For all we know, your Slomo too....
wow. that's some original cartoon. it makes me think the author's strip has been in a coma for 8 years.
Wow, interesting spin you placed on my words.
Knowing how affirmative action works is all that anyone needs. For years, college admissions in many schools have taken in lower qualified minorities over higher scoring whites to meet affirmative action quota's. Places that use affirmative action would take people by color over higher achieving whites. I think the few cases related to this practice over the last few years have put a stop to that, but there are those who have positions earned, but in the bottom of the class, driving the bottom lower than it would otherwise be.
I'm sure there are some who feel that way as well. However, it is not an intelligence issue. It is a cultural learning issue. This doesn't limit it to black/white, but the communities and values that people learn. In most places, the inner city schools are very poor compared to rural schools. Most of the black community lives in places of lower living standards, higher crime, and the social values are simply different by the environment.
100% wrong. That's what the democrats tend to do. People like me simply ask that the best qualified person be selected. If the best is a 'Negro,' That's fine with me, and most conservatives.
However... There is that occasional racist out there.
I would only want to know if he made it to medical school by merit, or by affirmative action.
It really does hold people back
People who dislike affirmative action for what it is are skeptical when it comes to black professionals. It does created a real act of discrimination, conscience or not, by people like me. If we only could trust they really were qualified rather than being given special favors by affirmative action, it would make a big difference.
Do you want a real discussion on this topic, or not? Hitler has no place here.
That would be all fine and dandy, but by saying something like smart people avoid black surgeons, you presume that the vast majority of black surgeons (all of whom graduated from accredited medical schools, passed state boards, served years of fellowships and residencies, and were then granted staff privileges by the hospitals in which they operate) are unqualified. That sort of generality -- particularly given the field you're talking about -- is both hideously unfair and terribly unfounded.
What the generality in your statement also fails to account for is the number of whites who are admitted to medical schools because of who they are or who they know and not because they're wonderfully qualified.
At this point, I'd argue that the number of unqualified or underqualified blacks who get into professional schools is about equal to the number of their white counterparts.
Maybe so, but that is a real fear that affirmative action has cause in some people's mind. True or not, many people wonder if a person is qualified to acceptable standards. Again, I agree this is a form of prejudice.
Sure, this happens too. It is lesser known that all the stories over the years about affirmative action, and the debate of affirmative action between the left and the right.
Keep in mind, I am mainly speaking of a true perception among people. Not what is true. You you disagree that such perceptions are never considered by consumers or employers? It would never be a thought if the quota system never existed.
That may be true. I doubt it, but I will not contest the possibility.
Fear and reality are two very different things. It strikes me as terribly irresponsible (to say nothing of being prejudicial and unfair) to perpetuate that fear with statements that aren't tied in any real way to reality.
I suspect that it's lesser known because it's just much easier to play on fears that track long held prejudices than to actually examine the facts -- aren't you big on getting to the real truth and not working from assumptions or generalities (I guess that's true everywhere except choosing a surgeon, eh?). Besides, you can't rail about the evils of affirmative action if you're admitting that there are qualified minorities who are entering fields that were once dominated by whites.
I'll keep in mind that you believe that most people are predisposed to prejudices and struggle with the thought that most of the minorities who achieve high levels of success in their fields are in those positions presumably because of some racial preference and not because they've demonstrated themselves to be qualified.
I can tell you for a fact that it was true in the professional school that I attended. I can also tell you, as a matter of observation, that it was equally true in the undergraduate ins utions that I attended.
All the black surgeons I know are "Oreos".
you have to admire how ES and FWDT remain civil in their discussions with an admitted racist.
There you go again showing your utter stupidity. How about looking up the meanings of the following words:
Bigot.
Racist.
Prejudice.
Discrimination.
They are loosely realated, but each are also unique.
I don't know about you, but just because Extra didn't use any conventional insults doesn't mean he didn't actually insult him.Sarcasm is a wonderful tool...
If you prejudge someone based on their race, you are a racist. Absent any other information regarding surgeons' medical abili es, you prejudge a black surgeon to be inferior in ability by no other standard than his race, ergo you are a racist.
Not "a different form of prejudice", just plain old fashioned racism.
Sorry, you are wrong. To be a racist specifically requires that you think your race or another is superior to another. Perceived bias of traits that may change on farther knowledge do not qualify for that definition, especially when you are relating to individuals of the race rather than the race. To be a racist is for example for a white to believe his race is superior to all blacks.
Discrimination can be because of a racial perception, but it does have it's own set of meanigs:
People discriminate all the time. I like tall thin women over those of normal weight. I choose high fat cheese, whole milk, etc. over low fat. It simply tastes better. People choose items they buy often from perceived qualities when they see things in commercials, but they may not be choosing the best. Same with employment opportunities. Employers often believe the black candidates made their way by quota rather than merit. It may or may not be true, but often perceived. I don't hang around blacks who talk like they're out of the ghetto. However, I have black friends who can carry on with proper dialog. However... I treat whites the same. It is more often that I avoid certain blacks, but it is based on how I perceive them as being raised. Not because of there skin color. To discriminate because of affirmative action is not being a racist. You might be able to class it as racialism, but not racism.discrimination (plural discriminations) From the Latin "discriminare" meaning to "distinguish between"
1. Neutral discernment.
2. The act of discriminating, distinguishing, or noting/perceiving differences which exist.
3. The state of being discriminated against, distinguished from, or set apart.
4. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.
