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Maybe he meant how Starks shot the Knicks out of game 7.
The arguments are certainly much more laid out that the previous two threads you posted, and I think they are very valid arguments, and not surprisingly, most of the arguments that were listed in this thread.
And once again (I probably said it 3 times already), on a game of one one one, I will pick Hakeem, every day of the week. He was simply a better defender, and his moves down low was sick. I think Duncan has a better jumper out to 18, but Hakeem was too quick for Duncan to guard.
On the other hand, Duncan's defense (especially man to man) was nothing close to Hakeem, Hakeem was a force, and of all the players I saw, only David Robinson was better on defense (yes, i am a Spurs fan).
However, to start a franchise, I will pick Duncan 7 times out of 10, maybe 6.
The reason is because Hakeem is very dominant of the ball on offense, and his passing skills are not as polished as Duncan. He was great with 3 point shooters around him, and was fantastic drawing double teams and kicking it out for a 3 point shot, but either because of lack of ability from teammates, coaching or otherwise, he couldn't pass to cutters as well as (See Drexler vs. Manu/Parker), nor could he pass to another low post scorer (see Thorpe) as well as Duncan could (see Oberto, Robinson, even Nazr).
On defense, Duncan is a very smart defender, he fouls less, rarely leaves his feet, and covers his teammates as well as Hakeem. It is just easier to build around Duncan You can have the 99 team, the 03 team, or the 05/07 team (I think those two teams were very similar, just that the 07 team was better). The 94 and 95 Rockets team, other than Thorpe and Drexler, were essentially the same. And both of them were Hakeem and a bunch of 3 point shooters.
Maybe he meant how Starks shot the Knicks out of game 7.
Duncan vs Shaq
In the post-Jordan era, only two players can claim to be the best, Duncan and Shaq.
Shaq's only claim over Duncan is that he beat the Spurs in '01 and '02.
Let's take a look at all their playoff matchups. If Duncan > Shaq, then Duncan > Akeem:
1999
Spurs win 4-0
Duncan per game
29 points, 10.8 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 2 blocks, 4 fouls, 11.8 free throw attempts
51% FG, 81% FT
Shaq
23.8 points, 13 rebounds, 0.5 assists, 1.8 blocks, 4.3 fouls, 15.3 free throw attempts
49% FG, 48% FT
2001
Lakers win 4-0
Duncan
23 points 12.3 rebounds, 4.3 assists, 4.3 blocks, 4 fouls, 9.3 free throw attempts
48% FG, 62% FT
Shaq
29.3 points, 13 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1.3 blocks, 3 fouls, 7.8 free throw attempts
54% FG, 58% FT
2002
Lakers win 4-1
Duncan
29 points, 17.2 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 3.2 blocks, 3.4 fouls, 12.4 free throw attempts
42% FG, 77% FT
Shaq
21.4 points, 12.2 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 3 blocks, 3.6 fouls, 7.2 free throw attempts
45% FG, 64% FT
2003
Spurs win 4-2
Duncan
28 points, 11.8 rebounds, 4.8 assists, 1.3 blocks, 3.5 fouls, 9.5 free throw attempts
53% FG, 75% FT
Shaq
25.3 points, 14.3 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 2.8 blocks, 3.3 fouls, 10 free throw attempts
56% FG, 63% FT
2004
Lakers win 4-2
Duncan
20.7 points, 12.2 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 1.7 blocks, 3.5 fouls, 9.5 free throw attempts
47% FG, 67% FT
Shaq
22.5 points, 14.5 rebounds, 2 assists, 4.3 blocks, 4 fouls, 10.3 free throw attempts
64% FG, 44% FT
Summary
Duncan
25.8 points, 12.9 rebounds, 4.1 assists, 2.4 blocks, 3.6 fouls, 10.4 free throw attempts
48% FG, 73% FT
Shaq
24.2 points, 13.5 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 2.8 blocks, 3.6 fouls, 10 free throw attempts
54% FG, 54% FT
WINS
Duncan 11 >>> 44%
Shaq 14 >>> 56%
Series wins leading to NBA le
Duncan 2
Shaq 2
Other teams beating Duncan in NBA playoffs, besides Lakers:
'98 Jazz, '06 Mavs
Other teams beating Shaq in NBA playoffs, besides Spurs:
'94 Pacers, '95 Rockets, '96 Bulls, '97 Jazz, '98 Jazz, '04 Pistons, '05 Pistons, '07 Bulls
[Shaq's team didn't make the playoffs in '93]
I fail to see how either player has much of an advantage over the other in their head-to-head matchups.
