking so many 3 pointers?

I mean, if you were a coach, and your team was a poor shooting 3 point team, would you tell them to keep leading the league in attempts?

Sounds like Rudy realized that he had a weapon beyond the arc. But maybe it was only an "average" weapon instead of a "great" one.

Houston didn't have guys like Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker who could consistently beat wing players off the dribble and create shots.

Besides Hakeem, they didnt have many offensive weapons until Clyde Drexler was along. Teams like this usually jack more 3 pointers than they should.

And no one said the Rockets were "poor" 3 point shooters. Those are your words. What they were is an average 3 point shooting team who had a knack for hitting the key or clutch 3 pointer in the 4th Q and in the playoffs due to guys like Horry, Elie, and Cassell.

Regardless of what spin you use, you can't be considered great at something if you perform right at the league average at it in terms of efficiency.

Timely, yes. Great, no.

[Indazone]

They jacked up 3's under Rudy T because his offense consisted of Iso plays. When you ran out of time or you couldn't get the Iso, guess what..take the shot before the clock runs out. I always remember when Charles Barkley got the ball on the left block. Everyone else ran to the right side leaving Charles alone with his defender. Then he'd back his defender down with his big butt and throw up a prayer. He was sort of effective but I also thought it took the rest of the team out of it's offensive rhythm.

[bobbyjoe]

As was stated earlier in the thread (not accusing, I just realize this thread is insanely long), everyone agrees that in 05 and 07, Duncan has had much more assistance winning the le.

Even so, I have to wonder what the Spurs record would be without Duncan for a full season.

I would throw in 1999 as well, quite frankly.

2003 I will give you as a year where like Hakeem in 1994, it was basically a one man show with marginal help.

But in 1999, David Robinson was still a force in this league. I can only imagine how hard it would be to get any sort of basket inside the paint if you had 2 freaks like young Hakeem and a 99 DRob on the same team.

Robinson was still a great defender then and his D on Shaq was a huge reason why the Spurs played the Lakers tougher than any team in the NBA.

No, the Spurs didnt have the quality of shooting around Duncan and creators that they do now, but Sean Elliott and David Robinson alongside you in the frontcourt is still a lot of quality help.

Not to mention Jaren Jackson caught fire that postseason at the right time and did his best Reggie Miller impersonation for about 5-6 weeks.

Regardless, some here make it sound like Duncan has dragged teams which always had the supporting cast level of the 2003 team to le after le, which is simply a stretch.

[ambchang]

And why are you looking only at 99 and not years like 2005 and 2007?

Gee, I wonder why...

Because he said the same % or higher, and the year with the same % was 99.
That was compared with 94, the worse of the two championship seasons for the Rockets.
Does that answer your inquisitive mind?

[ambchang]

Ok, you're standing on the playground. You are about to start a game of 3 on 3. The teams are set with two friends vs two friends with a choice between Hakeem or Duncan. Who do you pick to be on your team. $50,000 rides on the winner and first to 20 wins. Who's it gonna be?

How about a game of 5 on 5, will millions of dollars at stake?

[mavs>spurs2]

the flip flop artist ambchang and galileo with his "jordan sucks" takes are really making this thread unreadable

[ambchang]

So basically you are saying Maggette is great at getting to the FT line and making FT's is an important part of his offense...yet completly ignoring his conversion rate in your analysis? So by the same definition, Shaq and Duncan are also great FT shooters in your opinion..they just don't convert at a reasonable rate?

Hmmm........
And I could argue that Manu is a better shooter than Kobe. Of course, I would also have to include where they took shots from, and the fact that Kobe shoots while being the #1 option while Manu doesn't. Unlike you, I like to look at the complete picture when analyzing data.

It probably would have resembled an argument if I haven't already addressed the fact that the opposition had a choice of intentionally fouling others to put them at the line because it hurts the team Duncan/Shaq was on due to their inability to convert, and then get the ball back, and if I have never addressed the fact that Duncan and Shaq were way below league leading % (probably in the 30 to 40% range) rather than a measily 3%, but that is your choice.

LOL at your complete picture comment. I mean, up to this point, you were the one ignoring the fact that the Rockets based their offense on 3 pt shooters around Hakeem, you were the one ignoring the fact that they lead the league in 3 pt shot and created a new breed of teams that utilizes an almost unstoppable inside-out offense, I was the one noting that the Rockets led the league in 3PM with a % that was only 3% less than the league leading team.

I am sure you were looking at the whole picture. So what cons utes as a great shooting team?

[ambchang]

I have a curiosity about this thread that no one has bothered to bring up.

Why on God's green Earth were the Rockets taking so many 3 pointers?

I mean, if you were a coach, and your team was a poor shooting 3 point team, would you tell them to keep leading the league in attempts?

Sounds like Rudy realized that he had a weapon beyond the arc. But maybe it was only an "average" weapon instead of a "great" one.

I mean, why base this argument on simple logic, when Rudy T himself stated that 3 pters were a big part of their game.

Rudy T is such a suckass coach, he intentionally asked his team to bomb away because they suck at it! Hakeem basically carried the team to those two les despite the poor supporting cast (I am not kidding, somebody actually stated this a few post back).

[Galileo]

Oh, really?

If that is true, why did Olajuwon log more minutes per game in his prime than Duncan did?

You're putting way too much emphasis on Fouls. I've never heard anyone use a Blocks/Fouls ratio until you did.

If you are more active defensively like Hakeem was (Hakeem impacted games defensively at the perimeter and in the post, unlike Duncan) you are probably going to committ more fouls.

