S*** hits the fan in Georgia: war with Russia?

[RandomGuy]

Last I checked Kosovo was a province of ... wait for it ... wait for it ... That's Right!!! Kosovo is a province of Serbia. NATO crossed the internationally recognized border between Serbia and Albania.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008.../russia.kosovo

... after indications of mass slaughters of civilians in a directed ethnic cleansing campaign where thousands of unarmed men where lined up infront of mass, shallow graves and shot in the back of the head.

Georgia was indeed outgunning the armed sepratists in Ossentia, but there were no indications of intential butchering.

Analogy fail. Abort, and retry some other lame-ass attempt at moral cover.

This is purely a war of Russian aggression. I expect a Russian occupation of Georgia, and probably some kind of annexation.

Of course, after our -stained attempt at doing something similar in Iraq, the US has little moral authority when it comes to condemning such things.

US moral authority=yet another casualty of Iraq.

[RandomGuy]

People of the world. You deceive! World mass media conduct propagation of a false information. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia has attacked South Ossetia. At 3:30 08.08.2008 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered into city Tskhinvali. Artillery bombardment all the day long proceeded, fights with use of tanks and heavy combat material, both against ossetic armies, and against peace inhabitants were conducted. 1400 civil people already were lost. The Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and prompting of the world in republic and protection of the Russian citizens living on territory of South Ossetia. Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on eve of Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism. Proofs and video-materials look on : http://www.1tvrus.com/ , http://www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_main.main , http://www.rian.ru/ , http://www.vesti.ru/news , http://news.ntv.ru/ , http://www.ren-tv.com/ , http://www.newsru.com/ .We shall tell is not present to WAR!!!

LOL

Russian "peacemakers". ROFL

[RandomGuy]

If I were the Georgians, I would be taking notes from what happened in Chechnya, and start waging a very aggressive PR campaign.

http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=chechnya

http://www.amnesty.org/russia/chechnya.html

or , pick any other of a rather wide number of articles:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...ya&btnG=Search


The Military Amateur Hour known as the Russian Army will spank Georgia with sheer numbers, but will pay a heavy price. http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...army-intro.htm

[leo_d]

lol @ Russia talking about the right of self determination of the south-ossetians and ignore the right of self determination of the chechenians.

lol @ George W. Bush asking for Russia to respect georgian territorial sovereignty after he violated Irak`s sovereignty for over 5 years.

lol @ Georgia talking about Russia invading the country, while they have the third largest amount of troops in Irak.

[MannyIsGod]

You need only look at this to see in foreign relations its never about right and wrong so why do people try to act that way. Its only about who makes the best chess moves.

[Indazone]

George Bush caused all this!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The rough part is what can the U.S. do? The only thing I can even think of is get NATO to immediately admit Georgia into the organization, but who knows how Russia reacts in that case.

Reportedly Russia has requested to meet with reps from NATO this evening and/or tomorrow morning, so we'll see what comes of that...

[Indazone]

George W, should have given Russia a missle battery to defend Moscow against the terrorist regimes from the Middle East. From the man who once looked into Putin's eyes and said I saw his soul. Why is George W only giving missle defense shield capability to Nato countries and former Eastern Bloc countries that come over to Nato? Putin even offered an alternative. The Azerbaijan location as a forward location for missle defense. We were only told this wouldn't work and would leave gaps in our missle defense. Does anyone seriously believe all this BS?

Cheney and Bush are Neocons.

Unless of course, Russia is still the evil empire.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Alot is going to depend on how much the Georgian politicians and Georgian masses continue to react to USA's predictably benign responses to this event.
Portraying USA and the Western European countries as betrayers to the Georgian cause and democracy serves only to Georgia further, and they should realize that soon enough, that is, if Russia doesn't completely occupy the country.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

http://uk.truveo.com/The-Simpsons-So.../id/1103639424

Top 10 Simpsons scene.

[Tully365]

Russia is dealing with a threat that is sitting on its border. Do you think the USA would show more restraint if Mexico shot down two of our planes? One of the many problems that the Bush administration has is the complete inability to be objective. Russia was "evil" in the past for having a war with the humble religious Afghan people, and now for fighting with Georgia, but the US is "good" for fighting against the "religious extremists" in Afghanistan, the Taliban, who are the direct descendants of the Mujahadeen, who the elder Bush called "freedom fighters" and who the Pakistani President at the time Benazir Bhutto warned were shady characters to ally ourselves with-- a smart prophecy, seeing that their supporters recently assassinated her while leaving a military dictator in power in Pakistan for the US to support... All over the world right now, political leaders are shrugging their shoulders in disbelief and, most likely, in pathetic amusement, at the very idea that George Bush, who invaded Iraq and has been there for 5 years, is telling Russia that their "aggression" of less than one week is "unacceptable."

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Do you think the USA would show more restraint if Mexico shot down two of our planes?