So given that only two other teams have defeated Duncan in the playoffs, compared to 8 other teams that have beaten down Shaq, I rank Duncan> Shaq.
Head to Head playoff series:
Shaq 3 > Duncan 2
Duncan was also guarded by J.R. Reid and Robert Horry in these matchups where Shaq had to contend with David Robinson and Tim Duncan
Edge: Shaq
You left off the 2004 playoff series (by inserting the tally of series wins leading to a playoff le, as if it didnt matter who won if the winner didnt take it all) obviously because the Spurs and Duncan lost it. Unfortunately it did happen and your post stating let's look at "all their playoff matchups" somehow tried to spin around the final tally of 3>2.
You cant have it both ways. If you want to say Hakeem< Duncan because 2<4, then Duncan will always <<< Shaq because Shaq won the majority of the head to head playoff matchups, even when he was guarded by a HOF Center in David Robinson where Duncan had creampuff matchups relatively speaking like a skinny Robert Horry, washed up Horace Grant, J.R. Reid, and a 40 year old Karl Malone.
Or you could say Duncan has 4 Rings as the man while Shaq has 3?
Shaq also had Kobe Bryant on those teams. The way I remember it Kobe was the one hitting the 4th quarter daggers. The 2001-2002 Spurs did not have Manu Ginobili. Duncan has 4 rings, and Shaq has 4 rings, so they are equal in accomplishments. Shaq was a maybe a little more dominant in his best 2-3 seasons, but he was allowed to play in a way that many fans consider unfair. Also, Duncan has never been accused of being a cancer, and Shaq has.
One of the things about Duncan that is different from other elite players is that he DOES NOT PLAY FOR STATISTICS. Most top tier players always play with an eye on their stats, especially those that are in contention for leading the NBA in scoring. Tim Duncan is not concerned with those things. He doesn't jack up a few more shots in the 4th quarter of a meaningless game just to pad his stats. I think you have to take that into account when comparing scoring averages. If Duncan really wanted to average 27-28 ppg he could. His FG average would go down a little, and the Spurs as a team would suffer, but he could do it.
So who had to face Duncan Reid, Horry or Shaq?
Or all of them?
Shaq is lazy on defense, that's for one.
You could play p&r against him and you was succesfull beating him (not team)
* Duncan gets double teamed all the time, just like Shaq. And Duncan is better at passing out of the double team.
* Duncan has way better assist numbers than Shaq.
* The 2004 stats ARE listed, I didn't forget about it.
* Duncan had a superstar teammate in '99, while Shaq had a superstar teammate in '01, '02, '03, and '04. So it should have 4-1 Shaq if they were equal players.
* Duncan outplayed Shaq in the '02 series.
* Duncan went to the line more than Shaq in their head to head matchups, which is supposed to be the advantage for the "dominating" Shaq.
* Duncan raised his scoring vs Shaq, while Shaq's scoring went down. Duncan outscored Shaq. And scoring is supposed to be Shaq's specialty.
* Duncan true FG% (combining FG & FTs) is 56% in their combined matchups, to 54% for Shaq.
* Duncan shot 73% from the line, which is supposed to be his biggest weakness.