You keep harping on this stat, but ignoring the blocks and steals stats.

When Hakeem can get you about a full 2.0 more combined blocks and steals than Duncan, that means he's taking away easy scoring opportunities for the opponents twice a game more than Duncan and it's very likely that these are becoming fastbreak opportunities for his team.

In reality, it's almost an 8 point swing to right off the bat get 2 more blocks/steals because most of the time you're taking 4 points away from the opponent and getting 4 for your team.

If the tradeoff for this drastically superior defensive thievery is one extra foul a game, dont kid yourself that every coach in the league would more than happily take it.

Also, bear in mind, during the time Duncan has been a Spur, he's either had David Robinson or Bruce Bowen guard the other team's most proflic scorer.

From 99-03, Robinson guarded Shaq, not Duncan

When the Mavs play the Spurs, Dirk is guarded by Bowen, not Duncan.

In Hakeem's prime, he guarded Shaq, Robinson, and Ewing mano y mano. He didnt have a HOF Center alongside him who could take the tougher matchup so he could draw a weaker matchup and thus make it easier for him to steer clear of foul trouble.

This is why everything must be looked at in context.

If you read this thread, not even the most pro-Duncan of the pro-Duncan crowd have said anything as ridiculous as Duncan > Hakeem defensively. Not even a comparison there...

Akeem averaged less than 37 minutes per game in each of his first 5 seasons.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...olajuha01.html

Duncan averaged more than 38 minutes per game in each of his 6 first seasons.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...duncati01.html

* Well, you heard it hear first, Blocks to Fouls ratio.

Duncan is better than Akeem in blocks to fouls ratio. And Duncan is better at team defense as well. The Spurs have better defensive points stats and FG% defense than the Rockets. The Spurs have been in the top 5 in BOTH categories all 10 years Duncan has been in the league. Duncan won more first team All-defense awards than Akeem, and made the all-defense team more.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Duncan was defensive player of the year in '08, and he should have been voted this honor a long time ago.

Duncan also had 4 blocks in the first 17 minutes of game one of this year's NBA Finals, including one on Lebron. Basically, they had the series wrapped up in 1 1/2 quarters. Lebron was so intimidated, he did not make a field goal until well into the second half. This is what Duncan does on defense, he makes strategic blocks, just like Bill Russell.

* Robinson guarded Shaq, except in the 4th quarter, OT or when Robinson was in foul trouble, whenever the coach wanted to keep Shaq away from the basket, or the Spurs got behind. Hakeem had Sampson & Thorpe for help, just like Duncan had Robinson. Now Duncan has Oberto.

* Duncan does not guard Dirk because Dirk is a three point shooter, and it would be stupid to put you best defensive big man out on the perimeter.

Duncan guarding or not guarding someone has nothing to do with ability and everything to do with strategy.

Duncan is the most underated player of all time for one simple reason, he does not put up a huge scoring average.

Duncan got over the hype of scoring average a long long time ago, when he was 14 and led his team to an undefeated record (after losing every single game the previous year).

PS

The Celtics have never had the NBA scoring leader, yet have won 16 NBA les.

[ambchang]

And no one said the Rockets were "poor" 3 point shooters. Those are your words. What they were is an average 3 point shooting team who had a knack for hitting the key or clutch 3 pointer in the 4th Q and in the playoffs due to guys like Horry, Elie, and Cassell.

Regardless of what spin you use, you can't be considered great at something if you perform right at the league average at it in terms of efficiency.

#1: Somebody, though not use, did use the term suckass to describe the Rocket's 3 point shooting. But that guy is a clown and can be ignored.
#2: Based on your definition, Iverson is not a great scorer, neither was Larry Bird or Michael Jordan, they were merely converting at slightly below 50% in their careers. In fact, in 1986, Bird was only 1.5% above league average and 14% off the league leader.

[ambchang]

the flip flop artist ambchang and galileo with his "jordan sucks" takes are really making this thread unreadable

Quote me, I challenge you to quote me, tell me when did I EVER said the Rockets were accurate.

Speaking of flipflopping was it you who said the Rockets sucked ass in 3 pt shooting? How did that come along? Tell me again how they "sucked ass".

[mavs>spurs2]

Quote me, I challenge you to quote me, tell me when did I EVER said the Rockets were accurate.

Speaking of flipflopping was it you who said the Rockets sucked ass in 3 pt shooting? How did that come along? Tell me again how they "sucked ass".

You didn't say the Rockets were accurate.

You said they were a great 3 point shooting team, then went on to say that they weren't accurate.

THOSE ARE CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS YOU ARE CHALLENGED IF YOU CANT SEE THAT

[ambchang]

You didn't say the Rockets were accurate.

You said they were a great 3 point shooting team, then went on to say that they weren't accurate.

THOSE ARE CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS YOU ARE CHALLENGED IF YOU CANT SEE THAT

Are you re ed? Can you read?

I said they were a great 3-point shooting team, and that I said I never said they were accurate. I never said they were inaccurate, that was YOU who said it.

I did say about 15 times that they were a great shooting team because they were #1 in 3PM AND were only 3% off of the #1 team in the league in terms of %.

I am having trouble dumbing down this any further. I am not sure how many times I can say the same thing over and over and over again.

I have a 16 month old nephew right beside me now, I am sure if I explain to him that me saying "Kid, I never said you do not stink.", he would not take it as me saying that he does stink.

[ambchang]

Oh, and quote me, and tell me how the Rockets sucked ass in 3p shooting.