If we were knowingly flying them over their country and strafing them? Sure.

[Tully365]

If we were knowingly flying them over their country and strafing them? Sure.

Nice job avoiding the topics of Bhutto, Mujahadeen, supporting a military dictator (with WMDs), etc.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Nice job avoiding the topics of Bhutto, Mujahadeen, supporting a military dictator (with WMDs), etc.

I didn't avoid . You suck at reading comprehension.

[Tully365]

I didn't avoid . You suck at reading comprehension.

Do your owners feed you regular food or a special blend for angry little pitbulls?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Do your owners feed you regular food or a special blend for angry little pitbulls?

Cute. Again, if the US of A was strafing and s ing the border towns of Mexico, I'd expect and wouldn't blame Mexico one ing bit for retaliating. That's what you asked, so, however many times I need to say it to get it through that thick, cavernous, hollow cranium of yours, given that scenario I wouldn't be offended in the least if Mexico got tired of that and shot back.

I'm sorry you can't comprehend that, but you sure do seem bent on trying to prove you're smarter while proving you're an idiot through and through.

[Tully365]

Cute. Again, if the US of A was strafing and s ing the border towns of Mexico, I'd expect and wouldn't blame Mexico one ing bit for retaliating. That's what you asked, so, however many times I need to say it to get it through that thick, cavernous, hollow cranium of yours, given that scenario I wouldn't be offended in the least if Mexico got tired of that and shot back.

I'm sorry you can't comprehend that, but you sure do seem bent on trying to prove you're smarter while proving you're an idiot through and through.

ruff ruff

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan..._b_118029.html

On Sunday I talked with Zbigniew Brzezinski, the elder statesman who was national security advisor to President Jimmy Carter, about the Russian invasion of Georgia. He long tangled with Soviet power. Now he takes on Putin:


Nathan Gardels: What is the world to make of Russia's invasion of Georgia?

Zbigniew Brzezinski: Fundamentally at stake is what kind of role Russia will play in the new international system. Unfortunately, Putin is putting Russia on a course that is ominously similar to Stalin's and Hitler's in the late 1930s. Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt has correctly drawn an analogy between Putin's "justification" for dismembering Georgia -- because of the Russians in South Ossetia -- to Hitler's tactics vis a vis Czechoslovakia to "free" the Sudeten Deutsch.

Even more ominous is the analogy of what Putin is doing vis-a-vis Georgia to what Stalin did vis-a-vis Finland: subverting by use of force the sovereignty of a small democratic neighbor. In effect, morally and strategically, Georgia is the Finland of our day

The question the international community now confronts is how to respond to a Russia that engages in the blatant use of force with larger imperial designs in mind: to reintegrate the former Soviet space under the Kremlin's control and to cut Western access to the Caspian Sea and Central Asia by gaining control over the Baku/ Ceyhan pipeline that runs through Georgia.

In brief, the stakes are very significant. At stake is access to oil as that resource grows ever more scarce and expensive and how a major power conducts itself in our newly interdepedent world, conduct that should be based on accommodation and consensus, not on brute force.

If Georgia is subverted, not only will the West be cut off from the Caspian Sea and Central Asia. We can logically anticipate that Putin, if not resisted, will use the same tactics toward the Ukraine. Putin has already made public threats against Ukraine.

Gardels: What, if anything, can the West do to contain this revived Russian behavior?

Brzezinski: Not only the West, but the rest of the international community, must make it clear that this kind of behavior will result in ostracism and economic and financial penalties. Ultimately, if Russia continues on this course, it must face isolation in the international community -- a longer range risk to its own well-being.

The United States, particularly, shoulders the major burden of mobilizing an collective international response. This invasion of Georgia by Russia is a very sad commentary on eight years of self-delusion in the White House regarding Putin and his regime. Two memorable comments stand out. First, when Bush first met Putin and said he looked into his soul and could trust him. Second, not long ago, Condi Rice claimed that American relations with Russia have never been better in history!

Gardels: John McCain has already suggested that Russia be expelled from the G8. Is that something you would contemplate?

Brzezinski: The G8 is an impotent fiction anyway. But It has to be much more than
that. It has to be a concerted effort on all levels -- at the United Nations, in the Atlantic Council, in the EU or in NATO, in consultation with the Japanese, the Chinese and others -- to convey to Russia that, whatever grievances it may have, it cannot resolve them by a deliberate policy of dismembering an adjoining state and
trying to obtain political domination over it.

Gardels: Is the West obliged to help Georgia resist the Russian attack with some kind of military support?

Brzezinski: The question is not what obligation the West may have at the moment. The question is about our longer term interest. If a Russia, which misjudges its power and its capacities embarks now on a blatantly nationalistic and imperialistic course, we will all suffer.

Therefore it is all the more important that Russia be stopped now by mobilizing a concerted, global effort to oppose and condemn the Russian invasion. Ultimately, that could lead to economic and financial sanctions, though one would hope that other Russian leaders, including its business elite, will have cooler heads and be more aware of Russia's own vulnerabilities. Russia is not ready to sustain a new cold war.