5. The arbitrary imposition of unequal tariffs for substantially the same service.
6. The quality of being discriminating; acute discernment; as to show great discrimination in the choice of means.
7. That which discriminates; mark of distinction.
Again, I really believe affirmative action has done more harm to the black community than good.
geeez, can't you at least be a proud racist?
Another interesting comment: seemingly, you've just acknowledged that you allow your perceptions about how you think blacks were raised to make a difference in the way that you interact with blacks who haven't yet shown you their "social merits" while presuming more frequently that whites are somehow worthy of your time despite having no knowledge of their backgrounds?
Maybe it's just me, but I find it really offensive to presume (as you seem to) that most blacks couldn't be upwardly mobile without affirmative action and that any blacks who are upwardly mobile are suspect because you presume them to be products of affirmative action until proven otherwise and discriminate accordingly.
I also love use of rhetoric about discriminating in all sorts of ways that have nothing to do with repression or historical biases as a proxy for justifying ongoing discrimination that functionally repressive (smart people don't go to black surgeons) and is based entirely upon supposition and politics.
Not true. Initial perceptions are not the same as knowledge gained usually. We all have our own social standards when it comes to people we choose to associate with. I did say that I don't hang around whites with the same qualities. As for how I think they were raised? I do hold of that judgement until I see enough to understand them. Remember, much of what I said earlier relates to general thoughts that others have too. Discussions with other whites I know bring out alot of concerns and more that I have raised. However, of all the people I associate with, I would only call one of them a racist. Note... He is someone I associate with. Not a friend.
I do not presume blacks are not upwardly mobile. I have worked with several blacks who are highly skilled professionals. I know better than to think such things. I have also seen the products of affirmative action who clearly did not deserve the positions they attained. And yes, I have seen the same among whites who gained their position by who's ass they kissed, or who they knew.
It is a sad supposition. However, I must be one of the only whites who do speak of it. There are many who do feel the same about blacks because of affirmative action. This would not exist if affirmative action didn't, and in today's world, I believe it is the leading cause keeping qualified blacks down. Because employers fear they might be hiring a product of affirmative action.
It was a good forum.
Are you proud to have an IQ below 80?
like i said before, please don't let your kids read your post. it's even more embarrassing for them to see your weak attempts to backpedal. ( if thats even possible)
Well, they have a college education and laugh at people like you who don't know the proper meaning of words.
At least they will go places in life. Will you?
and they sit around watching you post in spurstalk? that must sting.
you mean when they're sufficiently bored with watching you post?At least they will go places in life.
gee, i hope so.Will you?
Of course initial perceptions are not the same as gained knowledge. But throughout this thread, you've insisted upon your default position of skepticism towards blacks -- indeed, you've said that you "avoid certain blacks" based solely on your perception of their backgrounds and without regard to the merits of the individuals you're avoiding. Though the rest of what you've posted isn't entirely clear, it does seem as though your relationships with whites are not laced by such skepticism. Don't you see something fundamentally prejudicial about such a thing -- would you think that a black person whose views were directly opposite of yours would be prejudiced?
So this is the "I'm not really expressing my thoughts as much as I am expressing the thoughts of my racist friends" defense? Don't hide behind someone else's thoughts -- even if someone else suggested to you that smart people don't see black surgeons, you're the one who expressed that thought publicly. Take responsibility for the asinine statements you make.
But, again, you've said in essence that smart people should be skeptical about whether successful blacks have gained those positions via affirmative action. It's hard to square your swearing off of prejudicial rhetoric with your avowed belief that successful blacks are presumably successful because affirmative action got them there. I don't really see how you get around that without completely reversing yourself about the initial perceptions you bring to the table about those who are black and successful -- your hypothetical surgeon, for instance. It would be one thing if you were skeptical of all successful people, but you've said your not. You're skeptical of successful blacks, which certainly seems to suggest that you find it unlikely that most blacks could be successful without affirmative action to propel them.
Only insane employers would reject a black candidate who shows himself or herself to be capable. Fortunately, like insane employers who can change the beliefs that inform their hiring practices, bigoted whites can (believe it or not) simply choose to believe that blacks are capable and independently successful, whether their initial chance to prove that came about through leveling mechanisms or not. You choose to use affirmative action as a proxy for your beliefs because it somehow seems more civilized to couch your bigotry in socio-political criticism than to just overtly state your prejudices. It's really quite shameful.
Hope rather than confidence?
You must be an Obama supporter.
Hope and change.
Did he ever say what policies, what hope, what change?
Besides the change left in or pockets after raising taxes?
backpedal. you need a break.
FromWayDowntown;
Believe as you wish of me. It doesn't matter that much. People around me know the truth, and I don't know you, so you don't matter to me. I see you are prejudiced not to think outside the box. You obviously think any criticism of a black is racism. So be it. That is your trap, not mine. I try to explain how whites perceive blacks under specific conditions and you wish to assume the worse. Again, your trap. Not mine.
Keep in mind that such bias that you show keeps the discussion closed rather than open. Stay ignorant to others real thoughts if you like. Improper criticism simply closed the discourse. Open mind means open discourse. I guess I will not change your mind about me, so what's the point to continue?
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