* Shaq is dominating against average defense. But Duncan has figured out if you can keep Shaq away from the basket, he is not dominating. The fact is, Shaq was NOT dominating against the Spurs, even in their championship heydays of yesteryear and yore. Meanwhile, Duncan dominance extends beyond the numbers.
Duncan was being held by the likes of Robert Horry. Shaq had to contend with David Robinson and Duncan helping weakside (which contributed to Kobe getting off because at that time you couldn't not have a body on Shaq). The two situations really aren't the same. kobe was the difference in those series but he was able to have such an impact due to Shaq's precense.
You mean the David Robinson that had a floating particle in his back during the '01 Series? The one who had lapses during the playoffs where he would lose all sensation in his legs? That Robinson?
Robinson at less than 50% was easier to abuse than the one Shaq faced in 1999; where ultimately Shaq was taken to school and swept yet again.
The one that played solid D on Shaq in every LA/SA series so Duncan didn't have to do it. No one can stop Shaq but David made him work for his points, and there is a difference between working on one 7 footer with another helping weakside, as opposed to just working on 1. Let's not discount the Admiral's roles on those le teams. You don't beat LA without him.
And if you are saying Robinson was not fully healthy in the 01 postseason..you lost that year, right?
I think that was the point. Robinson was good enough that even when not totally healthy (though I'm pretty sure he was over 50% for the 99 season) he was still a force.
Robinson in his prime would have given Shaq fits all over the place. , you could set an ISO for D-rob and let everyone clear the court. Shaq wouldn't stand a chance.
Just a thought.... my goodness, imagine David in his prime on the Suns team. Not that it matters, but it's fun to think about. I wonder if he could outrun Marion up the floor.
Yes he was healthier in '99.... and what was the outcome? Spurs 4 - Lakers 0.
Robinson's Head to Head vs. Shaq before his injury in '97 was 8 to 2 or something as lopsided as that. Robinson was also one steal or a block (can't remember which) from recording a quadruple double against Shaq. It's pretty clear to me that Robinson in his prime, did if fact own Shaq.
I would venture to say yes.... first day of training camp from 1990-1995 Robinson was always the fastest on the court....
I read most of the arguments in this topic and I have to dispute some things regarding Hakeem. Some of the pro-Hakeem supporters act like he guarded the likes of Robinson and Shaq in their playoff battles. Um, no he didn't. The Rockets doubled both DRob and Shaq in both series. In that 7-game series versus the Knicks, Hakeem outscored Ewing in every game but he was only better than Patrick in Games 6 & 7. Pat outrebounded and blocked more shots inthe series. If Starks makes that 3-pointer in Game 6, folks wouldn't be talking about Hakeem the way that they do now. And someone brings up Hakeem beating the Lakers in the '86. Well, he certainly didn't beat up Boston in the Finals that same year. And yeah, everyone brings up the fact that Hakeem beat Ewing, DRob and Shaq but Shaq also beat Hakeem, DRob and Duncan.
Hakeem was a great player but I wouldn't say he's miles ahead of Duncan. Defensively, as good as Hakeem was, he's also in the Top 10 All-Time with personal fouls.
I wish I could've seen D-Rob and Timmy play together in their primes.
Chicago wouldn't have won 6 championships, nor would the Rockets have gotten 2.
It would've rivaled the Boston Dynasties. Okay, maybe I'm exagerrating a little.
hey, dont most spurs fans always pull the "its january, suns/mavs cant do nothing in playoffs, we win only the games that count"?
tahts exactly what the great legend Hakeem Olajuwon did: win the games that count
The thread that wouldn't die comes back after 4 months.
And Timmy has done that much more than Hakeem. ;-)
Both are great players, but Duncan exceeded Hakeem about 3 years ago.
Which Rockets-related thread will last longer? This thread or the official Luis Scola thread?
That's tough.
I love Hakeem. I would say they're both pretty damn close. I couldn't pick one over the other.
Hakeem gives money to Al Queda.
Duncan > Hakeem
Very mature.
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