Gardels: Should the Atlantic Alliance urgently induct Georgia into NATO as one response?

Brzezinski: The West desisted from extending the NATO "membership action plan" to Georgia -- a preparatory stage for becoming a member -- out of deference to Russian objections. It is now clear that the deference shown to Putin, in the face of his obvious ambitions, has been counterproductive. In view of what has happened, NATO ought to extend the membership action plan to Georgia, therefore reinforcing the commitment NATO made in Bucharest last March
to the effect that NATO intends, at some future point, to include Georgia.

Gardels: You haven't mentioned Dmitri Medvedev, the the Russian president, once, but only Putin. Does Medvedev have any function in this?

Brzezinski: As much to do with it as the formal head of state of the Soviet Union in 1950 had to do with the running of the Soviet government. Does anyone remember his name? But the real ruler of the Soviet Union had a name that most still remember -- and it rhymes with Putin.....















Brzezinski has always viewed Nato as a positive western tool for extending American hegemony. Interesting to note how he seems to blow over the possible use of a Western military response and intimates that Russia is economically weaker than the media makes it seem. Unfortunately, his breed of hawk requires firm support from Western European nations......I guess the next chapter will unfold when we find out what exactly went on between Sarkozy and Russia.

[spurster]

It looks like BushCo was doing something right and tried to stop Georgia from starting its initial push into South Ossetia.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/wa...n/13diplo.html

August 13, 2008
After Mixed U.S. Messages, a War Erupted in Georgia
By HELENE COOPER and THOM SHANKER

WASHINGTON — One month ago, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived in Tbilisi, Georgia, for a high-profile visit that was planned to accomplish two very different goals.

During a private dinner on July 9, Ms. Rice’s aides say, she warned President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia not to get into a military conflict with Russia that Georgia could not win. “She told him, in no uncertain terms, that he had to put a non-use of force pledge on the table,” according to a senior administration official who accompanied Ms. Rice to the Georgian capital.

But publicly, Ms. Rice struck a different tone, one of defiant support for Georgia in the face of Russian pressure. “I’m going to visit a friend and I don’t expect much comment about the United States going to visit a friend,” she told reporters just before arriving in Tbilisi, even as Russian jets were conducting intimidating maneuvers over South Ossetia.

In the five days since the simmering conflict between Russia and Georgia erupted into war, Bush administration officials have been adamant in asserting that they warned the government in Tbilisi not to let Moscow provoke it into a fight — and that they were surprised when their advice went unheeded. Right up until the hours before Georgia launched its attack late last week in South Ossetia, Washington’s top envoy for the region, Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Fried, and other administration officials were warning the Georgians not to allow the conflict to escalate.

[spurster]

[RandomGuy]

Brzezinski has always viewed Nato as a positive western tool for extending American hegemony. Interesting to note how he seems to blow over the possible use of a Western military response and intimates that Russia is economically weaker than the media makes it seem. Unfortunately, his breed of hawk requires firm support from Western European nations......I guess the next chapter will unfold when we find out what exactly went on between Sarkozy and Russia.

Russia's GDP in the 90's was roughly the size of Belgium's.

It's military is ill-led, ill-equipped, untrained, and unmotivated.

Some of that may have changed recently with a lot of money flowing in from oil revenues, but Russia's absolute embarassment in Chechnya, and ongoing hazing scandals do not paint a picture of a country at it's zenith.

[RandomGuy]

Hmm, browsed through the CIA factbook. Russia's GDP is still less than that of Germany.

"antiquated industrial base" was another phrase that stood out.

Oil revenues have been kind to them, though, and allowed them to pay down a lot of debt and build up a good chunk of foreign currency reserves.

[ThunderStix®]

I thought we were supposed to protect freedom everywhere. That's the rhetoric you've been espousing lately, right?

What he meant was, lets see if they make peace before we start thinking about getting involved.

If Russia doesn't stop the attacks, we may have to. We'll see.

[Nbadan]

Some of that may have changed recently with a lot of money flowing in from oil revenues, but Russia's absolute embarassment in Chechnya, and ongoing hazing scandals do not paint a picture of a country at it's zenith.

Wait a minute...couldn't you say the same thing about the U.S foray into Iraq? Militarily, a bunch of untrained, under-equipped, and under-supplied fighters were threatening to turn Iraq from the U.S. win column to the U.S. tie column - until the U.S. military figured out it was cheaper, and less hurtful politically for Dubya, to bribe them into not fighting us and doing our fighting for us against Al-Queda in Iraq (whatever that is)...

[Cant_Be_Faded]

we've got to protect our situation in relation to iran. that probably means talking loud and doing nothing

maybe europe can, er, do something for once. this is their turf imho

lol

no ...bunch of spineless do nothings.